Dave Meltzer stuff

[sek69]

I think people in the business probably care in the sense of realizing it's recognition from someone who's been covering pro wrestling for 30+ years but I doubt anyone loses sleep over falling off the ballot.

 

Also all this discussion has made me kind of wonder what at PWO Hall of Fame would look like.

[Loss]

I keep seeing this idea in the thread that Dave is the guy who picks who is in the HOF.

[hammerva]

I think people in the business probably care in the sense of realizing it's recognition from someone who's been covering pro wrestling for 30+ years but I doubt anyone loses sleep over falling off the ballot.

 

Also all this discussion has made me kind of wonder what at PWO Hall of Fame would look like.

 

I have a feeling that a PWO Hall of Fame would have a list of people who would NOT allowed to be elected

[Matt D]

I keep seeing this idea in the thread that Dave is the guy who picks who is in the HOF.

 

It's a system that feeds into itself, certainly, but if Dave really doesn't want someone in, they're probably not getting in. If Dave really wants someone to get in, I imagine they get in eventually. Tanahashi is a pretty good example if you want to break this down.

 

Is there someone that Dave obviously wanted to get in that didn't get in? Or vice versa?

[sek69]

I keep seeing this idea in the thread that Dave is the guy who picks who is in the HOF.

 

 

It comes across to me that he definitely makes harder cases for/against certain folks and that it has a tendency to sway the results. He'd never come out and say "this guy better get voted in" but it's not usually hard to guess who he's rooting for either. I get he probably just wants everyone to have as much info as possible on all the candidates but it puts him in an awkward spot of basically having to advocate for guys who may not be as well known while being the one who keeps the castle so to speak.

[fxnj]

 

 

I feel like drawing money is even subjective in some ways, but maybe this isn't the right topic for that debate. I don't know.

It absolutely is subjective in many different ways. But it is also the only category of the three that is at least rooted in some semblance of fact. A million dollar gate is a million dollar gate. 12,000 fans is 12,000 fans. Not all 12,000 fan houses are created equally, but there is at least a starting point before we start arguing about it, where as working ability & influence are essentially 100% subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

I don't really understand your reasoning. I mean, yeah, no one is going to deny that a million dollar gate is a million dollar gate, but neither would anyone deny a 450 splash is a 450 splash. Using that metric I don't see much of a different in the subjectivity inherent to judging workers compared to judging draws since both things are heavily dependent on how the voter decides to interpret the data in front of them with the individual moves/numbers

[W2BTD]

 

I keep seeing this idea in the thread that Dave is the guy who picks who is in the HOF.

 

It's a system that feeds into itself, certainly, but if Dave really doesn't want someone in, they're probably not getting in. If Dave really wants someone to get in, I imagine they get in eventually. Tanahashi is a pretty good example if you want to break this down.

 

Is there someone that Dave obviously wanted to get in that didn't get in? Or vice versa?

 

 

I always just shake my head & laugh at this narrative that Tanahashi wasn't a really strong candidate, and how he wouldn't have made it unless dave worked his devil magic with people to get him elected.

 

To me, and to many, many others, Tanahashi was a stone cold lock no brainer. At minimum he was a strong candidate.

 

As a performer, we're talking about a three time Wrestler of the Year, two time Most Outstanding Wrestler, two time Match of the Year, two time Feud of the Year, two five star matches (two more since being elected), one Most Charasmatic. And it's not just Observer Awards. How about the Tokyo Sports Awards? Two time MVP, two time FIghting Spirit, one time Performance Award, one time Best Bout. Regardless of what most of this particular site thinks about him, he was generally regarded as the best wrestler on the planet for about three years, and not accepting that while championing niche dudes like Sami Callihan who never worked big match in their lives or had the pressure of performing in a big match setting while carrying a promotion, is just being silly. And he was very, very good for many years before that. He's a HOF level worker without any question. None.

 

As a draw, there is no question he was the lead dog in the New Japan resurgence, which is very real and very significant no matter how much cold water people try to throw on it. Probably not a HOF level draw, but very close. Tanahashi is still the go to guy when New Japan needs him to be (see: Tokyo Dome this year when Naito flopped, and the show coming up this Sunday, where they are putting Tanahashi in the match vs Styles at Sumo, a guy they clearly do not trust to draw after not drawing in Yokohama. That is no accident.) And he put over Okada multiple times on the losing end of a long feud, establishing Okada as a much needed new drawing star. Nobody else on the roster could have had that type of influence to get over a new star.

 

dave has also mentioned that Tanahashi did very well among Japanese voters. As in, actual people from Japan, not these supposed droves of American voters who dave managed to brainwash.

 

Tanahashi is in the HOF because he's a transcendent generational talent & one of the best workers to come around in decades. Not because of dave witchcraft.

[W2BTD]

 

 

I feel like drawing money is even subjective in some ways, but maybe this isn't the right topic for that debate. I don't know.

It absolutely is subjective in many different ways. But it is also the only category of the three that is at least rooted in some semblance of fact. A million dollar gate is a million dollar gate. 12,000 fans is 12,000 fans. Not all 12,000 fan houses are created equally, but there is at least a starting point before we start arguing about it, where as working ability & influence are essentially 100% subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

I don't really understand your reasoning. I mean, yeah, no one is going to deny that a million dollar gate is a million dollar gate, but neither would anyone deny a 450 splash is a 450 splash. Using that metric I don't see much of a different in the subjectivity inherent to judging workers compared to judging draws since both things are heavily dependent on how the voter decides to interpret the data in front of them with the individual moves/numbers

 

 

You really don't understand how hard data is less subjective than something like ring work which is 100% subjective?

 

Let's use an extreme example.

 

If Wrestler A drew 40 sellouts in Random City USA, and Wrestler B drew 3 sellouts in the same city during the same time frame, I think we could reasonably conclude pretty easily that Wrestler A was the better draw.

 

Wrestler A being a better worker than Wrestler B is completely & totally subjective.

[Loss]

I think we could make that conclusion, but I'm not sure we should without also looking at the undercard support, finishes of previous shows in the same market, competing pop culture events happening the same night, weather and so on. I realize we aren't privy to a lot of that information, which is why most of the drawing arguments start from a flawed place in my opinion. Still, that aside, we wouldn't say that Ricky Steamboat was automatically a better worker than Terry Funk in 1989 because he had more five-star matches. We may come to that conclusion after discussing it further, but it wouldn't be simple math. I realize that's not what you're arguing - what you're arguing is more that the gates provide a factual starting point, which is true. I still don't think we have enough context to argue these things properly in many cases, though.

 

We do in some cases. Clash III drew a lower rating than Clash I. But Clash III was also head-to-head with the MTV VMAs. Wrestlemania XIX drew a low number. We were entering the Iraq War at the time and people didn't have wrestling on the brain. Mid South Coliseum attendance nosedived when parking lots were unlit, security was crap and they had no air conditioner in the building. I wish those types of extraneous factors were discussed more, at least when we have the information.

[ohtani's jacket]

If there's to be a HOF going forward that inducts new modern candidates and not just historical ones then Tanahashi unequivocally belongs in the hall. He didn't have to go in so soon, but he belongs there for certain.

[Matt D]

I'm not against Tanahashi being in on principle or anything, but I don't think it should have necessarily been so soon and I think Dave thought it was a matter-of-fact and presented it that way from the first second he could.

 

How many of the voters are from Japan? Do we have any sense of that?

[Loss]

Sorry, just one more point: Even in the case of PPV buys, I feel like low numbers during carrier disputes should have an asterisk. I think of the WWF having a dispute with DirecTV at the end of 2001, which just so happened to coincide with the push of Chris Jericho. Maybe Jericho wasn't a PPV draw in his first main event push at that level, but someone looking back on those numbers without that knowledge might be harsher on him than he deserves.

[fxnj]

You really don't understand how hard data is less subjective than something like ring work which is 100% subjective?

 

Let's use an extreme example.

 

If Wrestler A drew 40 sellouts in Random City USA, and Wrestler B drew 3 sellouts in the same city during the same time frame, I think we could reasonably conclude pretty easily that Wrestler A was the better draw.

 

Wrestler A being a better worker than Wrestler B is completely & totally subjective.

Firstly I don't see what drawing something derived from "hard data" more so than working ability. If anything, drawing is even more since you have promotions fudging numbers and it being a mystery which is right (how much did Wrestlemania 3 really draw?) while if you're judging video there's not going to be much argument that what you're watching is an accurate representation of the match.

 

To respond to your example, Mookieghana has a list on his website of the guys who've been on the most AJPW cards that drew 5k crowds and the guy to come out on top is Fuchi with almost as many 5k+ cards to his name as Jumbo and Tenryu combined. If drawing is a metric rooted in "hard data" just because you can list off random I don't see why judging workers wouldn't be when you can list off play by play. As Loss pointed out, there absolutely is a ton of subjecivity in looking at the context and coming up with your own interpretation of the otherwise meaningless data.

[Dylan Waco]

Only a delusional psychotic would claim Dave's coverage of Tanshashi wasn't a huge facet in him getting in when he did. You can debate the merits of his candidacy, and even believe he belongs in, and still conclude that Dave strongly influenced the voting pool on Tanahashi.

[shoe]

The only HoF that all the wrestlers REALLY care about is the WWE Hall of Fame, because it's almost like winning a super bowl ring and means they can command bigger paydays and get instant respect from kids and stuff who might not remember them but go to local indy shows.

 

After that I think they care about Cauliflower Alley -- because that has legit respect within the business and several of the old guard still attached to it. And after that, probably the Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum in New York.

 

If Dave tried to put on a black tie event and attached a dinner with speakers and so on to it, the old wrestlers might give more of a shit, but as it is, I don't think "the business" cares that much about who is in or isn't it.

We talked about this a little the other day. I was at an autograph signing. Tito Santana signed his autograph with the year he went in the WWE HOF.

[goodhelmet]

Recently on his podcast, Chris Jericho gave props to Meltzer ' s Hall of Fame. Like everything, it depends on the wrestler and the age of said wrestler. I know Foley has also been on record acknowledging his status in the WON Hall of Fame.

[Bix]

For better or for worse it does also have more wrestlers/people in the business voting than any other HOF.

[Johnny Sorrow]

For better or for worse it does also have more wrestlers/people in the business voting than any other HOF.

I'm imagining the deluge of wacky self promoting and advertising wrestlers would try if they could vote for who's in the WWE HOF.

Print ads in the Observer with "For Your Consideration , "Pretty Boy" Larry Sharpe"

[shakla]

Anyone remember the trailer for the Abdullah Wrestling Observer Shoot DVD where he apparently didn't know he was in the WON HoF?

 

Speaking of which, I wonder why that DVD series never took off. Seem to remember they announced one with Bas Rutten a few years ago, must have never got past the planning stages.

[Eduardo]

Re: HOF.

 

Not that it counts for anything, but Pro Wrestling Illustrated started promoting the WON HOF as the main professional wrestling hall of fame a few years ago. I remember being surprised when a friend of mine, who has never subbed to Meltzer's newsletter brought this up to me. He even showed me his issue of PWI since I probably looked surprised, since I haven't read those magazines in ages. Don't know for how long, but they would have wrestler profiles on workers who had been inducted into the WON HOF.

[W2BTD]

 

You really don't understand how hard data is less subjective than something like ring work which is 100% subjective?

 

Let's use an extreme example.

 

If Wrestler A drew 40 sellouts in Random City USA, and Wrestler B drew 3 sellouts in the same city during the same time frame, I think we could reasonably conclude pretty easily that Wrestler A was the better draw.

 

Wrestler A being a better worker than Wrestler B is completely & totally subjective.

Firstly I don't see what drawing something derived from "hard data" more so than working ability. If anything, drawing is even more since you have promotions fudging numbers and it being a mystery which is right (how much did Wrestlemania 3 really draw?) while if you're judging video there's not going to be much argument that what you're watching is an accurate representation of the match.

 

To respond to your example, Mookieghana has a list on his website of the guys who've been on the most AJPW cards that drew 5k crowds and the guy to come out on top is Fuchi with almost as many 5k+ cards to his name as Jumbo and Tenryu combined. If drawing is a metric rooted in "hard data" just because you can list off random I don't see why judging workers wouldn't be when you can list off play by play. As Loss pointed out, there absolutely is a ton of subjecivity in looking at the context and coming up with your own interpretation of the otherwise meaningless data.

 

 

I never said there wasn't a subjective element to breaking down drawing power. Of course there is. What I said, was that it's the only HOF criteria of the three that isn't completely subjective.

 

Your comparison of play by play of matches being the hard data equivalent of gates or attendance figures is completely wonky to the point it nearly loses me, but I guess i'll bite. What does running off a list of moves have to do with whether somebody is a good worker? The answer is nothing, zero. However, if I told you Wrestler X drew, say, a hundred 20,000+ houses, you at least have a base of FACT to draw somewhat subjective conclusions about Wrestler X's drawing power. Wrestler X's working ability is 100%, unquestionably, without zero doubt, completely subjective and based on zero fact.

[W2BTD]

I can prove Hulk Hogan is a better draw than Abyss.

 

Nobody can prove either is a better worker.

[KrisZ]

Ole Anderson had the best reaction to not being in there

[Grimmas]

Only a delusional psychotic would claim Dave's coverage of Tanshashi wasn't a huge facet in him getting in when he did. You can debate the merits of his candidacy, and even believe he belongs in, and still conclude that Dave strongly influenced the voting pool on Tanahashi.

I'm still waiting for the Joe Lanza vs Dylan Hales Tanahashi debate.

[W2BTD]

 

Only a delusional psychotic would claim Dave's coverage of Tanshashi wasn't a huge facet in him getting in when he did. You can debate the merits of his candidacy, and even believe he belongs in, and still conclude that Dave strongly influenced the voting pool on Tanahashi.

I'm still waiting for the Joe Lanza vs Dylan Hales Tanahashi debate.

 

 

So much of it is being divisive on the work, so it'd be boring. It would be like debating Lawler with Will.

 

"I don't like his matches."

 

"I do!"

 

"..."

 

I mean, where do you do from there?

 

I think we're on the same page with the rest. Not a hall of fame level draw, but enough of one for that facet to be a complimentary piece. Same for influence, although I think that part of it might be stronger than some think in terms of his style permeating the rest of the company in terms of how big matches are worked, being the top star of his era in his country, and as mentioned previously, being so integral in getting Okada over which is something that probably doesn't look as important now as it will a decade from now assuming Okada stays on his current path.

 

Think about that whole deal. He loses his title to a complete non entity who got booed out of the Tokyo Dome less that a month earlier. The mach is great, and the other guy had the worst match on the show the month before. He then engages in a long feud with the dude, and loses decisively in the end. He then agrees to work tag matches & underneath for a year or whatever it was in order to allow the new guy's runa chance to breath. All the while, he still manages to keep himself over to where he's still a top guy himself.

 

I'm not trying to paint Tanahshi as a hero for putting somebody over, but there are plenty of huge stars over the years who would have told the booker to piss off at such a scenario, or went through with a half assed version of it. There was a ton of risk involved there for not only Gedo & Jado (more so Gedo, since the Okada thing seems to be his baby), but for Tanahashi as well. If that New Beginning match flops, Tanahashi, New Japan, & the booking team are in deep shit. Obviously credit goes to Okada as well, but the risk and the pressure was on Tanahashi.