pol Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Is it possible that they blame the underwhelming initial Network numbers in part on building Mania around Bryan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FedEx227 Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I don't think dave is necessarily saying Bryan isn't over, he's playing devil's advocate and saying that's probably what Vince is thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Is it possible that they blame the underwhelming initial Network numbers in part on building Mania around Bryan? They knew the Network numbers right when Mania was over, and the plan was for him to beat Kane at Extreme Rules and then beat Batista the next month at Payback before headlining a very important SummerSlam against Lesnar. So they weren't *that* angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I don't think dave is necessarily saying Bryan isn't over, he's playing devil's advocate and saying that's probably what Vince is thinking. I feel like Dave's always trying to get us worked up about their views on Bryan. Like when HBK told a story about Vince telling him that he just didn't see anything in a member of the roster, and Dave told us this was almost assuredly a reference to Bryan, even though that didn't match what was happening on TV at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMJ Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 IIRC, they kinda tried to put the Yes chant someone else (Big Show) in the build to Survivor Series 2013, but it didn't work at all and Bryan just got hotter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Â Harris Boys or Scorpio is my guess, although the Harris boys backed up Shawn as Montreal was happening. Â I can buy Scorpio being pissed off with Shawn, especially after how he treated Vader (who broke Scorpio in the business). Â LOL at wrestlers calling Dave Meltzer asking him if they should fight Shawn Michaels. If you're calling the dirtsheets to discuss your feelings, you aren't fighting anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I don't think he means real as in a shoot, but real as in suspension of disbelief. It's easier to get lost in the moment when you can't predict exactly how a match is going to go. You don't know what's going to happen next. People generally pop for finisher kickouts because they expected the match to end with the finisher and all of a sudden it didn't, which is exciting. Â Of course, the argument doesn't hold much water when he's talking about New Japan and the finishers that get kicked out of every match. Kicking no longer feels unexpected in that way. This idea that New Japan features constant finisher kick outs is misguided, I think. Â The Rainmaker has never been kicked out of, neither has the Gotch Piledriver, and I can't remember the last High Fly Flow or Stardust Press or King Kong Knee Drop or Phoenix Splash that has been kicked out of. Â Variations of the HFF (standing, to the back, etc) get kicked out of, the Boma Ye's from odd angles get kicked out of, big bombs get kicked out of, but in terms of protecting finishers, I would argue NJPW does a MUCH better job than WWE, TNA, Dragon Gate, ROH, and everyplace else I watch regularly (can't speak for lucha). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 The Boma Ye has to be one of the least protected finishers this side of the figure four. A single one never finishes a match these days. Agreed on most of the others though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwebb Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Okay I am really confused by meltzer on the RAW report last night. It sounded like he said that the crowd chanting 'YES' after the Brie Bella match is bad for Daniel Bryan because it shows that he isn't over but the chant is over and he could be replaced with anyone. Never mind the fact that Brie and Daniel are married (legit married not a work) Â I know that Dave has always pushed the "Daniel Bryan isn't a draw" theory for a good year but this logic makes no sense. Well Big Show did manage to steal the chant for a moment as well. Just that wasn't really significant either. That was all really strange that momentary Big Show super push which basically ended with him dancing in a diaper on RAW advertising New Years. I really don't see how them all screaming yes is all that different from fans saying "what" in promos that didn't include Austin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FedEx227 Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 The Boma Ye has to be one of the least protected finishers this side of the figure four. A single one never finishes a match these days. Agreed on most of the others though. Â Right, Boma Ye is not protected. Pretty much without fail, every single other one is teflon. The Rainmaker hasn't even had a kickoff hinted, it's instant death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 They built an extremely important Mania completely around him and it did pretty well all things considered. Why are wondering if they think he's over? Â The people who don't want Bryan as a top guy seem to be desperately trying to convince people that the Yes chant is what's popular rather than Bryan himself. They also want to point to Bryan not being a big of a draw because the B shows he headlined in East Bumfuck were less than the A shows Cena headlined in MSG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Okay I am really confused by meltzer on the RAW report last night. It sounded like he said that the crowd chanting 'YES' after the Brie Bella match is bad for Daniel Bryan because it shows that he isn't over but the chant is over and he could be replaced with anyone. Never mind the fact that Brie and Daniel are married (legit married not a work) Â I know that Dave has always pushed the "Daniel Bryan isn't a draw" theory for a good year but this logic makes no sense. Â Even screwier was when Alvarez asked: "wouldn't it be worse for Bryan if the fans DIDN'T get into the chant?" and Meltzer was like: "NO it would be better!" Â Alvarez wisely chose not to argue and just moved on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I just don't see why we're wondering whether they think he's over. He's not a midcard guy trying to break through anymore. He headlined a Mania that was built around him wrestling in two main events. He was supposed to headline SummerSlam. They think he's over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I've read Dave Meltzer claim a few times how people he's talked to have told him that El Hijo Del Santo was a far, far better worker than his father. Maybe Jose, OJ, or Kris can answer, is this something that's actually said by workers and insiders in Mexico? Or this talking point non-existent, or just bullshit? Or maybe Meltzer talked to some modern guy who said something like this and now he just casually throws it out without much thought? I just thought it was an unusual claim since I seriously doubt Dave talks to workers and insiders who would have seen El Santo work complete matches during the 1950's, 1960's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Considering guys like Blue Demon, Mil Mascaras, El Canek, Perro Aguayo wrestled forever, it's not inconceivable that many wrestlers in Mexico worked with/against both. But that bleeds into a problem where most probably saw/worked with Santo post prime and not during the 1940s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 It's not quite the same, but I recall Mike Tenay on commentary in WCW talking about how even though Santo was the bigger star in La Pareja Atomica, Gory Guerrero was considered the better wrestler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Just in case someone asks for a specific quote, when I first started subscribing to the newsletter in 2004, I remember him mentioning it a few times in the mid-2000's. I don't have those print issues anymore, but he mentions this claim again in a March 3, 2014 issue: "Guzman, 50, the son of Mexico’s all-time most famous wrestler, movie star and sports hero, Rodolfo Guzman Huerta, the original El Santo, was Mexico’s biggest drawing card as well as a huge Hispanic draw in a number of U.S. markets during the 80s and 90s. While not having the charisma of his father, we was a far better wrestler." Obviously that "we" was supposed to be a "he". The reason I bring this up isn't even about who was better, as obviously we'll never know, but more so if this is actually something that's said, thought or claimed in Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Santo the son was way more flashier than Santo the father plus it comes down to new vs. old in a lot of ways. Old lucha from the 50's was way different than lucha in 90's. We don't have a good enough sample size of Santo the father to compare in my mind but the opinion of Santo the son being better in the ring than Santo the father isn't just his as I've seen other historians say the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Cool, thanks for the reply Kris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Jose told me about this once, but I can't remember the details. Either people thought Blue Demon was the better worker or Demon used to say so himself. Santo looks good in the films, but they're only films. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Santo Sr., believe it or not, had the reputation among some of his peers and magazine writers of the time as being an average worker. Blue Demon and Black Shadow would publically and privately tell people that Santo was terrible. Other people would claim that Santo was very good. Many of the negative comments seem to be at least partly fueled by jealousy. Â Based on the available footage, which is mostly movie matches, Santo seems to be a very competent worker. Based on some people's comments you'd think he wrestled like Tinieblas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Jose told me about this once, but I can't remember the details. Either people thought Blue Demon was the better worker or Demon used to say so himself. Santo looks good in the films, but they're only films. Â Demon was almost universally considered to be the better worker. Demon was happy to remind you every time that he had a chance to do so, even a decade after Santo's death. Â For a 300 year old man Demon Sr. looked pretty good in his Arena Mexico retirement match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 I don't think dave is necessarily saying Bryan isn't over, he's playing devil's advocate and saying that's probably what Vince is thinking.  There's no reason to play devil's advocate though. It's like he's already is preparing for a "he's not seen as the top guy" rant when he comes backs, is the most over guy on the roster and starts headlining house shows    I feel like Dave's always trying to get us worked up about their views on Bryan. This I completely agree. There's something about Bryan that makes him go "don't get too exited" every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Great information, thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 When doing the Lucha section we saw old ass Blue Demon work and he was pretty damn good then so yeah I can imagine how great he must've been 20 years earlier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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