El-P

You don't think there's a huge difference of talent between a guy who's able to execute a script and a guy who's able to put his own match together or even call it in the ring ?

Awful... That's the issue with older territory wrestler, they were a bunch of real lowlives in wrestling during that time...

It does start on the slower sides of things. Jun as the NOAH Ace was an experiment that didn't quite work at that point, and there's something missing there too, as you'd expect much more heat and dickiness out of Jun in a NJPW setting. Of course we're deep into Inoki fucking up the company, so it's not like it's a hot context anyway, with Nagata coming off getting legit killed in an MMA match (dumbest idea ever from Inoki). Still, it takes off after a while, when Nagata drops Jun on his head, which will result in a payback spot in the form of a great DDT on the ramp. The piledriver that follows looks indeed shaky at best. Still, that's the story there. Nagata is actually kinda heelish a bit, which the crowd doesn't seem to like (odd). Things really pick up when the bombs are coming, after Jun realizes he can't exactly exchange strikes with Nagata (the hard slapfest was what ignited the real heat). Jun putting Nagata in his own Nagata-lock was kinda neat too. But really, it's more of a bombfest with counters in the finishing stretch, which is fitting for a Dome show and it gets really good. Nagata actually shines more to me there with his execution and selling, in a position where he's working from underneath, trying to get by Jun's more dangerous attacks, which will end up breaking him at the end. Very good/Excellent match overall.

I'm not wanting anything out of pro-wrestling crowds. But there's something interesting to me about the fact that what is *real* about pro-wrestling today is what resonnates with a particular kind of crowd, whose enjoyment and reactions can't be based on a predetermined role that they are supposed to fill simply because thet react mostly to that *real* element of modern pro-wrestling (as opposed to "investing emotions on a character"). A crowd that is mostly derired (including on this board) because they are a "bad crowd who only pop for spots and don't cheer babyfaces and boo heels". I don't pass judgement on either of them (and really, my particular taste in atmosphere makes me enjoy a boo-heel/cheer-faces crowd a lot more). As far as "being too stupid or emotional", there's a can of worms to be opened there actually, going back to the "good old days" and the "southern territories" which were supposed to get the most heat. What consisted of the pro-wrestling crowds then, depending on the territories ? Was there a conscious notion that you would manipulate less educated people to get the most genuine reactions ? Why would the NY audience be considered "smarter" than say, the Tennessee one ? There's a class disdain issue buried somewhere… Also, were the genuine crowds of the 80's better because they woud chant "faggots" at effeminate workers, or chear Magnum TA when he would sexually assault Baby Doll and she would "like it !!!!!!!" ? Anyway, tons of questions there... I don't sell shit.

People are cheating, so of course, I gotta say, Lucha Underground is my promotion now.

No. I also have never seen this word in any other context. And I have no idea how to pronounce it. "Getting his/her ass kicked" is easier to me.

That kind of wording says it all actually. NXT is a "smarter" crowd than your average WWE crowd. They "invest in genuine, classic heel-face dynamic".

It's funny because I became a fan via WWF in 1990 and stayed a fan until 1999, only got WCW in 96 (and ECW from 96 about one year and a half later on Bravo once I got satellite channels !), and although my formative years as a fan and a "mark", really, were all about WWF, today I'd always be more inclined to revisit WCW, especially the Nitro years. Which I have done on multiple occasions, while I really never went back to RAW from the same time period (which I loved back then). Probably why I also am going through TNA and never bothered to explore much of the 00's WWE in depths. But I guess if I really had to pick only one. Well. ECW ! ECW ! ECW ! Yeah, I know. But there's something about that promotion that was fascinating to me from the very first time I was able to watch it. The mid 90's feeling is something that will never get old with me. And although I probably won't watch very much of it anymore (Tony "announcing" Barely Legal was the first time in years I had watched ECW since my "global" watch), getting through some of the Legends of ECW roundtables recently reminded me just how much I have loved a lot of this stuff (Francine is so adorable and funny on those too). And yeah, I'm a Raven fan.

Funny, I've been thinking about the first point about athletics/strenght feats a lot lately the same way he does, meaning that pro-wrestling has never been more *real* than it is today, while at the same time never been so unrealistic. And that pro-wrestling becoming more real (which can be traced back to the garbage/hardcore scene and to a lesser extent to one japanese way of working really stiff) goes along with the fact it can't be *perceived as real* anymore because despite the suspension of disbelief, there's no real heat today (in Mexico maybe) and people really are onto the joke and really playing along. Even in NXT for instance, no one actually really hates Ciampa, everyone is very aware of their respective role in the broader sense, the audience is now playing along. Which wasn't the case at first, as the "smart" crowds were more inclined on shitting on babyfaces and chant "you fucked up" rather than playing the role they were supposed to play in a context when they couldn't *be* that role anymore. So, the more real the athletic prowess gets, the more genuine the reactions are too, because no matter what we can say about some of those insane flippy sequences some of us hates so much, it is indeed incredible feats of athleticism you don't see anywhere else. That's why in a way, I find the idea of a "good wrestling crowd" being the one who plays along (cheers the babyfaces, boo the heels) kinda odd because it's not the most genuine wrestling crowd. In a way it's even more post-modern than the indy crowd who genuinely goes insane for crazy spotty shit. I'm not sure if working yourself up to the point you actually believe (or make-believe) you hate Ciampa is better than actually going insane for one of Ospreay vs Ricochet ridiculous-SFX looking sequence. There's something almost retromaniac about pretending you really hate a pro-wrestler in 2018. So, pro-wrestling as figure skating anyone ?

As amusing as it may be for people to offer authoritative comments on matches they haven't seen, let the record reflect that Okada/Tanahashi did not contain a single big move 2.9 kick out. Indeed. And it was a MOTYC in my book. I would give it ****1/2 (which is the requisite for MOTYC to me) if I was still in the snowflakes kinda mood.

Yeah, it's ridiculous. The workers are robots when they read stupid lines of "dialogues" but they really also are robots to a degree when you have *two people*, in some case, putting a match together for them. It really puts the concept of "worker" in question, because you never know if what the guys are doing is actually their own doing or if they are basically just working from a layout/script that was given to them.

This is Kawada, the last remaining AJ faithfull against Zero-1 dickhead Ohtani, who really never has proved himself at that level in single competition. So at first, he really can't hang with Kawada, which is the story. When he does that boot in the face deal in the corner, my thoughts were "Hum... Kawada ain't gonna like that." Yep. Kawada gets up and slaps the shit out of Ohtani. Basically, every time Ohtani was too much of an irrespectful dickhead, Kawada would get up, walk right in his face and kick the shit out of him. Ohtani's strategy is to go after a knee, with quick dropkicks and kneebars. He also no-sells regularly Kawada's jumping kicks to the back of the head, which can be seen as annoying, but more on that later. Kawada doesn't forget to sell his knee while he goes back on offense. Some nice double boots to the face and backdrops back and forth. Ohtani basically has to go back to the knee to get an advantage up to the point they are trading bombs and Ohtani insists on not-selling those kicks to the back of the head. What a dick. At some point though, Kawada's offense gets too heavy. And while he tries to show off as the dick he is and keeps on no-selling those kicks, he finally ends up taking one too many and gets pinned after.... a kick to the back of the head. That's poetic justice. Excellent, bordering great match for Kawada's last Triple Crown win.

So, basically, the Network podcast is a rehash of older podcasts. I don't see the point of listening to those when you could have the original thing, without the WWE filter.

He's thankfully stayed out of Lawler territory with that stuff. I think he knows what lines not to cross. Lawler turning into a legit creepy old man during the Attitude Era really killed whatever goodwill I had left for him in that role.

Agree, but it has to be said Traylor had some terrific matches with Vader & Sting in WCW though, before he kinda faded in the background. Didn't he got that contract where he was paid for every PPV even if he wasn't booked on them, only it was signed way before they went with 12 PPV's a year so he ended up collecting easy paycheks or being booked in meaningless matches just because he was being paid anyway ? Man, I miss WCW every day of my wrestling fandom...

That was the intent at first. You're naive. So let's bring content back. Of sorts. Sable is an interesting case, because she had or displayed exactly not talent whatsever apart from modeling T-shirt with her obnoxious fake boobs. Yet, in 1999, she was arguably the biggest star on WWF TV next to Austin. Were the Attitude Era mainstream fans so desperate for boobies to make her one of the biggest ratings peaks (pu intended) when she really had nothing in term of promo ability (let's not talk about her in-ring prowess) nor even character even ? Her heel turn before Mania 15, another brillant idea by Vince Russo at his "peak", gave us the immortal catchphrase of "Are you ready for the grrrrrind ?" followed by the lamest hip-swivel ever. Really, is Sable the biggest case of looks being the *only* factor as a needle mover (pun intended) in the pro-wrestling business ?

Most annoying call in current WWE announcing : "For the win !" = nearfall

She was drop dead gorgeous plus she semed to have a lot of fun playing her Big Poppa Pump freak role. She was better than Midajah on all acount.

Ok, so I'm not completely senile yet ! Yeah, I remember about that pseudo alpha-male bullshit attitude. Don't ask me why. But I remember he talked about how he was repulsed by the idea of anal sex...

Honestly, TNA has mostly been much easier to go through (ok, not the early weekly PPV era nor the first iMPACT months) than modern WWE or, *gasp* Road to Hell WCW.

My opinion on them is : fuck those grossly overpaid tools. I hope the french team will be eliminated quickly from the World Cup, which is always a fucking pain in the ass for people like me who don't give a shit about this circus. Usually, things cool down once the home team is gone, so it's actually possible to have a beer or cofee without being bothered by multicolored painted douchebags screaming like complete idiots.

Nah, that's Strummer's sig, and it's definitely a Norm MacDonald line. RE had enough of his own issues both sex-related and not. I would have sworn this came from a RE post back in the days… damn…

Got more than 2000 references on my iMac (from my 1300 + CD's and now that Bandcamp is a thing, well, I'm fucked)… So, it's all over the place, although you wouldn't find much mainstream shit on it. But I'd say it goes from Darkthrone to Kylie Minogue. The last two years have been all about 70's Turkish music and the current underground scene too. But really, no way to just try to pinpoint a style in particular. Ok, what is called "indie rock" today (and basically in the last 15 years) can go fuck itself, it's boring and derivative as fuck. TV Shows ? Not watched a lot, really, but who needs much when Twin Peaks is in your life ? Loved 24 back in the days, Weeds, True Detective (yeah, *even season 2*), lately GLOW of course, The Deuce… French stuff that know one would now here (Le Bureau des Légendes, awesome stuff)... Don't give a fuck about sports in general (actually don't like it at all). Hates football (fuck the incoming World Cup so much). Except sumo, of course. But it's a work.

Like I said many times, the first two third of 2008 have been the best since the 2005/06 D'Amore era. 2007 was a lot rougher… Oh, and Kurt Angle was clearly an MVP in TNA that year (2008) and his stock also has risen a whole lot with me.

I think there's a general tendancy to overrate older guys matches, honestly, because it usually fit a preconcieved, cool (and a bit snobish, let's admit it for once) narrative of "This guy at 55 is still better than any 30 years old worker". Whereas "This guy at 55 is still damn good" would be enough of a praise in a lot of cases.