Dave Meltzer stuff

[Matt D]

So it's probably apparently I've been looking at some WONs from the 90s lately. It's amazing how OLD Dave feels now. The stuff he says about Bryan, like:

 

"Foley on Live Audio Wrestling said Bryan is more over than he ever was. I mean, as far as crowd chants, he’ s as over than anyone ever was, but in reality, he’s not. Part of it was the era, but mainstream, or even among wrestling fans, Foley was far more over, selling tickets, moving ratings, PPVs, any measure you want, than Bryan. Bryan may be closer to the top because there are no Rock’s and Austin’s, but the No. 2 or 3 guy today isn’t close to even the No. 6 or No. 7 guy in 2000."

 

It's probably accurate, but the tone would have been completely different in the mid 90s.

[WingedEagle]

No way to quantify it, but the fact that Bryan's merch is so damn ugly has to impact how it sells. Austin had black & white with a catchphrase in simple font, or a logo that fit in with the Affliction-style stuff that would become popular. Same for Rock. Cena's have a catchy wink-nod fun style to them, like the Nintendo themed shirt. A hideous goatface plastered on blood red? Comic Sans YES/NO loud and out of control splashed across blood red? I'd feel like a turd wearing that around the house.

[Death From Above]

Austin had a goddamn skull for a logo and Brian has shitty beard hats. I really don't even know what WWE is thinking sometimes.

[Jimmy Redman]

 

Dave converts to Henryism:

 

"Henry may be the most underutilized guy on the roster, since the only time he was pushed, a PPV main event coming off his great retirement interview segment, he did what only Punk, Lesnar and Ryback have been able to do in recent years, which is genuinely pop a “B” show number."

 

I'm a Mark Henry guy but I'll disagree that he moved the needle with the Money in the Bank show. Similar to the Rumble, people buy in for the gimmick match(es) here - two ladder matches and potential surprise cash-ins. It was a GREAT angle but I don't think we see a bounce if this was before, say, the Payback show.

 

Which Ryback match is he referring to - the Hell in a Cell from 2012 or one of his matches with Cena from 2013?

 

 

HIAC 2012.

 

And I disagree that Henry couldn't have moved numbers on MITB, because if it is purely the gimmick that sells, you wouldn't be able to have an increase of like 40% domestic buys or whatever it was. The ladders don't change year-by-year, certainly not to that degree.

 

The Rumble sells itself, but that doesn't mean Jeff Hardy didn't draw that big number for his 2008 match.

[Ricky Jackson]

When Renesto retired (the rumor Hamilton ate him is of course false)

 

 

I prefer to remember classic young, snarky and mulleted Dave.

[jdw]

I'd actually argue in favor of Evers and maybe Tinker for the Hall, but that's way off topic.

 

When Bill James expanded his Win Shares to be Win & Loss Shares, he had them:

 

Frank Chance (218-46, .825) Win Share Value of 303

Johnny Evers (261-133, .662) Win Shares Value of 325

Joe Tinker (271-146, .649) Win Share Value of 333

 

"Johnny Evers, in my view, is a fully qualified and well qualified Hall of Famer."

 

"But it is my opinion that Joe Tinker was very possibly the greatest defensive shortstop in the history of baseball, and that he is a well-deserving Hall of Famer."

 

Those were from articles he wrote on his website (behind the pay wall) in 2010 and 2011. His arguments/analysis/walk throughs on Tinker are rather compelling. In fact, one wishes he put together a larger piece on those Cubs teams.

 

John

[Sean Liska]

 

When Renesto retired (the rumor Hamilton ate him is of course false)

 

 

I prefer to remember classic young, snarky and mulleted Dave.

 

This version of Dave has been re-emerging on Twitter. It's been fun to see.

 

Recent Dave quotes on Twitter -

 

"Wait a minute when you follow a match like that, aren't you supposed to not be able to get the crowd into it.Or is that only for HHH bouts."

"If Jessica Eye is Hogan, that makes Ariel Helwani Arsenio, and that means a drunk girl is about to walk in and smash a banana in my face." - that one's great for the Eyada listeners

"Oh my god, white belt Nagata almost submitted a Gracie with the rolling your eyeballs into your skull armlock."

About HHH - "He's absolutely great at knowing when to do what. Except if he's facing Bill Goldberg."

[shakla]

No way to quantify it, but the fact that Bryan's merch is so damn ugly has to impact how it sells. Austin had black & white with a catchphrase in simple font, or a logo that fit in with the Affliction-style stuff that would become popular. Same for Rock. Cena's have a catchy wink-nod fun style to them, like the Nintendo themed shirt. A hideous goatface plastered on blood red? Comic Sans YES/NO loud and out of control splashed across blood red? I'd feel like a turd wearing that around the house.

 

I think about all his shirts have either been that dark red shade or gray. I know you have to differentiate colors between wrestlers, but hardly anyone looks good in those shades. Not to mention the motifs with a beard and/or a goat. At least his new shirt is black, but still with a dreadful "goat beard" drawing.

[topropepodcast]

The weird thing with Bryan is the amateur types haven't really gotten it right, either.

 

Look at the results on redbubble.

 

Unlike some of the other characters, there's not really anything great for Bryan.

 

I don't know if he's the easiest wrestler to design for.

[Grimmas]

His love of Tanahashi is getting to be too much. On that Observer Sin show he went on and on about how Tanahashi is the best in the world and so on.

 

There was a poll of the best wrestlers from 1980 till today and Tanahashi was included, but not Lawler or Funk. It's too much already.

[Grimmas]

About the Bryan merch, why not a plan black t-shirt that says "Yes! Yes! Yes!" on the front and that is all?

[Loss]

Yeah, I was thinking a Daniel Bryan silhouette filled in with the word Yes in different fonts and sizes would also work. (I realize that could be hideous or look sorta cool, depending on which way they go.)

[rzombie1988]

I think most WWE merch is ugly and I wouldn't be caught dead wearing it. Any wrestling stuff I wear is usually ROH stuff, I guess because no one knows what it is and there's rarely big half naked dudes on it.

 

DB does have awful merch. Would love to support him but I'm not wearing a maroon shirt with a goat on it. Even Vince wouldn't wear that and he had loud tastes. Then again Gabe is the only promotional head that I can see wearing a wrestling shirt.

[WingedEagle]

About the Bryan merch, why not a plan black t-shirt that says "Yes! Yes! Yes!" on the front and that is all?

 

Because it might sell better than something ugly?

[Jmare007]

I don't know. I would make a very simple t-shirt with a little logo of D-Bry doing the "Yes pose" - kinda like a wink to the Air Jordan logo - in the front and then a "YES" on the back. That's it.

[goodhelmet]

I really liked his Dead Kennedys logo. If he had that logo in red on a black or white shirt, I could see tons of people wearing it.

[W2BTD]

His love of Tanahashi is getting to be too much. On that Observer Sin show he went on and on about how Tanahashi is the best in the world and so on.

 

There was a poll of the best wrestlers from 1980 till today and Tanahashi was included, but not Lawler or Funk. It's too much already.

 

To be fair, this is one of the only corners of the universe where Lawler is regarded as some great in ring performer.

 

The general consensus on Lawler is that he was an enormous star with tons of charisma, and good worker for his style at his peak. Most don't think of Lawler as an all time great bell to bell.

 

I can think of 100 guys off the top of my head who were bigger snubs than Lawler in that poll. Funk easily being one of them.

[Death From Above]

WWE did an absolutely terrible job of portraying Lawler to the non-Memphis masses when they brought him in which has killed him so such a massive chunk of the wrestling audience. It was literally about a decade after he arrived in the WWF that I discovered he wasn't essentially a glorified comedy wrestler who became a commentator. And if it wasn't for real hardcore wrestilng hot zones like this that never would have even been possible.

[goodhelmet]

Also, people who actually experienced Memphis wrestling like Cornette, Punk, Raven and Steve Austin list Lawler as one of their favorites and/or wrestling genius. This isn't some niche fetishism.

[Death From Above]

To 95% of the current audience out there it is.

 

Not saying I agree with it (I don't), merely that I haven't lost perspective that this exists.

 

That doesn't in any way mean guys like Kris or Phil or yourself who go to bat for Lawler are wrong, or wasting time doing so. Merely that I don't think the broad perception will ever change. That's too bad really. We live in an age when almost any wrestling you care to name is accessible in some way.

[KrisZ]

Of course Lawler isn't going to get as much love from Meltz as we give him because Meltz never gave Memphis the credit it deserved back in the 80's and still today.

 

It is what it is.

 

I suggest every wrestling fan watch a true sample size of Memphis and Lawler against various opponents from various eras and if you still don't think Lawler is one of the all-time greats then that's fine it's your opinion.

 

A lot of greats in the business though will tell you that Lawler is one of the best opponents they ever worked and that is the ultimate in respect.

[W2BTD]

Of course Lawler isn't going to get as much love from Meltz as we give him because Meltz never gave Memphis the credit it deserved back in the 80's and still today.

 

It is what it is.

 

I suggest every wrestling fan watch a true sample size of Memphis and Lawler against various opponents from various eras and if you still don't think Lawler is one of the all-time greats then that's fine it's your opinion.

 

A lot of greats in the business though will tell you that Lawler is one of the best opponents they ever worked and that is the ultimate in respect.

 

A lot of great wrestlers will tell you Kane is one of the best opponents they ever worked, too. I mean, that's nice and all, but it doesn't move me. Wrestlers judge each other differently than we do.

 

If Memphis wrestling is your thing, cool. Everybody likes what they like. But Memphis was never known as a workrate territory. Lawler was never known as a top level worker. He excelled at brawls and little else. Won't argue the wrestling genius thing, but that doesn't necessarily make someone a great worker. Jake Roberts, for example. I'd call him a wrestling genius, but i'd hardly call him a great in ring worker.

 

Lawler wasn't a great athlete (not even a good one), wasn't an innovator, and largely stayed in his wheelhouse and stuck to the formula. I watch the hyped Lawler stuff and it never, ever impresses me. Admittedly, I don't like the style, so there is style bias at play. Even so, I can't put him in the same stratosphere as the guys Meltzer had in the poll. I think Jumbo Tsuruta is possibly the most overrated pro wrestler ever. But I understand why he was in the poll and have no issue with it. Lawler belongs no where near a poll like that. It's just not what he was.

[Matt D]

 

I suggest every wrestling fan watch a true sample size of Memphis and Lawler against various opponents from various eras and if you still don't think Lawler is one of the all-time greats then that's fine it's your opinion.

 

 

Alternatively...

 

... man, why was the only "Wrestling" "pitchfork" image I could find Eric Young with a goalie mask on?

 

 

In all seriousness, you can like whatever you want here and we'll be civil to you so long as you're civil to us, I do wonder sometimes why this guy posts here since all he seems to want to do is show his dislike of a lot of the stuff we dig and explain how niche and weird we all are. You'd think it'd get frustrating over time.

[W2BTD]

 

 

I suggest every wrestling fan watch a true sample size of Memphis and Lawler against various opponents from various eras and if you still don't think Lawler is one of the all-time greats then that's fine it's your opinion.

 

 

Alternatively...

 

... man, why was the only "Wrestling" "pitchfork" image I could find Eric Young with a goalie mask on?

 

 

In all seriousness, you can like whatever you want here and we'll be civil to you so long as you're civil to us, I do wonder sometimes why this guy posts here since all he seems to want to do is show his dislike of a lot of the stuff we dig and explain how niche and weird we all are. You'd think it'd get frustrating over time.

 

 

When have I not been civil? Disagreeing is not being civil?

 

Clearly i'm the guy on the wrong side of the tracks taste wise, but i've always taken it in stride and conducted myself in a civil manner despite being in more than one 100 vs 1 debates. Be fair.

 

I responded to a post saying Tanahashi isn't worthy of being in what was obviously a workrate poll, yet Lawler is. I'd like to see the evidence that the consensus on Lawler is that he's a great in ring worker. Tanahashi is a three time Wreslter of the Year, two time Most Outstanding, and has two Matches of the Year under his belt. He's placed high in all of those categories multiple times as well. Lawler not only has no wins, but to my knowledge had never placed in any of those largely workrate based categories. And the poll in question was on the Observer website, so Observer Awards would be pretty relevant.

 

Lawler has won Feud of the Year multiple times, and I believe he's placed in the promo category a few times. He's a legend and all time great overall performer. But that wasn't the poll. He was a square peg for that type of poll.

[goodhelmet]

I didn't list those names to imply we should have to respect wrestler's opinions. In fact, I am usually in the "Take what wrestlers say with a grain of salt" camp. I listed them as people OUTSIDE this little community of ours. To add another group... in the 80s, Philly fans would take trips to Memphis because they loved the territory so much. Blue Meanie and Johnny Sorrow could give you the details to who was running those little trips but it was some guy who had a radio wrestling show back then.

 

Loving Memphis wrestling isn't something exclusive to this community. I don't know how old W2BTD is or where he grew up with but age and region will affect your perception of what great wrestling is.