Dave Meltzer stuff

[Bob Morris]

I think there's a lot of truth to what Wade said about Foley. We all know he had the ego, but it's pretty clear that all the damage done to his brain over the years has made him even more messed up.

 

Looking back, I think what really made Foley's first book seem so good was because it was the first time you had a wrestler who not only opened up about his past, but also showed he had good writing skills. But Foley certainly comes off in his first book as a guy who, while he can tell funny stories, acts like nothing was ever his fault and tries to come off as the nice guy who got screwed over by a lot of people.

 

He still seems to think of himself as this sympathetic character, but the truth is most people quit sympathizing with him some time ago and he acts like they should still feel sorry for him.

[Jingus]

I was gonna mention head injuries but forgot.

Tell me that awful phrasing was intentional.

 

He was having neurological issues over a decade ago (forgetting how to get home from the airport), so ...

Heck, it goes beyond that. I've known a couple of ring rats nice young ladies who told some pretty awful stories about Foley's condition after some shows. I'm talking about shit like endlessly stumbling around the hallways of an ordinary hotel, unable to find the elevator which was never more than a minute's walk away.

 

Part of it is Foley himself, part of it is wrestling changing, part of it is petty politics, but HHH's statement that Mick Foley can't relate to today's wrestling fan is probably accurate.

In what way? Aside from the inevitable creep of time slowly but firmly pushing Foley further and further out of the spotlight, what changes do you mean?

 

But Foley certainly comes off in his first book as a guy who, while he can tell funny stories, acts like nothing was ever his fault and tries to come off as the nice guy who got screwed over by a lot of people.

Well, he did get screwed over a lot. Angles like Lost In Cleveland could have been career-wreckers for lesser talents. He spent his entire career in the mindset of "guys like me never succeed", largely because they really don't. Who's the last big fat ugly guy who became a legitimate international superstar? I think you have to go all the way back to Dusty to find a comparable slob who somehow clawed his way to the top. And considering what he was willing to do to his body in order to get there, you can't say Mick didn't earn it.

 

But yeah, he doesn't like admitting he made mistakes. The "watch the elbow" story where he bumped off a phantom back elbow from Sam Houston comes to mind. Foley says he was confused as to what the hell Sam meant when he said "watch the elbow", and it sure would sound confusing to a first-timer. But he also specifically said that he still doesn't know what it means. Zuh? "Watch the ______" is an old Southern in-ring euphemism for "I am going to hit you with ______", occasionally with overtones of "and watch yourself, my _______ can be kinda stiff". It's a very strangely worded call, but it's hardly an obscure secret password that few ever learn. Even I know that, and I only had a dozen matches. A guy who spent as much time in Memphis and Dallas and Atlanta like Mick did would have to know what that meant. So why did he write what he did? Either he wanted to make himself look better, or he actually can't remember. Either one is worrisome.

[Al]

Well even if you're of a sound mind, how many little details do you forget over the years? I have a hard time explaining to my girlfriend conversations I had yesterday.

[MikeCampbell]

Wasn't one of Foley's comments in Have a Nice Day that his memory hadn't been affected much by all the shots to the head he took. Then, it came out in Foley is Good that he'd told a few fibs and passed it along as creative license.

[sek69]

Well even if you're of a sound mind, how many little details do you forget over the years? I have a hard time explaining to my girlfriend conversations I had yesterday.

 

....but I'm sure you didn't get lost on the way to the living room to talk to her. Sure, everyone forgets things and draws blanks, but someone who's had a well known history of head trauma shouldn't be lumped in with someone who forgot where they left their keys.

[Loss]

In what way? Aside from the inevitable creep of time slowly but firmly pushing Foley further and further out of the spotlight, what changes do you mean?

Wrestling has changed quite a bit since the Attitude era. Wrestling isn't as violent, and the guys on top are more ladies man types like Cena, Orton, and Batista. The law of diminishing returns is also a factor, as every appearance from him after 2004 got less and less of a pop. Wrestling is also more kid-friendly, and most of the fans watching during his heyday have moved on to other things. Foley wouldn't be able to do most of the things he did in the late 90s to get himself over now.

 

Also, promos like the one where he morphed back into Cactus Jack before One Night Stand in '06, while I enjoyed them, really felt like they went over the heads of most fans at the time. I remember feeling bad for him when watching on TV because the fans weren't really popping that much.

 

He also didn't really stand out that much as an announcer.

 

He's just another guy who retired and kept coming back.

[sek69]

I thought he was alright as an announcer, not great but certainly better than anyone they had at the time who wasn't JR.

 

Also after he left I wondered how tough it must have been for someone who probably has to focus more than most announcers to have someone in his ear telling him what to say. He tried to spin it as "Vince yelled at me a lot" but I think it was more "I couldn't keep my scrambled brain together when someone was yapping at me".

[rovert]

On not being able to relate to modern fans according to Colt Cabana Foley packed in his comedy show due Wrestling fans not supporting it as much had he hoped.

[Bix]

http://www.cagesideseats.com/2010/4/2/1402...edy-4-5ths-of-a

Colt finished up and out came Mick Foley. And just like that, a fun evening came crashing down. Mick was juvenile, rambling, and brutally unfunny. 70% of the stories he told were already in his books. He kept losing his train of thought and forgetting to make points with what he was saying. The crowd was really, really silent apart from occasional courtesy chuckles. Mick is likable enough, but it turns out that he doesn't really have much to say, and what he does have to say isn't funny. He rambled for well over an hour, managing to work in casual racism and misogyny, making light of waterboarding and torture by gargling water at Shawn Daivari's balls, and spend over ten minutes doing a note-for-note "Karate Kid remake" based around the premise "what if Mr. Miyagi worked at a massage parlor instead of being a carpenter." His brand of humor does not extend past junior high, and it's easy to see why he was in Vince McMahon's favor for so long. He would insist on using cutesy juvenile phrases for adult subject matter. Whereas, for example, Austin Aries referred to his "cock" and his "balls", Mick Foley would talk about his "weenie" or his "kumquats". It sometimes works on a TVPG wrestling show. It dies a horrible death in a night of adults-only stand-up.

[Cox]

I was gonna mention head injuries but forgot. He was having neurological issues over a decade ago (forgetting how to get home from the airport), so ...

Hell, when I went to my first ECW Arena show 15 years ago, my parents were waiting for me in the parking lot to take me home (and got to hear some of the lovely chants from ECW folk, I'm surprised I was ever allowed back). While they were waiting, Foley came up to my dad and apparently asked for directions on how to leave. Mind you, this was in 1995, and Foley had already been working for ECW at least a year, AND I know somebody at the fan convention the month before who had to help Foley get to the ECW Arena. I can understand getting lost once or twice, but frankly the ECW Arena is not THAT hard to find and there are signs all over Oregon Ave on how to get to every major highway in the area.

[kjh]

I always find it amusing when Dave outs Dana as his top UFC source:

 

I read this, text Dana White and 3 seconds later he confirms.

 

Amazing. I need to text Vince about Jericho's contract.

[Beast]

I always find it amusing when Dave outs Dana as his top UFC source:

 

I read this, text Dana White and 3 seconds later he confirms.

 

Amazing. I need to text Vince about Jericho's contract.

Yep well he's said many many times that he still finds it funny that with MMA he can talk freely about news and interviews with the owners and fighters, but with wrestling it's still hush hush. He's never made it a secret that Dana was a "source" or Joe Silva was for that matter. Everyone in UFC is. Why would he keep it a secret?

[rovert]

Yeah it is certionly not a secret that he talks to Dana a few times a week Scott Coker as well. Didnt Coker holt a press conference because Dave was there yet?

[Sean Liska]

I always find it amusing when Dave outs Dana as his top UFC source:

 

I read this, text Dana White and 3 seconds later he confirms.

 

Amazing. I need to text Vince about Jericho's contract.

It's a real sport. It's like Peter Gammons talking to Bud Selig.

[kjh]

I always find it amusing when Dave outs Dana as his top UFC source:

 

I read this, text Dana White and 3 seconds later he confirms.

 

Amazing. I need to text Vince about Jericho's contract.

It's a real sport. It's like Peter Gammons talking to Bud Selig.

Does Peter Gammons go on a message board and brag about how quickly Bud Selig responded to a private text message of his, while getting in a dig about another baseball bigwig who is less open with him? Not that it's a big deal or anything.

[Dan]

Found this in the 6-3-2002 WON. Dave's analysis of the Chyna-Buttafuco fight, and it's potential for freak-show MMA.

 

Joanie Laurer lost to Joey Buttafuoco by a majority decision in the main event of FOX's "Celebrity Boxing" show that aired on 5/22 and was taped on 5/15. A lot of people ripped on her for her performance, and it did totally kill her WWF gimmick and probably makes all the guys who put her over as strong because her then-boyfriend had so much influence on creative at the time feel like they were booked even more stupidly than it seemed at the time. Buttafuoco played a great heel and made her a tremendous baby face in the old Billie Jean King vs. Bobby Riggs mode [...] On one hand, she was giving up 75 pounds to a man who was flagrantly violating the rules and she got cleaner shots in. On the other hand, she was supposed to be a trained athlete going against a 46-year-old overweight garage mechanic and he did throw her around with ease, which supposedly would be her game, and when mixing it up, she was getting overwhelmed. If she wasn't wearing headgear, she'd have taken a pretty bad beating and probably been knocked out.

 

She went on Opie & Anthony the next day and tried to act like she won the fight, but said it was really weird to watch on TV seeing a man fight a woman. Jeez, now she's finally figured out what it's been like for the rest of us. Kind of an embarrassment for pro wrestling and a bad business move on her part to be put in such a situation but I guess she felt she was going to win. [...] Once in the ring, she showed more guts than a lot of people would, giving up so much weight and power (bet she wished she was still taking her Hulk Hogan vitamins after he was throwing her around). I hope the tape plays somewhere in Japan before New Japan makes fools out of their wrestlers by selling for her.

 

Considering that this match itself drew good TV ratings for the FOX network (the match itself did about a 7.5 rating [...] this is one that Pride should jump on if they're interested in a U.S. breakthrough. Maybe the man vs. woman thing is little too far out for them, and I personally hate the idea of it, but from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it can put them on the map. When it comes to this business today, we live in a freak show world. UFC absolutely can't do it because it makes them a freak show doing man vs. woman and they have commissions to answer to. Pride can do it in Japan and PPV it to the U.S. Laurer was put over strong to pro wrestling fans so it'll mean a little there, even though in Japan, nobody knows who Buttafucco is. If a TV match did a 7.5, a PPV rematch under Pride rules would probably do very well. It would do a lot better than Shamrock-Frye and probably cost them 530,000 to 550,000 per person to get it done instead of $350,000. [...] It would also be a great idea for NWA TNA, although not as good because the celebrity media wouldn't be half as strong pushing it if they believe it's part of a worked pro wrestling event. [...] MMA fans would hate it with a passion, and they should, but if they don't understand the business logic behind it, they're doomed to support a sport that will never break through ...

[artDDP]

When I read Observer Dave and then Yahoo! Dave I wonder how much his Yahoo! editor gets paid. Or does he only write concise, coherent columns for Yahoo! and have someone transcribe his ramblings for the Observer?

[Jingus]

Was anyone else shaking their heads at the officiating of those celebrity fights? Christ, I've seen more professional referees at local Toughman shows. Buttafuco was doing everything short of throwing powder in Chyna's eyes, and the ref just sits there with a blank stare and mumbles "keep fighting!".

[Guest Cerebus The Aardvark]

Was anyone else shaking their heads at the officiating of those celebrity fights? Christ, I've seen more professional referees at local Toughman shows. Buttafuco was doing everything short of throwing powder in Chyna's eyes, and the ref just sits there with a blank stare and mumbles "keep fighting!".

Was anyone aside from Dave and Jingus actually WATCHING those "celebrity" fights?

[artDDP]

Was anyone aside from Dave and Jingus actually WATCHING those "celebrity" fights?

I had forgotten all about them until this thread. So that makes three.

[Johnny Sorrow]

The "BOXING IS DEAD" because Dana White basically put on a fixed fight with his legend vs. a fat boxer who didn't care, so Dana can have an "EC-DUB! EC-DUB!" type moment, thing going on over there is hilarious.

[rovert]

If the past two years have proven anything then Pro Wrestling > MMA > Boxing

[artDDP]

I saw these figures elsewhere and I may be wrong, but, how can boxing be dead when their top fighters still command several million dollars a fight? UFC's top fighters don't even touch the mid-six figures.

[KrisZ]

Boxers get paid well better than UFC fighters that's a fact. Boxing is far from dead it just doesn't have the top heavyweight draws right now.

[Sean Liska]

I saw these figures elsewhere and I may be wrong, but, how can boxing be dead when their top fighters still command several million dollars a fight? UFC's top fighters don't even touch the mid-six figures.

I thought UFC headliners can do seven figures per fight once bonuses are figured in.