Looks like the raid is on

[sek69]

from WO.com:

 

 

Super Luchas reported on their cover today that Averno will be signing with WWE and most likely dropping his mask to La Mascara at CMLL's next big show on June 17th.

 

The story claims that he had a tryout match with WWE last fall and did well, but WWE was concerned about his age. However, Sin Cara isn't getting over like they thought he would feuding with guys like Chavo Guerrero Sr., and so the idea is they need to bring in someone who can work his style and showcase his strengths, which Averno can do.

 

The story claims WWE is looking at two other young CMLL luchadors as well.

 

More on this story throughout the week.

I wonder if CMLL will end up like early 80s AWA when Vince decided he wanted 3/4ths of their talent pool.

 

AAA survived all their guys going to WCW in the 90s, so who knows.

[El-P]

So, WWE wants to kill the lucha libre tradition also ? If I was a lucha fan, I would be both pissed and depressed about things to come....

[MJH]

CMLL will survive through just about anything, but whilst it's exactly what they should do to help Mistico/Sin Cara (even Danielson was struggling to take the spots well), it's very depressing for Lucha fans. Even though there's certain people who'll say America (well, WWE) has had a hold on it for a number of years, this is a much bigger step, or at least appears to be, than just poaching a top star. Whose the guy CMLL are hesitant to push on the undercard because he speaks perfect English and they fear if he gets over the WWE will take him too?

[sek69]

cubsfan is quick to point out on his blog that this is in fact not a raid on CMLL, but when you go out and sign two of their top guys and are actively looking to sign others I don't know what else you'd call it.

[Loss]

Averno is awesome!

[Cox]

I don't think it's going to be an AWA in 1985-style raid. They're probably just going to bring in a couple of guys who can work with Sin Cara. He's an HHH project, which Vince made public on the recent investor's call, so they have a lot riding on making sure Sin Cara is a success. Bringing in 2-3 guys who can work with Sin Cara until he gets used to working WWE style isn't a raid, it's a good idea.

[smkelly]

I thought CMLL had their big names under written contract though?

[Tim Evans]

Not very good contracts it seems.

 

I wouldn't call this a raid more than it's CMLL getting what they had coming. After years of playing it safe and being lazy, guys are seeing a new opportunity and leaving. WWE doesn't want to kill Lucha libre, Mexico is doing a good job of it by itself. I think a couple more guys like Volador and Fantasma will go to WWE before it's over.

[MikeCampbell]

I'll admit to not being the most well-versed lucha fan, yet. But most the better Mistico matches I've seen have been with Averno. I loved the Mistico/Volodar jr. matches for the sheer hate, but I think Mistico/Averno were better matches overall.

 

That being said, I'm wondering what some of the more knowledegable lucha fans would think the odds are of Sin Cara/Averno being like Sasuke/TAKA in '97, where TAKA was the one who got over in the end and Sasuke was quietly gone.

[EricR]

How is this depressing for lucha fans? There are over 100 luchadors that make weekly TV that I enjoy. WWE can't sign all of them. Lucha didn't suck when WCW signed a bunch of luchadors. WWE is killing the lucha libre tradition!!! They've signed 2 guys from a company with the biggest current roster in wrestling!

[ohtani's jacket]

I wish they'd sign more.

[sek69]

I'm not knocking WWE for making the move, they invested in Sin Cara so why not get a guy who makes him look good? The only guy they had on the roster who could have had a chance of working lucha style had an absolute shitburger of a match with him on the last PPV so they pretty much had to get someone else.

 

Just saying it sucks for CMLL since their business has been down, they lose another upper level guy, and it pretty much just blew the finish for the big match they had to go up against Triplemania (Averno vs La Mascara mask match but who knows if anyone paying to see the match reads the internet).

[Johnny Sorrow]

How is this depressing for lucha fans? There are over 100 luchadors that make weekly TV that I enjoy. WWE can't sign all of them. Lucha didn't suck when WCW signed a bunch of luchadors. WWE is killing the lucha libre tradition!!! They've signed 2 guys from a company with the biggest current roster in wrestling!

Dude, don't you realize that it's all an evil plan by the maniacal Vince to "kill the Lucha tradition!". I can see him now, in the penthouse office suite at Titan Towers, swilrling his brandy while looking out to the horizon. "So, these Mexicans have their beloved Lucha Libre...well not for long. Soon, I will destroy their beloved lucha and Entertainment will reign supreme! BWAH HA H0-HA-H0HA-HA!"

[smkelly]

How forgiving are Mexican promotions? From the report I read on DVDVR, Averno did not make a good last impression.

[Ditch]

I'll add that based on TV ratings in Mexico, the ones primarily responsible for killing the 'lucha tradition' are the Mexican fans and promotions.

 

I'm in the "not a raid" camp. WWE isn't going to sign 5+, or even 3+ in all likelihood. Meanwhile, how many AWA guys did they sign, 10 or more?

[JazeUSA]

Averno is a great worker, I hope WWE doesn't ruin him if/when he signs.

hopefully he'll be used as more than just a job guy to help get someone else over, i guess time will tell.

[Ryan Faulconer]

WWE were stupid to think that just because someone is named Chavo Guerrero Jr. doesn't mean he knows ANYTHING about working lucha style. He's not a luchadore. Signing a few guys from CMLL might become a blessing a disguise for them. Their roster is huge and they can just shuffle some lower or midcard guys up a level and there probably won't be much difference in the quality of the matches if any.

[khawk20]

Meanwhile, how many AWA guys did they sign, 10 or more?

It go so ridiculous that they signed Brad Rheingans to come in and job on house shows to guys like Tiger Chung Lee, and this was circa 1988. Rheingans was still the centerpiece of Verne's training camp at the time (so I've heard).

 

Guys that had defaulted to the higher spots on the card in the AWA, like perennial mid-carder Dave Petersen, were signed away as well and used primarily as jobbers. Hell, they even signed Baron Von Raschke away from Verne briefly to manage the Powers of Pain.

 

The signing of Mexican stars is nothing like that was, imo. Vince was actively trying to put Verne out of business. if Vince was trying to do the same thing here, we'd all be able to tell.

[S.L.L.]

WWE were stupid to think that just because someone is named Chavo Guerrero Jr. doesn't mean he knows ANYTHING about working lucha style.

I'm disinclined to think that WWE were smart enough to be thinking this, but I think that's not a terrible approach. I mean, the whole reason I was excited about Sin Cara despite having never been a Mistico fan was that Mistico as top dog in CMLL got to have the whole promotion built stylistically around him...and it sucked. But I thought going to WWE might force him out of that and make him more adaptable and, with any luck, better. It's also why I liked that they debuted him by running in against Sheamus, as "high energy babyface getting wailed on by heel brawler" is a match he can work really well (see his '05 match with Perrito), and also one that could fit into "WWE style" and help him transition into working everyone else in the company. Chavo seemed like a guy who could fill the Sheamus role reasonably well if they weren't actually going to follow up on that.

 

Obviously, they didn't follow up on that, and the Chavo match didn't work (haven't seen it, so I don't know how much of it was due to Chavo getting hurt and how much was Sin Cara just being that bad, but still). I like Averno, and it'll be interesting to see what he can do in WWE other than carry Sin Cara, but if Sin Cara is just having the same old matches in his comfort zone against the guy he worked them best against...well, then what? Where does he go from there? He still hasn't adapted his style to work half-way decent matches with anyone else, and WWE isn't going to change the company style to accommodate him like CMLL did (nor should they, nor would I want them to). This isn't a raid. This an admission of defeat.

[El-P]

Of course I didn't mean that Vince *really wanted* to kill lucha, it was a figure of speach considering WWE already killed US wresting with its monopoly and vision of what wrestling should be. I guess him picking up stars from an already damaged market won't do any good.

I have never seen Mistico, what is the consensus about him, what do lucha fans think about this guy ?

[EricR]

I like Mistico more than most, but he is flawed. He has some impressive spots, and he gets ridiculous height on bumps, and can bump really crazy at times. But his pacing can be sketchy and his strikes (even stuff like kicks to the stomach) look weak. But, I think he takes a good beating and I have gotten into plenty of his mid-match comebacks. If we were doing a 500 during his best years, I can see him peaking at the high 100s.

[sek69]

SLL makes a good point. Say bringing in Averno works and gets Sin Cara over like nuts, then what? He still can't match up with anyone in the entire company other than Rey, and they certainly wouldn't want to pair those two up since it would be obvious they want him to be New Rey.

[MJH]

They give themselves more options, though, once he's properly over. The Chavo feud makes sense as an angle, but he's been awful in the ring against Mistico. I don't see how people can be putting the sloppiness on Mistico when it's only the spots that require a base that aren't coming off. Hell, the guy did well to turn half of those spots into at least something. They obviously want his first few months to get over how spectacular he is. It's working to a point, but they haven't as yet paired him with a guy who can help him. Even Danielson who obviously has great execution generally at what he does, whilst he did better than most, he wasn't notably great at it in the way Averno/Ultimo/whomever might be. Presumably Del Rio would be a feud they're looking at, already they're billing Mistico/Sin Cara as being from a poor background. He can work between the two styles. By then you're a few months down the line, he's over (hopefully), and you have a lot more leeway than they do at the minute.

[FLIK]

Haven't seen any of Mistico's WWE stuff and except for a short couple weeks whear I kind of got re-interested to see his heel turn I haven't followed CMLL closely in years. Based on all the talk i've been hearing about how bad he's done so far though, i'm wondering just what the main thing is that's preventing him from adapting so much?

 

Lots of luchadors have made their way outside of Mexico to the US/Japan over the years and i've never heard people make as big of a deal out of anyone failing to catch on to the new style as I have about Mistico in WWE.

 

WWE were stupid to think that just because someone is named Chavo Guerrero Jr. doesn't mean he knows ANYTHING about working lucha style.

And yeah this. When I heard about this match I actually thought it might be good but that's because the last time I saw Chavo he was still a pretty awesome worker. That was quite a while ago ofcourse and maybe he's declined since then, dunno, some people seem to be down on him for a while. But as far as lucha style goes, as far as I know I don't think he ever worked for any of the Mexico promotions did he?

[Bix]

Chavito definitely worked on Lucha shows in the two years+ that he worked on before going to WCW.