Dave Meltzer stuff

[jdw]

My intent wasn't to single you out. I realize it did read like that. If you did discuss Fujinami and Choshu during that stretch, that's great. I stand corrected. But it didn't take off in the way the pimping posts did, or the Flair and Jumbo revisionism, or the Brody talk. Those are all things that seemed to get more traction.

Because those were two extremes: they either pissed people off, or they liked them.

 

At the time, I thought Dylan's pimping of Fujinami-DK got traction. That may have played to me since I always thought TM-DK was overrated relative to TM-Kobayashi, even as I was forced to reference TM-DK at times in things I wrote simply because it was an analogy that hardcores got and it would take to long to explain TM-Kobayashi to them. Anyway, I don't think it was a small or short discussion on Fujinami-DK, nor that it was something Dylan brought up only once: it struck me that he went to the well on it a few times, and expressed Fujinami > TM... which of course worked for me as well.

 

John

[The Thread Killer]

WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Maple Leaf Gardens - February 15, 1987 (17,000)

Featured Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary with Billy Red Lyons subbing for Heenan during the Race / JYD and Harts / Bees matches

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/2/87: Ron Bass pinned SD Jones at 6:53 with a flying back elbow

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/2/87: Sika pinned Moondog Spot at 6:56 with a Samoan Drop

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/2/87: Cpl. Kirschner pinned Johnny K-9 (sub. for Butch Reed) with a Samoan Drop at 11:11; prior to the bout, Slick came to the ring and announced that Reed would not be able to compete because he was suffering from the flu; Kirschner then chased Slick backstage

Roddy Piper defeated Adrian Adonis (w/ Jimmy Hart) via disqualification at 10:07 after Adonis sprayed perfume in Piper's eyes; after the bout, a blinded Piper attacked the ring announcer and referee

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/2/87: Paul Orndorff (w/ Bobby Heenan) pinned Pedro Morales at 4:29 with his feet on the ropes after the momentum of a crossbody by Morales put Orndorff on top

King Harley Race (w/ Bobby Heenan) pinned the Junkyard Dog at 6:08 with a belly to belly suplex after JYD began attacking Heenan in the ring

WWF IC Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) pinned Ricky Steamboat at 13:39 with a reverse roll up and grabbing the tights for leverage

Prime Time Wrestling -3/2/87: B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart) in a non-title match at 7:37 after Blair - the illegal man - pinned Bret with a sunset flip off the top after the Bees used their masks to switch places in the ring.

 

2/87 Steamer-Savage in Toronto is one of the best WWF matches of the decade, and adds a missing component to the feud. But:

 

* we knew Steamer-Savage was one of the great feuds of the decade

* we had other matches between them that were top flight

* we had one other WWF MOTD candidate (setting aside arguments about the Mania match)

* we knew Steamer was a great worker

* we knew Savage was a great worker

 

I'm thankful that the 2/87 match is out there now. Fab match. But it adds to the margins of the big picture of the WWF in the 80s.

 

Not sure all of that is clear since it's a long response. My point is that the comment is "half true", and we can tend to make more out of what we're doing than really is there.

 

John

I was at that show.

 

Just saying.

 

Carry on.

[KrisZ]

This is funny.

 

WHAT DOES MORE DOMESTIC PPV BUYS?

WrestleMania 66.2%

GSP vs Diaz 18.1%

Sonnen vs. Jones 15.7%

I would not favor WrestleMania in this one. Very surprised at this result.

[jdw]

I think the majority of people visiting the site are Wrestling Fans more than MMA Fans, so you'd kind of expect that.

 

John

[rovert]

Check out the "ROH" letter by Empire Wrestling. New standards of self obsession has been set:

http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-top-sto...ke-roh-and-more

[Eduardo]

I just subscribed to Dave again, haven't had time to look through everything, did he write anything about Sigfried Stanke when he passed?

[KrisZ]

There is a blurb in the 2nd WON of the week

[EricR]

Check out the "ROH" letter by Empire Wrestling. New standards of self obsession has been set:

http://www.f4wonline.com/more/more-top-sto...ke-roh-and-more

Good Lord I just could not stop reading this. Who the fuck is this guy?

 

My favorite was him calling a bad Davey Richards match "spot-filled nonsense", and two sentences later praising a Davey Richards match for having "a ton of spots".

 

"Marx was in the midst of a great title reign that was putting PCW on the wrestling map."

 

Shane Marx is like the fakest indy goober name ever. It's like a name Chikara was going to give to a wink-wink kick pad-wearing "your name here" indy wrestler, but they felt the name Shane Marx would have been too "on the nose".

[rovert]

Stephen Platinum of Platinum Championship Wrestling:

http://clatl.com/binary/7719/1302673026-dscn1352.jpg

 

Amusingly looks like Russo.

[Strummer]

Never heard this one before although Bobby did seem pissed about Goldberg losing in his 2001 shoot.

 

- 14 years ago today: Bill Goldberg's streak was ended when Kevin Nash beat him in Washington, DC to win the WCW title. Bobby Heenan and Mike Tenay left the arena with Tony Schiavone after the match. Heenan said that they just killed the promotion (which at the time had come off its best business month in history and one of the best months for any wrestling company in history). Tony Schiavone said he was insane. Mike Tenay agreed with Heenan. Two-and-a-half years later, Heenan was proven correct.

[Jingus]

Talking about the end of the streak either seems to devolve into fantasy booking, or a blanket statement that they shouldn't have tried the streak in the first place. As usual, Heenan takes the populist view on the subject which makes the most dollars and sense.

 

Here's a question: exactly how over was Goldberg in late '98, the last couple months before his title loss? Is there any truth at all to Nash & Co.'s claims that Goldberg's merchandise was selling poorly or that TV viewers changed the channel when Goldberg appeared?

[Cox]

Is there any truth at all to Nash & Co.'s claims

The answer to this is always "No."

[FLIK]

or a blanket statement that they shouldn't have tried the streak in the first place.

Who on Earth are the people making that argument?

[Matt D]

Is there any truth at all to Nash & Co.'s claims

Can we just stop and make a blanket statement here?

[Death From Above]

I mention this often, and I'm sure it applies to others. I was in high school during Goldberg's streak, and wresting was pretty hot among kids then. Literally everything you'd catch kids talking about was WWF Attitude Era stuff... except Goldberg. He was literally the only time WCW ever seemed to come up (even if there were nWo t-shirts to be seen). Killing Godlberg off was absolutely fatal to WCW's "cool factor", such as it existed, among that age group.

 

Remember that they followed it up with the Finger Poke of Doom to get the belt back to Hogan which no one really wanted at that point, and it went over about as well as a cup of water to a drowning man. People might have forgiven the first part if it had gone somewhere (basically "Godberg puts the nWo angle out of it's misery", which actually could have been something), but to compound it with a second big "what the hell" moment to reinforce the political status quo... well, that was WCW for you.

 

That was in the glorious days of Raw airing in Canada live on TSN Monday night, and Nitro airing tape delayed on the same network on Tuesday night. I'd hit up DDT Digest on Tuesday morning and have THE SCOOP on things.

 

I sort of miss those days.

[artDDP]

Heenan seems to have remained pretty consistent with his opinion on the ending of Goldberg's streak. I don't remember if he said anything prior to 2001.

[goc]

There are a LOT of people that look back on Goldberg's streak ending and point to it as the moment that killed WCW. I doubt there were a whole lot of people saying that AT THE TIME, whether on the internet or in the business.But I don't doubt that Heenan actually said it then because Goldberg was like the one thing he still seemed to care about in WCW at that point.

[KrisZ]

For those who haven't read it.....Dave's obit on Rip Hawk in the WON is fantastic. It's Dave at his best.

[Dylan Waco]

For those who haven't read it.....Dave's obit on Rip Hawk in the WON is fantastic. It's Dave at his best.

It's very good and as a MACW kid who still hears old timers talk about Hawk and Hanson I find it especially enjoyable. Having said that a lot of it is directly cribbed from Mike Mooneyham's larger piece on Hawk that was published in the Post and Courier (my local paper) earlier this year.

[Childs]

I liked the obit but god, that retelling of the history of Strikeforce was the WON at its most agonizing.

[WingedEagle]

For those who haven't read it.....Dave's obit on Rip Hawk in the WON is fantastic. It's Dave at his best.

Its hopefully in my mailbox downstairs and I can't wait to pick it up after dinner. Absolutely love the extensive obits/history pieces on guys or eras I'm not too familiar with.

 

I liked the obit but god, that retelling of the history of Strikeforce was the WON at its most agonizing.

On the other hand, this is why I can wait until after dinner to pick it up.

[artDDP]

There are a LOT of people that look back on Goldberg's streak ending and point to it as the moment that killed WCW. I doubt there were a whole lot of people saying that AT THE TIME, whether on the internet or in the business.But I don't doubt that Heenan actually said it then because Goldberg was like the one thing he still seemed to care about in WCW at that point.

Almost immediately after the promotion began to focus on Hogan, Flair, and Piper again and Goldberg was feuding with Bam Bam Bigelow until an injury took him off TV. The sentiment at my school around this time was not very positive toward WCW for the finger poke and NWO reunion.

 

I know Hogan-Flair MCMLXXVII at SuperBrawl wound up doing a pretty good buy rate but I'm not sure why because I think a lot of people turned off WCW pretty quickly after Hogan regained the title.

[MikeCampbell]

The beginning of the end for me and my friends liking WCW was when Flair started turning heel after winning the title from Hogan an Uncensored '99.

[sek69]

What killed WCW for me is when Luger won the title, only for Hogan to win it back days later. That combined with the ongoing gimmick where a team would beat the Outsiders for the tag titles only for Eric to find some loophole/threaten to fire the other team to get the belts back just made it obvious everything was just one big circle jerk and nothing would change.

[dr. David Rubio]

The beginning of the end for me and my friends liking WCW was when Flair started turning heel after winning the title from Hogan an Uncensored '99.

Incredible. This was it for me too. At this point in time, everything was comparative for me. And when they turned Hogan face and Flair heel, all i could think of was that the WWF would never do that with Austin and McMahon. That along with stuff like WCW referencing WWF (Juvy, Russo, Dustin Rhodes, "Old Age Outlaws") and wrestlers using WWF finishers (Disco, Booker, Rey) really turned me off.