Dave Meltzer stuff

[Ditch]

Did Meltzer blade a lot? His forehead looks like Carlos Colon's.

You're nuts. Those are just forehead wrinkles and his hairline.

[El-P]

Did Meltzer blade a lot?

That's the first thing that came to my mind too. Watched way too much wrestling.

[flyonthewall2983]

Has Dave ever explained why he hasn't brought his own podcast to iTunes?

What's to explain? Marks will pay him for it. Why make it for free?

 

What a lot of podcasts do, and I think this is smart, is make the last say 20 or 50 free but if you want the older ones you purchase a premium version of the show. Not articulating this right but Meltzer could do this and rake it in even more I think. Plus it would give his show much more exposure.

[cm funk]

Do people really subscribe to the Observer site for the podcasts, though? I've been an Observer site subscriber pretty much since the merger, and I don't think I've listened to more than ten podcasts in the time I've been a subscriber, and rarely in full. I understand the idea of making the podcasts seem like a value add vs. ordering the print subscription, but I don't think they are pushing subscriber numbers for the site THAT much, whereas being on iTunes would lead to more exposure for the site and might get them a bigger listenership.

Absolutely people subscribe for the podcasts. I'm under the impression that they are the biggest draw to the site, and I'm pretty sure Alvarez would tell you the same. There's probably more people who listen to the audio and don't read the newsletters than vice versa. I know personally, I read the Observer, but if there wasn't so much audio content no way would I be paying $10.99 a month.

 

I also agree that a free podcast on itunes is a good way to spread word of mouth and potentially attract new subscribers to the website. That's basically what WOL used to be. There's money to be made in the podcast market that they aren't fully tapping into.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Has Dave ever explained why he hasn't brought his own podcast to iTunes?

What's to explain? Marks will pay him for it. Why make it for free?

 

What a lot of podcasts do, and I think this is smart, is make the last say 20 or 50 free but if you want the older ones you purchase a premium version of the show. Not articulating this right but Meltzer could do this and rake it in even more I think. Plus it would give his show much more exposure.

 

 

That's what Marc Maron does with WTF. And it worked on me, I went premium to get more old shows

[Log]

Did Meltzer blade a lot? His forehead looks like Carlos Colon's.

You're nuts. Those are just forehead wrinkles and his hairline.

 

I know that. Doesn't he look like he spent a good deal of time in PR feuding with Abby, though? Looks like Dusty up there. Not quite New Jack or whichever Villano has the horrible scars, but you know.

[Guest Staples]

In the Observer, Dave goes off on a battle royal the Aces and Eights had.

 

Anderson went to do this one finger touch where Doc would act

like he was shot and go over, but Doc was going against the script. This reminded me of the

dying days of WCW and what I love so much about wrestling. In any other business, you’d

study a company that went down 90% in one year and learn what not to do. In wrestling,

because so few people actually study the business, they just copy what they’ve seen not

knowing what does and doesn’t work, and thus nobody learns from the failures and they keep

repeating them. I guess in a nutshell, that one sentence is all that is needed when a book about

the history of TNA is written. So anyway, Doc then attacked Anderson, and then Anderson

made a comeback and threw him over the top in 15 seconds. So in the end, they did

something to show that wrestling was completely fake on the guise it got heat on people who

haven’t had heat since they started.

Weird thing is...there was no worked shoot. The other guys got thrown over due to an agreement to let Anderson win. Festus, who is now known as Doc, I guess, didn't go along with it because he wanted a chance at the title. No idea how he got the impression that it was some kind of worked shoot. It's like saying Sting not wanting to drop his shot for Flair's title while part of the Horsemen was a worked shoot.

 

EDIT: Here's the match in question. Nothing really shoot-y about that.

[Rocco]

Yah no idea what he's talking about, in no way was it suppose to somekind of worked shoot.

[Ditch]

NWA ran a similar angle with the Horsemen and Luger to turn Luger face (only Luger actually won). Definitely not a Russo angle, though it sounds like it was executed badly.

[JerryvonKramer]

Can't believe I just spent 4 minutes of my life watching that shit.

 

Wasn't Meltzer's point that this was just the worst sort of Russo-y meta-wrestling crap in the first place?

 

Finger-poke-of-doom, NWO members lying down for each other etc. etc.

 

The fake Battle Royale draws attention to the fact that all Battle Royales are scripted.

 

Wasn't that his point rather than calling it a worked shoot?

[rovert]

Can't believe I just spent 4 minutes of my life watching that shit.

 

Wasn't Meltzer's point that this was just the worst sort of Russo-y meta-wrestling crap in the first place?

 

Finger-poke-of-doom, NWO members lying down for each other etc. etc.

 

The fake Battle Royale draws attention to the fact that all Battle Royales are scripted.

 

Wasn't that his point rather than calling it a worked shoot?

It was. What Staples should have quoted to give the full context:

 

Aces and 8s were backstage. They were formulating a battle plan but Doc was pouting. There was a plan and everyone agreed but Doc. Finally, grudgingly, Doc agreed.

 

Sabin did an interview talking about his two years off. He noted that he was only back for seven matches in between his knee surgeries, but one was a title match with Aries. He said if he had won that match, it could have been him cashing in the title to get the world title shot and winning it like Aries did. They were building up Sabin cashing in his title for the shot on 7/18.

 

Next was a Battle Royal with all the Aces and 8s guys. It was a mock match. It was booked as a complete joke as everyone took these totally fake bumps over the top rope to eliminate themselves. The idea was that it was already agreed that Ken Anderson was going to win. The idea is that by doing this, they didn’t fight each other and foiled Hogan’s plan to put them all against each other in the Battle Royal. It came down to Anderson and Doc. Anderson told Doc to eliminate himself and Doc went to the ropes to climb over. But then he changed his mind and came back in. Anderson went to do this one finger touch where Doc would act like he was shot and go over, but Doc was going against the script. This reminded me of the dying days of WCW and what I love so much about wrestling. In any other business, you’d study a company that went down 90% in one year and learn what not to do. In wrestling, because so few people actually study the business, they just copy what they’ve seen not knowing what does and doesn’t work, and thus nobody learns from the failures and they keep repeating them. I guess in a nutshell, that one sentence is all that is needed when a book about the history of TNA is written. So anyway, Doc then attacked Anderson, and then Anderson made a comeback and threw him over the top in 15 seconds. So in the end, they did something to show that wrestling was completely fake on the guise it got heat on people who haven’t had heat since they started. Then, in the heel stable, one of the guys who has been bullied around and refused to go along with it being fake, stands up. But, he’s beaten in seconds to show that he wasn’t even in the league of Ken Anderson to begin with. So exactly what are we trying to do here? Set the stage for Doc to turn, while establishing that Doc sucks before he turns so if he feuds with those guys, he won’t be a threat to them to begin with?

 

Backstage, Angle and Rampage confronted each other. Rampage asked Angle what he meant by saying that when he was ready, he’d have to go through Angle. Angle explained that Rampage can’t just go into pro wrestling without learning it and do well, just like Angle said he couldn’t just go into Bellator without training for it first. Jackson understood and they shook hands. That would have been cool after their first match, or first series was over. For them to shake hands and work out their differences before the first match they had that had a minuscule chance of getting actual interest, well, three of these last four segments would have fit in perfectly on any 1999 or 2000 WCW show.

[Guest Staples]

Uh...what? How is 'guy lays down for friend to win' meta in anyway? How does it "show that wrestling was completely fake"?

[Badlittlekitten]

Don't know what Dave's going on about to be honest. In fact that was the most amusing thing the Ace's and 8s have ever done. Loved the fact that Doc went against their plans and went babyface on Anderson yet he got thrown out anyway. He looked like a complete tit.

[JerryvonKramer]

Uh...what? How is 'guy lays down for friend to win' meta in anyway? How does it "show that wrestling was completely fake"?

It was the path that led to late WCW awfulness. That whole Aces and 8s thing is worked with a nod and a wink to the audience. My buddy soup would call it "cutesy". Finger Poke of Doom and all the other total shite with Hogan, Russo etc. after that point in WCW also had a fair dose of that, especially when the angles would reflect backstage politics. A lot of that stuff drew attention to the fact that wrestling is worked. It's the equivalent of a film commenting on its own conventions.

 

Not always a bad thing. But it's definitely meta. It's drawing attention to the constructedness of wrestling.

 

Find it difficult to understand how you guys are drawing the analogy with Sting and the Horsemen. Those guys did nothing to draw attention to the constuctedness of wrestling, they just didn't want Sting challenging for Flair's title.

 

This has a little bit of that, but it's also got a healthy dose of late WCW flavour. Not "worked shoot", but Finger-Poke-of-Doom-esque total crap. Meltzer's point is that this shit doesn't work. It didn't work in the late 90s and TNA should know that but instead they are just doing it again.

 

I, personally, don't care either way. But that's the point that Meltzer is surely making and it's not that difficult to get.

[Guest Staples]

Uh...what? How is 'guy lays down for friend to win' meta in anyway? How does it "show that wrestling was completely fake"?

It was the path that led to late WCW awfulness. That whole Aces and 8s thing is worked with a nod and a wink to the audience. My buddy soup would call it "cutesy". Finger Poke of Doom and all the other total shite with Hogan, Russo etc. after that point in WCW also had a fair dose of that, especially when the angles would reflect backstage politics. A lot of that stuff drew attention to the fact that wrestling is worked. It's the equivalent of a film commenting on its own conventions.

 

Not always a bad thing. But it's definitely meta. It's drawing attention to the constructedness of wrestling.

 

Find it difficult to understand how you guys are drawing the analogy with Sting and the Horsemen. Those guys did nothing to draw attention to the constuctedness of wrestling, they just didn't want Sting challenging for Flair's title.

 

This has a little bit of that, but it's also got a healthy dose of late WCW flavour. Not "worked shoot", but Finger-Poke-of-Doom-esque total crap. Meltzer's point is that this shit doesn't work. It didn't work in the late 90s and TNA should know that but instead they are just doing it again.

 

I, personally, don't care either way. But that's the point that Meltzer is surely making and it's not that difficult to get.

 

The Aces guys wanted to screw over the babyface Hogan. Instead of fighting, they chose Anderson, a higher ranking member, to be the winner. Doc didn't want that, so he went against their plan. Nothing about that hints that wrestling is a work. I don't see how that's difficult to get.

 

(I understand the comments about making Doc look like an idiot, but I wasn't disagreeing with that.)

[JerryvonKramer]

It's not outright saying that "wrestling is a work", but it calls attention to it. Just like Finger-Poke-of-Doom did. That was a heel plan too. Nothing about that directly says that wrestling is worked either.

 

This is a matter of interpretation I guess. I am only trying to relay what I think Meltzer is saying.

[Guest Staples]

How though? Guys colluding except for the one who takes a stand doesn't call attention to wrestling's worked nature in any way.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think the issue is not so much with their motivation (which was kayfabe enough), but the actual way it was worked. Doing things like fingerpokes and taking ridiculous bumps over the top rope as a joke are a visual reminder to the viewer that guys take pretty much the same ridiculous bumps in other matches too...except those are supposed to be serious. That is the way in which it calls attention to the worked nature of wrestling. It has nothing to do with their kayfabe motivation, and everything to do with them visually mocking the way matches are worked.

 

I think a better example to compare this to, instead of the Fingerpoke of Doom, would be the Shawn Michaels vs Triple H European Title "match" where they pretended to fight each other. Their motivation was kayfabe too (you're trying to force me to fight my buddy), but the end result was watching them go through what are supposed to be (in kayfabe) the legit motions of wrestling in a way that makes it visually clear that it isn't legit at all.

 

Not saying that you couldn't enjoy either of them, or couldn't ignore that aspect of it, but it is clearly meta.

 

This is basically just Meltzer's way of saying "We know it's fake, you don't have to beat us over the head with the fakeness."

[Badlittlekitten]

They didn't take ridiculous bumps though, they just jumped over the top rope and landed on their feet on the outside.

[Loss]

While it's a completely horrible idea that can be destroyed with even two minutes of thought, I would find a storyline where CM Punk exposed that COO HHH used to pay wrestlers to take dives for him oddly compelling.

[Jimmy Redman]

They didn't take ridiculous bumps though, they just jumped over the top rope and landed on their feet on the outside.

Fair enough. To be honest I am only basing this off the one part of the match I saw, where one of the guys (I want to say Brisco maybe?) took a "shot" and propelled himself over the top rope to the floor in basically the same way mechanically as he would if he was working properly (apart from landing on his feet at the end).

 

My general point is that the business exposing aspect of it wasn't in the storyline reasons for "faking" a match, but in the way that watching a "fake" match just sort of reminds you that all matches are fake, if that makes sense, because you see these guys co operate and take their own bumps and so on. Which we all know of course, but again it is just that "don't throw it in my face" thing.

[sek69]

Another great Foley interview, his discussion of the politics of playing Santa Claus is way more entertaining than you'd expect going in.

 

The discussion of how WWE nixed all in ring plans for him because he couldn't pass an impact testing was kind of scary. Obviously you know he's a guy who's likely to have issues in that area, but him talking about feeling he was underwater all the time and how he can't ride rollercoasters anymore was a stark reminder of how much punishment he's taken.

[cm funk]

I'm still amazed that TNA let Foley wrestle. Not just once, but multiple times. It was like watching a badly wounded animal fight for it's life. Entertaining on some level, but why put us through that?

 

I really wish Foley had quit after the Orton program. It was a perfect way to go out. The ECW thing with Edge and Terry Funk was good too. Everything since then has been really excessive. I know he loves the business and is a wrestler thru and thru, but damn, it is going to be so sad when he is completely braindead and unable to move around in his mid-50's. A sad tribute to THE BIZ

[Guest Staples]

Not Dave, but Alvarez stated on WOL that UFC fighters had no right to complain about pay because they agreed to the contract and they shouldn't be guaranteed a living just because of said contract. He then compared it to McDonalds making billions of dollars yet employees only making $12 an hour.

 

Has he ever complained about TNA underpaying it's workers? Just wondering.

[Death From Above]

I hope that McDonald's thing comes off better in context than it does out of it, because that's a seriously fucking stupid point of comparison beyond both things involving "someone that has a job somewhere".