WON 2010

[S.L.L.]

I prefer 45 years old to 25 after debut for the reason you hit upon: folks like Kurt Angle sitting around until they're 54.

But....

 

Setting aside Rey's qualifications, there really is something uncomfortable about a 35 year old going into the WON HOF.

Vader sitting around for eight years is bad, Rey sitting around for ten years is good? And realistically, that is what he's doing. You may not be comfortable with him going in at 35, and I don't even think he should be on the ballot until he's 39, but it seems fairly unlikely that he's going to be doing anything between 2014 and 2020 that's going to severely affect his candidacy. And with almost a decade of highly-touted work and viability as a ratings draw under his belt before Angle even debuted, it seems really silly for Angle to go on the ballot before Rey does. 2023 seems harsh, and it's true that either standard would result in guys who built up candidacies early waiting around. I just think it makes more sense to use a standard that actually ties to their wrestling career and is somehow reflective of that than one just tied to existing.

[ohtani's jacket]

One wonders what the voting base will be like in ten years time. Surely if people think it's bad now it's only going to get worse.

[kjh]

Given that this year's WrestleMania main event was between two guys who were about 45, that age doesn't seem like too old a cut off. I mean do we really think Rey won't still be working in a decade's time, if he can still hobble to the ring that is?

[jdw]

Growing up in the area watching the TV, Lou Abano was THE manager in the WWF.

Again, what top of the card guys did he manage relative to the Wiz and Freddy?

 

Watching the MSG cards, the Tag Titles are just "part of the show". They're not really the Bruno/Bob main event, or often even the #2 match (such as the Bruno Matches on the undercard of Superstar's cards, or some of the other big singles matches supporting the title match).

 

The comment was:

 

"Albano carried the WWWF territory on the heel side for more than a decade."

-Dave Meltzer

 

I would be interested in exactly what 11 year ("more than a decade") stretch that is?

 

We know it's not literally the case, right? He clearly didn't carry the heel side in 1977. That would be The Champ and his Manager, neither of whom was Lou. And given that Graham ran deep into 1978 as a/the top heel in the promotion:

 

* three mains against Bob

* two strong supporting matches against Dusty to blow off their feud

* and one against Bruno to blow off theirs

 

The last was on October 23, 1978, which ironically had a main even where The Wiz managed Ernie Ladd against Bob.

 

So largely two years right in the middle of some 11+ year run by Albano where the "heel side" was clearly carried by Graham and/or Wiz.

 

Would Dave agree with that?

 

Of course!

 

I mean he's the guy who put Graham in the HOF specifically because of that two year run being the majority of Graham's argument.

 

I don't doubt there are quite a few more challengers that Alabano managed that are reflected on the History of the WWE site, simply because he doesn't have full details on managers. But we have the Wiz listed as early as April 1973 managing Don Leo Jonathan against Bruno. We have Blassie managing no later than April 14, 1975 (Spiros Arion's slow off with Bruno, with the feud starting back in February). The earliest we have for Lou at MSG is June 15, 1970 managing Verdu against Bruno. It's entirely possible that he started earlier as Ivan had challenges earlier in the year. But the same goes for the Wiz. We know he managed Stasiak to his win over Pedro, but it's just not listed.

 

It's also hard to say that Lou got "the big heel challengers" while Wiz and Freddie go the weak one. Wiz got Billy, and Wiz got Patera. The historyofthewwe site indicates the Wiz had Patterson in the third match, not listing a manger in the other ones. Those were among the key ones.

 

It would be interesting to try to chart who managed whom based on the available MSG and Philly shows and matches. I just don't think it makes Lou come across that the "carried" guy. One of a rather strong three headed monster of managers.

 

I suspect the argument would be that Cornette didn't manage a group that was on top for a long time. I wouldn't argue that. Again, I'm the guy who has long argued that Jimbo should be grouped with the MX: that's why he's a HOFer. He was a key part of a great "group", even if the group wasn't a long term monster draw.

 

John

[jdw]

Back on the age limit topic, I have a question. Do any legitimate sport halls-of-fame induct people who are still active players?

Yes.

 

Women's Golf has some fixed set of wins that gets one into the HOF.

 

In basketball, *coaches* can go into the HOF before the retire. This is in contrast to MLB where managers can't go in while still active (unless its as a player).

 

There are other HOFs that are like that. I believe that WRW Jr. and PDW are in the Bowling HOF, as are several other active players I believe.

 

It's not terribly common, though.

 

I know it's a different dynamic since you can wrestle long after you would have retired in any real sport, but it still seems odd to induct a guy who is still wrestling on television every week.

 

 

The age limit at 45 is indeed arbitrary, since you could in theory get a guy like DDP or Batista who started really late and then got into the HOF long before they have decades-plural in the business.

Neither are HOFers. The question then becomes: who has turned 45, looked like a HOFer on a short career, and then on reflection probably not deserved it?

 

 

Or, as mentioned, a fellow like Rey who started really early and would have to wait a pointlessly long time to get into the Hall.

I honestly don't get the notion of why keeping someone "waiting" is a bad thing in terms of eligibility.

 

Shawn and Taker were actually eligible for a long time before getting voted in, just missing it several times. When one looks at them on the list of HOFers, it doesn't say "barely made it in". They're just in.

 

In contrast, if Rey had to wait until he turned 45, what really does it matter? Waiting isn't a problem with the HOF. It's the people who fall in that age range too quickly and we really haven't seen enough of their career.

 

 

If the point is to just keep another Angle from happening, why not lay down a simple 10 or 15 years-in-the-ring qualification? That keeps any flash in the pan from being prematurely inducted, and also doesn't seem needlessly long for anyone who might have already done plenty enough to be worthy of getting in.

10-15 years historically isn't that long of a time. Jericho was around for 6 year before he got to WCW. There have been plenty of peopel like that, and likely will be more: Danielson worked more than a decade in indies before the WWE. Sure, they're younger guys... but we'll run into older guys as well.

 

John

[Al]

Age vs. Experience as a criteria. We're all shooting for the same goal, which is to avoid considering wrestlers who are firmly mid-career. You could probably make the experience requirement 20 years if you feel 25 is too long. By any standard you will have highly deserving candidates who would need to wait a couple years. But that is not uncommon, and in MLB some players end up waiting 20 years to get inducted by the writers.

 

The issue that the Observer would face is that such a policy would lead to a dearth of candidates, a gap where the wrestlers eligible would have already been inducted while we wait longer for new candidates. You could solve that to some degree by placing increased emphasis on historical voting in the interim. You don't want to force inductees but at the same time you don't want a HOF to sit stagnant for five years.

[rovert]

One wonders what the voting base will be like in ten years time. Surely if people think it's bad now it's only going to get worse.

Shingo and Davey Richards for the HOF?

[KrisZ]

I mean the original HOF inductees included Heenan, Cornette, Wild Red Berry, and Blassie. So I assume those are the other four in top five of all time?

 

jdw was around when the other four were discussed. Did number five come up at time?

Dave wouldn't rate Blassie that high. He would have Jimmy Hart in his place.

 

The "carried the heel side" doesn't sound right. Someone should track who was the manager of each heel that main evented MSG in the "Albano Era" - i.e. the person who was opposite the Champ and/or the Heel Champs. I don't think Lou come out on top.

 

John

 

This is who managed who in the main events at MSG from 1970-84. Albano dominated from 1970-72 as he managed just about every main event heel until Stasiak.

 

Albano = Crusher Verdu, Mongols, Bulldog Brower, Ivan Koloff, Blackjack Mulligan, Tarzan Tyler, Luke Graham, Toru Tanaka, Freddie Blassie, Baron Mikel Scicluna, King Curtis Iaukea, George Steele, The Spoiler, Mr. Fuji, Moondog Mayne, Nikolai Volkoff, Valiants, Bobby Duncum, Bugsy McGraw, Ken Patera, Yukon Lumberjacks, Wild Samoans, Jimmy Snuka, Magnificent Muraco, Greg Valentine

 

Wizard = Stan Stasiak, Pampero Firpo, Ernie Ladd, Don Leo Jonathan, Killer Kowalski, John Tolos, Superstar Billy Graham, Stan Hansen, Ken Patera, Greg Valentine, Pat Patterson, Sgt. Slaughter, Magnificent Muraco, Bob Orton Jr., Buddy Rose, Masked Superstar

 

Blassie = Spiros Arion, Waldo Von Erich, Bruiser Brody, Baron Von Raschke, Peter Maivia, Iron Sheik, Swede Hanson, Killer Khan, Adrian Adonis, Jesse Ventura, Big John Studd

[Death From Above]

Back on the age limit topic, I have a question. Do any legitimate sport halls-of-fame induct people who are still active players?

Poker is a "game" not a "sport", but the poker hall of fame is the only example not cited by jdw that I can think of offhand. Makes sense in that case since it's theoretically possible to keep playing until you die, a la Doyle Brunson. I can't remember if Phil Ivey is in already or not, but either way he's only in his mid-30's and will probably be playing for another 40 years, if he wants to.

[tomk]

This is who managed who in the main events at MSG from 1970-84. Albano dominated from 1970-72 as he managed just about every main event heel until Stasiak.

Thanks.

 

This is what Meltz wrote on the figurefour board when asked why Albano (if he was the anchor for so many years) wasn't then in the oiginal class:

 

Because everything he did from 1985 on ranged from horrible to a complete embarrassment. But I had to recognize he got Crusher Verdu, a completely worthless guy who never did anything his entire career, over to where he and Bruno Sammartino broke a gate record that had held up in MSG for 50 years. And for the next 14 years he was the single key component on the heel side for a company that did strong consistent business. In that entire time, I believe every Albano protege on top drew well except Bugsy McGraw was going to flop against Bruno and had no advance, so they changed it to Bruno vs. McGraw & Albano in a handicap match late (and in those days, MSG never changed main events) and they still ended up doing well.

 

The other negative as compared with Heenan especially, but almost every other manager is when it came time for the payoff where the face would get to him in the big match, he was just terrible. People would wait six months to see Albano finally get beat up one-on-one and he'd stand there, go out drunk as a skunk, blade right in front of everyone, never sell, and at three minutes, do his walk out count out (Lou made it clear he'd never job thinking it would kill his heat, when he finally did in the 80s, he told people at the time he knew his run was over).

 

But aside from carrying the territory on the heel side, especially important in the late 70s and early 80s, he also was the one who got Cyndi Lauper & David Wolfe in to wrestling, and you take that connection out, odds are very good Vince would have gone bankrupt by late 1984 or early 1985.

Still based on KrisZ's list I don't see "carrying the territory on the heel side".

[KrisZ]

Albano was the mouthpiece for almost all of his wrestlers because they weren't good promos, I got a lot of WWF TV from 1979-81 especially and he was a heatseeker at those tapings more than Blassie or the Wiz.

[Strummer]

seeing the Cap' blade right on camera on one of the first Coliseum video releases freaked me out as a kid. I kept rewinding it and the crazy bastard just keeps slicing himself right in front of everyone

[sek69]

So I'm thinking it may be time for Dave to tweak the threshold needed to gain entry to the HOF. The voting base seems so ...watered down or spread out that almost no one but the no-brainer candidates will ever hit 60% it seems. I mean, would anyone make the argument that there were only two names on this year's list worth inducting? There's not enough people voting from outside the US for anyone from Mexico or the UK to get in, and most of the eligible people from the US have the stigma of "if they were that good, they would have been elected in by now" and probably won't get in until they get to the point where Dave puts them in as a historical candidate. I'm guessing WWE guys who become eligible will start getting the official Dave Push next year since it seems pretty clear no one else is getting voted in.

[jdw]

60% is a low threshold.

 

I think the problem remains that there's no control over who can vote for Mexico candidates and Japan candidates. It's still on the "honor system": if you vote for a luchador, you're an expert on lucha. Dittos Japan. Dittos old timers.

 

John

[KrisZ]

Dave needs to expand his voting base in certain areas like Mexico & Japan.

[jdw]

Two things on explaining it:

 

#1 - Dave thinks he has

 

In his mind, he thinks he's explained it and it's clear. As a voter and a long time reader/listener of Dave-speak, I actually get how he's explained it and have tried to make it a bit clearer for folks.

 

#2 - If he explains it any more, it's not going to look good

 

I've tried to get that point across a few times: if you vote for a Japanese wrestler, you're counted as a Japanese Ballot. Doesn't mean you know a thing about Japanese wrestling other than Dave has said good things about Kobash over the years. You are now a Japan Voter.

 

Dave doesn't tell voters what categories they are qualified/eligible to vote in. It's up to the voter to simply fill out his ballot.

 

We can debate whether that's a problem. I tend to think it is. I'm frankly not qualfied to vote on Euro wrestlers, and shouldn't be allowed to. I'm marginal on Mexico: better than probably a lot of people tossing votes to luchadors (given the number over Ballots counted), but compared to Dr Lucha, Jose and a ton of lucha-loving posters on freaking message boards who will never get a sniff of a ballot, I'm pretty woeful. I tend to lean on the knowledge of others to help educate me, but it's not that different than if Dan Wahlers were simply taking my votes on Japan to figure out who to vote on. Dan really doesn't know enough about Japan to be voting on those guys... and I'd be more than willing to agree that I'm not in the class of Mexico voters that Dave should be cultivating.

 

Mexico, Japan and Europe are pretty easy to fix. Dave could start off by identfying a number of voters to be the Japan Voters, the Mexico Voters and the Euro Voters. I don't mean that publically: Dave himself putting together a list for each. There's also nothing wrong with going to a Dr Lucha or Jose and asking them to identify some other potential voters who have the depth of knowledge on Lucha (in this case it would largely need to be historical) that warrant a ballot.

 

You're not looking for 60 voters in each... unless you luck into Dr Lucha hooking up some folks down in Mexico who are super knowledgeale.

 

Japan would likely be larger, but I also wouldn't start it with a voter Cast Of Thousands. Build it up.

 

Is it worth it?

 

I think for Mexico and Europe it is because there's still a lot of talent to be looked at there. In Japan, it's slim pickings now. I have two worries:

 

* the current mass of Japan voters making bad picks

 

* a smaller group of Japan voters feeling that they need to "pick someone" just to have someone go in

 

The first was a worry with how close Sak was to getting in. His candidacy appears to have cooled off, but he's not going away anytime soon.

 

The second... we've seen that in other HOF's, right?

 

John

[sek69]

I'm more worried about the lucha candidates, unless someone current jumps to WWE I don't think anyone will get in from Mexico other than maybe Dr. Wagner Sr.

[Loss]

* a smaller group of Japan voters feeling that they need to "pick someone" just to have someone go in

Pro wrestling is a dying business. This has already started happening in some ways. Thinking about who is eligible next year, now that Rey is in, even if I had a HOF ballot, I'd vote for Jerry Jarrett, but that would be it.

 

There's not really anyone else I can think of.

 

So I'm guessing in order to keep the concept from fading completely out, it will eventually be expanded to include MMA, because John Cena is the only active guy I can think of that even has a case.

 

If Edge gets in next year, that's an all new low, as he makes Angle look like a brilliant candidate.

[Bix]

Dave started an MMA HOF that mysteriously disappeared when the UFC HOF started up.

[tomk]

Dave is a mark for folks in the biz having votes. If you:

A)provided him with the addresses of Emilio Charles Jr, Javier Llanes, Canek, Perro Aguayo, Hijo del Santo, Cesar, Apollo Dantes, Mocho Cota, Dos Caras, Satanico, Mano Negra, Dory Dixon, Super Astro, el Matematico, Solar, Fuerza, Lola Gonzalez

B] Offered to translate the ballots for him

 

Would he turn you down?

 

Would that be particularly difficult to do? That’s pretty much a random list of folks who I remember having their phone numbers posted in “Box y Lucha” within last seven years. (plus Satanico who Schneider was at one point in contact with, and Dixon who Fernandez at one point was in contact with).

[jdw]

Someone hook Dave up. Probably good if it was an existing Lucha voter like Dr Lucha to do the hooking up.

 

John

[Eduardo]

Dave started an MMA HOF that mysteriously disappeared when the UFC HOF started up.

Not really, you got your time frame mixed up. The UFC Hall of Fame started in 2003, by the time Meltzer opened the MMA HOF in 2006, the UFC HOF had already inducted Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, and Dan Severn in the previous years. But if I remember the story correctly that Dave once told, he said that some of the people around him told him it wasn't a good idea and it would be a better to get rid of it. I can't remember if he said why they thought he should get rid of it or who it was that told him although I think it was his fellow colleagues in the MMA media.

[Bix]

Ah yes, that was it.

[rovert]

Dave on Ed in San Antonio's show discussing the HOF:

 

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/edward-loredo...gobserver-hall-

 

Dave starts in the first 2/3 minutes and is on for 40. Nothing really notable.

[Al]

The other negative as compared with Heenan especially, but almost every other manager is when it came time for the payoff where the face would get to him in the big match, he was just terrible. People would wait six months to see Albano finally get beat up one-on-one and he'd stand there, go out drunk as a skunk, blade right in front of everyone, never sell, and at three minutes, do his walk out count out (Lou made it clear he'd never job thinking it would kill his heat, when he finally did in the 80s, he told people at the time he knew his run was over).

This amazes me. You get Albano in a tag match with Don Muraco against Snuka and Skaaland, and its Muraco taking the fall to save Albano's heat. Though I love this MSG entry.

 

Andre the Giant, Rocky Johnson, & Jimmy Snuka defeated Big John Studd, Afa, & Capt. Lou Albano in a Best 3 out of 5 falls match at 9:36, 3-0; fall #1: the heels were disqualified at 6:43; fall #2: Snuka pinned Afa at 1:38 with a splash off the top; fall #3: Andre pinned Albano with a sit-down splash at 1:15

I wonder if that was voluntary.