Matt Hardy is not a Main Eventer

[Kronos]

I was just thinking about some of this stuff last night when I watched Superstars, as well as reading some of JR's comments about people being impatient or critical with new stars. MVP and Carlito main evented, and it solidified for me why MVP should never go above midcard. Can he wrestle? Of course. Do fans like him? Sure. But he's just missing that something - that star power that pushes one over the edge. and makes you really care what he does He's stuck at U.S. level because that's all he deserves. It's okay - someone has to put on decent midcard matches.

 

Hardy on SD was another example. Matt has done work with Drew two weeks in a row now. Crowds LOVE Matt, but he's just not quite main event calbre to me - there's something about him that does not scream SUPERSTAR. However, he can give some strong support to young guys coming up. Look at the program he had with Swagger - it basically MADE Jack, back in late 2008 (and in some ways, Matt helped to reignite Henry's career during that same era). It actually looks like it might be working to help make Drew Mac, too. I was laughing at how ridiculously lame Drew was at Mania, and I certainly never enjoyed him at all before. Yet somehow, in these last two weeks of SD, he's starting ever so slightly to become intriguing.

 

I guess this is more of a ramble than anything else. But whatever. . .

[Grimmas]

I've said the same thing about Christian for awhile.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The Matt Hardy/ McIntyre match on SD last Friday was fucking great. Hardy lost, but it was after the type of match that's meant to put a guy over BECAUSE he lost. The week before, McIntyre attacked him before the bel and laid Hardy out, all cocky and condescending...and did so because Hardy cost him the MITB match at Mania.

They have the rematch, and Matt is getting clobbered to the point where the announcers are saying maybe the ref shoud end this, the ref actually does try to stop it, but Hardy insists on competing. And then starts kicking ass, not for a few seconds..but for awhile. He's rubberlegged but doing it! He just may fucking win this match!

It takes a DDT on the floor and a head shot on the steel shit under the ring apron to put Hardy away.And after the 1-2-3 the cocky douchebag stands with one foot on Hardy's face, holding up the belt, looking down at Hardywith disdain, but obviously exhausted and almost spent.

 

Killer fucking match. And it put over Matt Hardy as the "WWE's Tommy Dreamer" character they've been hinting at for awhile.

[Loss]

To me, Miz is the guy they should push to the top. Too many false starts have already happened for Morrison and MVP. Morrison has been in the company for over five years, so I would think most fans have given up on him. MVP I think is good high mid-carder. Matt Hardy is his own worst enemy because of his Internet addiction. He's also not a good promo. That said, there are things he does really well, and he's in a good spot.

 

The ship has sailed on Christian, which is sad.

 

They'll never do it, but I like the idea of Miz being a top heel and a manager of other top heels, kind of an Eddie Gilbert role.

[Kronos]

And it put over Matt Hardy as the "WWE's Tommy Dreamer" character they've been hinting at for awhile.

Good thinking there. I wouldn't be opposed to that kind of role for him. It also fits what I was saying, a guy who can put over other guys without losing his face heat.

[Loss]

How did I forget Punk? Punk should be WWE's top heel for years to come. Sadly, what he's missing is that while he's had many good ones, he still hasn't been put in a position to deliver a classic match on PPV that people remember. I think that's what is missing to put him over the top.

[Kronos]

How did I forget Punk? Punk should be WWE's top heel for years to come. Sadly, what he's missing is that while he's had many good ones, he still hasn't been put in a position to deliver a classic match on PPV that people remember. I think that's what is missing to put him over the top.

I kind of chuckled when I just realized that Punk and Rey rassled at Extreme Rules LAST YEAR, too. Eh, well, it happens. Maybe they'll put on a slobberknocker -- they certainly hinted at it for Mania.

[kjh]

If the Internet was around 20 years ago, would we be saying the same thing about Bret Hart?

[MJH]

Well, no, but the precedent was yet to be set. I'm still amazed Bret became a main eventer. At least with Shawn as soon as he turned into a singles guy in 1992 there was a star quality to him, certainly more than Bret. Of course, if we're lead to believe that his 1989 singles run was a result, in part, to him getting the second most amount of fan mail or however that story went, there was an established affinity with the guy. Bret was never a star in that "it" factor sense, he just had a strong resonance with the fans, and I think the company's past the point of running with a guy on that account, or they would push Christian. Heck, he has more conventional "natural charisma" than Bret.

[Herodes]

Matt Hardy's problem is that 10 years on after the peak of The Hardy Boyz he's older, fatter and balding, yet still dresses in his late 90s teen gear and hasn't evolved at all character-wise. It's as if Shawn Michaels went straight from The Rockers into his current skinny, balding, cross-eyed phase without 92-98 ever happening. Hardy had some flashes where it looked like he could step up a few years ago when he was a heel feuding with Rey but it went nowhere, plus he's been totally overshadowed by his brother who did become a genuine star.

[spudz25]

I've said the same thing about Christian for awhile.

I agree whole heartedly. The only time I took think I could've taken Christian seriously as a possible main eventer was when he was teamed with Edge.

 

I think his TNA run proved to me that he's a mid card/semi main event guy that people like but whether heel or face will never get behind.

 

As for Matt Hardy, he's got that "it" that makes fans love him no matter what the promotion does to him, but again without his brother as his partner and even that is not enough by itself, they would need the proper push/angle to get them over as a consistnent main event team.

[jdw]

If the Internet was around 20 years ago, would we be saying the same thing about Bret Hart?

Perhaps, though people were talking about Bret in the newsletters in the late 80s, so by 1990 people were interested in a single push.

 

 

Well, no, but the precedent was yet to be set. I'm still amazed Bret became a main eventer. At least with Shawn as soon as he turned into a singles guy in 1992 there was a star quality to him, certainly more than Bret. Of course, if we're lead to believe that his 1989 singles run was a result, in part, to him getting the second most amount of fan mail or however that story went, there was an established affinity with the guy. Bret was never a star in that "it" factor sense, he just had a strong resonance with the fans, and I think the company's past the point of running with a guy on that account, or they would push Christian. Heck, he has more conventional "natural charisma" than Bret.

Bret had a different type of "it", though I tend to agree that it was a matter of resonance and affinity rather than pure charisma. What Bret had was of value because guys like Nash/Diesel could get "hot" or "cool", could be made champ but couldn't sustain it. We can blame Diesel on Vince "changing his character", but the reality is that the company changed Shawn's initially when he become champ, and they did plenty of things to unintentionally undermine Bret. Those two were able to sustain their connection with the fans, while Diesel died and really didn't click back in the WWF until going heel on Bret-Taker... and who knows how long he would have sustained that if he hadn't left for WCW.

 

I tend to think Bret was Misawa'ish, while Shawn was Kobashi. Not exactly in terms of work, but relative personality/charisma. Kobashi's charisma is right out there in the open, natural and impossible to miss. Misawa connection... very different. I wrote when he died that in the early 90s, hardcore fans didn't quiet get Misawa's connection other than he was the top guy on that side opposite Jumbo. But to a degree they were also hoping that they'd just get on with it so we could get to the good stuff where the more charismatic Kobashi and Kawada were the top guys.

 

But... in the end... it was Misawa who had that odd connection with the fans where they held him in a special, high regard.

 

We're not terribly good in promoting folks like that in the US. Tend to look for the Kobashi because it jumps out at promoters/bookers. Or when we have a Misawaish guy, try to get them to personality it up.

 

As far as the WWE pushing someone who doesn't have "it", they have. For more than a decade.

 

Trip.

 

It's worked on some level and at some times, even though I'm not a fan of his. But he really doesn't naturally have "it" relative to a *lot* of his peer group that came up in the 90s or came along after. I mean... compare him with someone who so totally didn't have "it" for years like Scott Hall, but as soon as they tossed him in the Razor gimmick he tapped into something within himself that was ridiculous... and ridiculously charismatic. [note: I know he flashed some of it with the last gimmick in WCW, but Razor was an entirely different leap forward]

 

Trip never has had that. He's pretty much had to bust his ass (generously) or overly forced himself (more reasonably) to try to be charismatic. He's one of those guys where you've always seen the "acting" behind what he's doing.

 

The WWE and no doubt Trip himself would claim that it's had success with him.

 

John

[rovert]

Imagine if twitter was around in the 80s

[El-P]

What about his brother. I really never bought him one second a as a main-eventer. I think his work pretty much sucks to begin with, and his character is... well, Matt Hardy on acid. I have no idea why he got bigger than his brother. He did fell from high places more often, that's the only thing I can see that put him over his brother.

[kjh]

As far as the WWE pushing someone who doesn't have "it", they have. For more than a decade.

 

Trip.

And in turn this has led to them pushing a lot of guys with less "it" than Trip, because we wouldn't want Trip to get overshadowed now would we? Such as Lashley, Kozlov, Sheamus, Drew McIntyre, Ted DiBiase and Cody Rhodes.

[sek69]

I'm all for a good HHH bashing, but I can't see how he would still be protecting his spot at this point of his career. He's established to the point where it wouldn't hurt him at all if someone overshadowed him at this stage.

[El-P]

I'm all for a good HHH bashing, but I can't see how he would still be protecting his spot at this point of his career. He's established to the point where it wouldn't hurt him at all if someone overshadowed him at this stage.

Because he's an insecure little bitch.

[kjh]

That seems to be the consensus opinion. Maybe if he had put over someone not named John Cena or Randy Orton over in the last couple of years, then I'd believe he wasn't still protecting his spot.

[artDDP]

I'm all for a good HHH bashing, but I can't see how he would still be protecting his spot at this point of his career. He's established to the point where it wouldn't hurt him at all if someone overshadowed him at this stage.

Because his mortal enemy got way over and left the business for greener pastures without getting buried and many fans think of that guy as the greatest of all time and he was not anywhere near as possessed by the business as Hunter. It eats the guy up that every one of his buddies have real, natural charisma and he just cannot come across as interesting, witty, eloquent, or cool.

 

So he'll wait until he's perceived by casual fans as the best even if it comes through attrition.

[Ronnie]

Trip never has had that. He's pretty much had to bust his ass (generously) or overly forced himself (more reasonably) to try to be charismatic. He's one of those guys where you've always seen the "acting" behind what he's doing.

It's clear when he's not acting and left to himself just how vacant he is.

 

Consider the unfunny dick comments in the early days of DX. They showed a total lack of wit, which I imagine was genuine.

 

There was the attempt to be funny in the commentary box once (Over The Edge '98?), when he inadvertently made it appear that he was acknowledging himself as bisexual. (I'm bi- a lot of things, but -lingual ain't one of them. Hey, did I just mean to say that?)

 

Consider the spiteful one-off comments aimed at Lilian Garcia ("horse face"), Masters ("The Incredible Shrinking Man"), or Cena's wresting ability (when promoting their WM match, bringing non-storyline things up to try undermining the man); I'd say those things don't involve acting.

 

Or consider the Trips on Larry King: Unsure, out of place, uncomfortable ... uncharismatic.

 

Because he's an insecure little bitch.

It comes across that way. I can't think of any reason that WWE would have sent out orders to Fighting Spirit Magazine not to show Triple H "in a defenseless or vulnerable position" when featuring screenshots of a video game, unless somebody with a lot of stroke specifically requested it. You'd have to assume that the source, even if dropped casually in a conversation with his wife over dinner, was the man himself. Otherwise, who else would think to make such a strange request about a particular wrestler?

[kjh]

I could see WWE making a similar request regarding Hogan in the '80s. Of course, he had a lot of stroke then too.

[Ronnie]

I think that his status was somewhat more integral to the success of the company too, which was being built really around the persona of Hogan

 

For a modern-day equivalent you'd have to think that Cena would be the preferred commodity to protect. That it's the boss's son-in-law, who has a history of seemingly having decisions made to protect his status that aren't necessarily in the company's interest (notably, allowing people who could overtake him to founder when the time to elevate them comes at his expense), invites a bit of speculation.

[El-P]

Trip never has had that. He's pretty much had to bust his ass (generously) or overly forced himself (more reasonably) to try to be charismatic. He's one of those guys where you've always seen the "acting" behind what he's doing.

It's clear when he's not acting and left to himself just how vacant he is.

 

Consider the unfunny dick comments in the early days of DX. They showed a total lack of wit, which I imagine was genuine.

 

There was the attempt to be funny in the commentary box once (Over The Edge '98?), when he inadvertently made it appear that he was acknowledging himself as bisexual. (I'm bi- a lot of things, but -lingual ain't one of them. Hey, did I just mean to say that?)

 

I remember that very well. I also remember than when Shawn left, Triple H the leader of DX wasn't over by himself. Actually, The Outlaws were more over than he was at this point.

What kills Triple H to me and make him so boring and painful to watch, is that he doesn't know his limitations at all. He isn't a great promo but love and can cut 20 minutes promos and TV. He isn't a great wrestler but he thinks he's Harley Race so he loves having those 20-30 minutes "epic", "classic" matches. It's unbearable to me.

 

When you think of guys who never had *it* either but were good upper mid-card workers, Shane Douglas and Jeff Jarrett were a lot better than Triple H ever was on every level (even though Jarrett is not a very good promo either).

[jdw]

It wasn't just the Outlaws. Chyna had stretches of being over as well. Trip seemed to be the *least* over of the four, but was the one pushed down everyone's throats.

 

He never really got truly over until paired up with Steph for the run through Vince-Mick-Rock. That "made" him. Some of what worked for himself is that he got to play an egotistical power hungry prick, which cuts pretty close to the truth. But most of it was how massively Vince-Mick-Rock put him over, and how freaking annoying Steph was (in a generally positive heat drawing way) in her role. And also how they pushed him: first heel to run the main at Mania, among other things.

 

A perfect storm, including Austin being out, work together to finally get Trip over. Think about it: three of the four most over characters of the Attitude Era all busting their hump to put him over, two completely doing it and the third, the second biggest star of the era, was booked to let Trip get over on him like really no other heel has gotten over on a mega-babyface in WWF/WWE history to that point.

 

Somehow I think all that is going to be forgotten in Trip's bio, and instead we'll just get a stat dump of doom on all the major shows he's headlined.

 

John

[1004Holds]

It wasn't just the Outlaws. Chyna had stretches of being over as well. Trip seemed to be the *least* over of the four, but was the one pushed down everyone's throats.

 

He never really got truly over until paired up with Steph for the run through Vince-Mick-Rock. That "made" him. Some of what worked for himself is that he got to play an egotistical power hungry prick, which cuts pretty close to the truth. But most of it was how massively Vince-Mick-Rock put him over, and how freaking annoying Steph was (in a generally positive heat drawing way) in her role. And also how they pushed him: first heel to run the main at Mania, among other things.

 

A perfect storm, including Austin being out, work together to finally get Trip over. Think about it: three of the four most over characters of the Attitude Era all busting their hump to put him over, two completely doing it and the third, the second biggest star of the era, was booked to let Trip get over on him like really no other heel has gotten over on a mega-babyface in WWF/WWE history to that point.

 

Somehow I think all that is going to be forgotten in Trip's bio, and instead we'll just get a stat dump of doom on all the major shows he's headlined.

 

John

The thing with Triple H is that I think his heel run from 99 up till the middle of 2000 worked so well because unlike the Rock or Mankind as heels, you had no reason to feel any sympathy for Triple H. He wasn't a badass like Austin, a smartass like the Rock, or a guy fighting for his boss's approval like Mankind. The first three were their real life personalities turned up by 10, but the fourth felt like he was actually an asshole in real life. Every time they interviewed this guy out of character, he came off like such a petty and bitter man and at the time I could never understand way. What I find funny is when I've talked to wrestling fans who were watching during that period, they felt the same why but mention that online and most think you're being a hater or someone who reads dirtsheets too much. I don't know about everyone else, but I didn't even know what a dirtsheet was back when I was really watching the WWF and you could tell just by watching the program who the company cared about and who they didn't regardless of actual talent. I mean, when it's gotten to the point that you've beaten over half the company, that's when it gets really ridiculous and excessive.