Dave Meltzer stuff

[Log]

Contrast that with RF - there was an interview he did, I forget with who - who said something happened with him on the day JFK was killed. Neither RF, Gentry or the wrestler could come up with the date.

I remember that came up in the RF Bill Watts shoot although that might be a different one. They asked him something or other and then when did that happen, and Watts said "whatever year Kennedy was killed", and none of them really seemed to know when exactly that was.

 

Bottom line is don't get your history lessons from wrestlers.

 

Wasn't Kennedy killed the year that the Undertaker broke Hogan's neck? Like, 1974?

 

No, wait. Kennedy died the same day as Andre. Remember, the day before Hogan had just slammed him and torn all of his back muscles. Andre died that next day after Wrestlemania III.

[BruiserBrody]

How did you start in wrestling? What are your memories of ...? What were your first impressions of ...?

RF's one was like:

 

RF "How did you start in wrestling?"

Abby or his Manager "We never agreed to this give us another $500"

Cue off camera arguing and Feinstein being scared shitless that of course was never edited out.

Rinse, repeat for 45 minutes.

 

If that is true I want it NOW

[Dan]

Torch Talks read more like conversations with Wade directing than a series of questions, which is what makes them good.

Yeah, his idiosyncrasies aside, he's defiantly good at interviews. The 50,000 word Nash interview from 2005 was epic.

[jdw]

Torch Talks read more like conversations with Wade directing than a series of questions, which is what makes them good.

Yeah... I don't see why it would be a problem with Wade being Wade if they're good.

 

It's a bit like Dave's writing shortcomings. If Dave is bringing his A-Game on a topic, we've learned to put up with the occassional paragraph long sentences in the piece that you have to read four times to figure out what he's saying.

 

Wade doing an interview isn't remotely close to that Actors Studio guy where even with a good subject rarely interviewed at length, you want to just bang your head against the wall. Wade's solid and good.

 

John

[Strummer]

not Dave specifically but John Pollock goes on a rant about Dave's number one talking point:

 

**Eric Bischoff appeared on the ‘Monday Night Mayhem' radio program this past Monday and when discussing Paul Heyman's post UFC 116 comments regarding professional wrestling getting it's house in order Bischoff stated:

 

As far as his comment goes, I don't have a clue of what context the comment was made in. People have a tendency to wanna compare MMA to professional wrestling, and for the life of me, I just can't figure out why. It's not even apples & oranges as I've said before, it's apples & bricks. One is a real sport & the other is scripted entertainment, and beyond that, if anyone can point out any similarities between the two and why wrestling should modify its business model based on what's happening in MMA, I would be very interested in hearing it, because last time I checked, they are two entirely different products.

 

I typically take Bischoff's comments in public with a grain of salt as someone that loves to throws jabs at the internet audience and play his heel persona online for his own enjoyment and if that's the case with the above statement than fine however if the above is his legitimate belief than the industry has not only passed this man by but is ions away from his comprehension of what sells and works in 2010. It drives me insane hearing people say ‘one is a sport and one is entertainment' as that is supposed to end the discussion of the parallels between both industries. In the business of selling characters and fights / matches the work and shoot nature is really irrelevant because a good wrestling promotion shouldn't look at their industry having a worked outcome as a handicap but rather a benefit when it comes to controlling how your story is told rather than having to book based on uncontrolled outcomes such as the UFC does.

 

Do you actually believe Joe Silva doesn't sit down and ask himself before putting together a major fight of what kind of drama will be attached to the STORY they will attempt to tell? What is the content of a UFC countdown show? Is it just 60 minutes of fights? No, it is 90% interviews with fighters telling us their story and the UFC attempting to get the viewer emotionally invested in this fighter and by the end of the show putting you in a position where you want to see if this fighter wins or loses.

 

When professional wrestling is at its best its when you have the same dynamic where you have two characters you care about, fighting for something you can sink your teeth into and want to know the outcome. One of, if not the biggest problem in 2010 professional wrestling is that characters have not broken through the ‘wrestling audience' and captured the average person's interest, which is the different between an industry that is hot or cold to the public. Wins and losses have been trivialized to such a degree that a wrestler winning or losing a title doesn't carry the weight it once did. Every single UFC fighter has a basic storyline in place - winning fights will lead to the goal of earning a title shot and that's what everything is working towards.

 

 

In 2005 it was the ‘Ultimate Fighter' reality show that took the UFC to the next level in terms of popularity. In the reality show it was personalities that were being focused on with the fights being the gravy at the end of the show but not the substance of the show. It was an old school professional wrestling presentation of babyfaces (Chris Leben, Forrest Griffin, Stephan Bonnar) and heels (Josh Koscheck, Bobby Southworth) that got people interested in these guys as people first and fighters second. In the WWE and TNA today - we know these people are ‘professional wrestlers' we have no attachment to these people as personalities. Who are these people when they are not wrestling? There is no personality for the rank and file wrestler and even the top guys have a disconnect with the public.

 

The UFC is not a new phenomenon - if it was simply real fights with shoot outcomes that were the basis for this popularity boom than the UFC would have been kicking the WWE's ass on pay per view throughout the 90's but that wasn't the case at all.

 

In 2010, if you're looking at MMA as a foreign entity with no connection to professional wrestling than the game has passed you by and there is nothing TNA is doing right now business wise that suggests they have the answer and with comments like Bischoff's it tells you the creative mindset of the company has not entered the current or past decade but remains in 1997.

[Loss]

There is a difference between saying "Wrestling could learn from the way UFC builds PPVs with video packages and interviews" and "Wrestling should change its in-ring and promo style to mirror MMA". I think sometimes, the first point is being made, but the second one is being interpreted, and sometimes, the second point is being both made an interpreted, but it's not often you see the first point made and interpreted as simply that.

 

Yeah, I'm confused.

[Bix]

Bryan:

If you haven't read the Eric Bischoff interview on the front page yet, it's awesome, especially this line about wrestling and MMA: "If anyone can point out any similarities between the two and why wrestling should modify its business model based on what's happening in MMA, I would be very interested in hearing it, because last time I checked, they are two entirely different products." In 2010.

[Bix]

By the way...

 

With Brock-Rock often getting trotted out as the definitive proof of whatever, why is it that nobody seems to realize that it was not PURE SPORTS BUILD!!!!!!111111111eleventyone, but making the match seem super-important? If you did a sports build in a pure fashion for every WWE PPV, would they do noticeably better? Yes, I know that nowadays Bryan, Dave, et al are pointing to "selling fights" in general, but that's not usually invoked WRT that match.

[Guest Slickster]

There is a difference between saying "Wrestling could learn from the way UFC builds PPVs with video packages and interviews" and "Wrestling should change its in-ring and promo style to mirror MMA". I think sometimes, the first point is being made, but the second one is being interpreted, and sometimes, the second point is being both made an interpreted, but it's not often you see the first point made and interpreted as simply that.

 

Yeah, I'm confused.

I think you hit the nail right on the head.

[sek69]

The point that wrestling by and large has been TERRIBLE at creating compelling characters should be the Lesson Of 2010. Sometimes the WON crew will almost get it by pointing out how even steven booking only makes sure neither guy gets over, but they always stop just short of the bigger point.

 

People on the internet who still are puzzled as to why John Cena's a huge star just need to look at how he's one of the few guys on the roster who has been allowed to show a personality. The fact that most of the Cena haters don't seem to get that underscores just how much the point is lost on people.

[Bob Morris]

Hell, pro wrestling shouldn't be taking hints from MMA, but from the NBA. The whole LeBron James deal was easily the re-invention of the New World Order, with him joining up with Chris Bosh and Dwayne Wade to form the hated heel trio who ends up being surrounded by a bunch of nobodies.

 

"Or something like that." -- jdw

 

[sek69]

That TV special last night needed to have an announcer from Cleveland to say "LeBron James can go straight to hell" before throwing his headset down.

[Dan]

The point that wrestling by and large has been TERRIBLE at creating compelling characters should be the Lesson Of 2010. Sometimes the WON crew will almost get it by pointing out how even steven booking only makes sure neither guy gets over, but they always stop just short of the bigger point.

I thought the lessons of 2010 was Workrate \=/  Buyrate, after seeing the WM number. Have we learned anything from MMA that we didn't know already?

[Bix]

Bryan in Fourth Grade Book Report On The Wrestling Observer Newsletter Weekly:

 

Eric Bischoff on Monday Night Mayhem said, "People have a tendency to want to compare MMA to professional wrestling, and for the life of me, I just can't figure out why. It's not even apples and oranges as I've said before, it's apples and bricks. One is a real sport and the other is scripted entertainment, and beyond that, if anyone can point out any similarities between the two and why wrestling should modify its business model based on what's happening in MMA, I would be very interested in hearing it, because last time I checked, they are two entirely different products." Yeah, except for the fact that aside from the fact that one is real and one is fake, they are exactly the same and the one where you can't control the outcomes is decimating the one where you can. I mean, what a fucking ridiculously stupid thing to say in 2010. Although if you look at TNA since he and Hogan came in, this comment really shouldn't surprise anyone at all.

Take note that he didn't actually explain how "they are exactly the same."

[Dylan Waco]

Well they both involve carbon based life forms occupying space and utilizing oxygen to sustain their existence.

 

So I'd say "exactly the same' is fair.

[Strummer]

Dave and Bryan seem to take it so personally when someone diagrees with their pro wrestling=MMA Theorem

 

I mean they don't like it when people disagree with them on anything but on this particular topic they go straight into attack mode

[Bix]

Perhaps this can be settled by a verbal debate between me and Bryan.

[kjh]

This may help to explain why people keep stubbornly digging a hole for themselves, on both sides of the argument:

 

How facts backfire

[Guest Slickster]

Tommy Dreamer did an interview where he even referenced how the 2005 show was supposed to be the end, but Vince McMahon brought it back and ruined it. He did one of his crying promos asking Dixie Carter to give them one last night, and Carter agreed, saying that the former ECW guys will have full control of the PPV and he promised people would see ECW as it should be and not what Vince McMahon turned it into.

[rovert]

In fairness he did tear his MCL in an angle Monday night.

[sek69]

My only question on the whole MMA=wrestling deal is this: boxing and pro wrestling co-existed for about a hundred years, and there were more than a few times where pro wrestling came across as the less-staged sport of the two. MMA has pretty much replaced boxing in the sports public's eyes so why can't MMA and pro wrestling exist in the same dual space?

 

I mean I know the real answer (Dave sees MMA as his bread and butter for the future and wants to convince the WON base he built to follow him), but it really is mind boggling to see so many people who should know better complementing the Emperor on his new clothes.

[Sean Liska]

Dave and Bryan go way too far on the MMA=Pro Wrestling thing, but I think this board sometimes goes too far the other way in reaction. I mean, UFC's biggest draw is best known for being WWE champion. UFC basically took a character that WWE created, plugged him into their environment, and because he's legit, has done huge business. Lesnar brought in a ton of first-time PPV buyers with him, and you have to assume they're WWE fans.

 

UFC has copied the WWE business model. They control all of their own production, unlike a real sports event like boxing where that's handled by the network. They book matches for business as opposed to based on rankings. Their PPVs are hyped by company-produced TV shows where guys cut promos on each other.

 

You've also got the whole Japan/MMA deal where they're so closely connected. The whole New Year's Eve tradition started with an Inoki show. Pride at times was as close to "real pro wrestling" as you can get. And didn't the term "MMA" come from Inoki matches? So I'm not sure it's fair to act like the comparisons are just a big fraud being perpetrated by Meltzer to keep subscribers.

 

Dave has also pretty much admitted on his board that he covers UFC as a business decision because the interest is so high in it, especially compared to anything in wrestling outside of WWE.

[Beast]

Dave and Bryan seem to take it so personally when someone diagrees with their pro wrestling=MMA Theorem

 

I mean they don't like it when people disagree with them on anything but on this particular topic they go straight into attack mode

Some of you are the only people I know who take so much offense to their view on this. Without saying they're exactly the same, you should be able to see how the way UFC is promoted is similar to old school wrestling. Hell, Dave even remarked about figures that show that much of UFC's audience comes from old WCW/NWA fans who are looking for the closest thing to the golden age of wrestling. If you can't move past the "UFC and WWE are the same" talk then why even bother because you'll just keep going around in circles.

 

If WWE was f'n awesome right now I'd pass on this, but all of my former wrestling friends watch UFC now and they have no idea who Dave Meltzer is. If WWE wants to stay at the top, they need to follow UFC's lead and like Dave has said, it should be easier for Vince since he can make sure the fights have the right outcome for business.

 

Edit - Posted before I saw Liska's post, but yeah, what he said.

[sek69]

Brock's MMA appeal comes from him being a scary ass legit bad dude with freakish strength and cardio for someone his size. Yes there was the segment who wanted to see a fake pro wres fighter get schooled in real fighting, but I don't think there's that many people who bought his last UFC fight based on his WWE experience.

 

Just because UFC has high production value doesn't mean they copied them from WWE any more than the NFL or any other pro sport that cares about not looking cheap on TV. As far as them booking matches, they book much more similar to boxing where they build up the personalities involved since they don't have any control over the outcome. That way, if both guys are built up prior to a fight, then they have an equal chance to make money on whoever wins. Wrestling on the other hand usually only builds up the person they are booking to win. If anything, wrestling should copy how UFC builds fights.

 

There's no debate MMA can be considered an offshoot of wrestling, especially with how it evolved in Japan from shootstyle wrestling groups and whatnot. On that point, I believe I mentioned before that no one makes the argument that soccer, rugby, and American football are all the same thing just because they all share similar roots.

 

Finally, of course it's a business decision to cover UFC, he gets paid to do that - possibly more than he makes from doing the WON. He only used to devote a paragraph, maybe a page at most to MMA before it became a regular gig for him. As he spends more and more time doing work for Yahoo Sports, he becomes more involved in the MMA world. I think that is kind of putting him in a similar bubble you see so many people who spend their life in wrestling trapped in. He seems to think MMA/UFC is on the verge of becoming the #1 sport in the world, but to be honest the only thing you can say it's beating is boxing which has been dying a slow death since Tyson got KO'd.

[Beast]

Brock's MMA appeal comes from him being a scary ass legit bad dude with freakish strength and cardio for someone his size. Yes there was the segment who wanted to see a fake pro wres fighter get schooled in real fighting, but I don't think there's that many people who bought his last UFC fight based on his WWE experience.

 

Just because UFC has high production value doesn't mean they copied them from WWE any more than the NFL or any other pro sport that cares about not looking cheap on TV. As far as them booking matches, they book much more similar to boxing where they build up the personalities involved since they don't have any control over the outcome. That way, if both guys are built up prior to a fight, then they have an equal chance to make money on whoever wins. Wrestling on the other hand usually only builds up the person they are booking to win. If anything, wrestling should copy how UFC builds fights.

 

There's no debate MMA can be considered an offshoot of wrestling, especially with how it evolved in Japan from shootstyle wrestling groups and whatnot. On that point, I believe I mentioned before that no one makes the argument that soccer, rugby, and American football are all the same thing just because they all share similar roots.

 

Finally, of course it's a business decision to cover UFC, he gets paid to do that - possibly more than he makes from doing the WON. He only used to devote a paragraph, maybe a page at most to MMA before it became a regular gig for him. As he spends more and more time doing work for Yahoo Sports, he becomes more involved in the MMA world. I think that is kind of putting him in a similar bubble you see so many people who spend their life in wrestling trapped in. He seems to think MMA/UFC is on the verge of becoming the #1 sport in the world, but to be honest the only thing you can say it's beating is boxing which has been dying a slow death since Tyson got KO'd.

Just a couple things -

 

1) There really is no denying Brock's appeal is partly because of his WWE background. His first few fights were hits solely because of that because people either wanted to see their pro wrestler beat UFC guys or vice versa. By now he's become accepted by the main fan base.

 

2) The whole 'WWE should build fights like UFC' is actually the main point.

 

3) Even if Meltzer's increased coverage of MMA might be related to Yahoo, it's not like MMA is some niche thing. The PPV buys are regularly huge, at the level where 500,000 is considered small. Like I said, UFC has taken a bunch of wrestling fans so why not cover it if the fans are there. Wrestling is stagnant. If Roller Derby was as hot as UFC I'm sure Dave would be giving coverage to that as well. He's a fan of UFC so don't give him crap for giving coverage to it.