Dylan Waco Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Colon is a total picture candidate no matter what others want to say. You view the total package with those guys. No one is going to compartmentalize. As an aside I'm still digging up stuff on Blackwell to try and get a full picture and in the process I was shocked to see how consistently Patera was as a main eventer in Mid-Atlantic in 78-79. He definitely feels like a much stronger candidate than you might assume on the surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I've always been a Patera guy dude could work and was in the same NWA champion talks as DiBiase at one point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 What TV aired in St. Louis in the mid 80s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 After the WWF took over the KPLR slot at the end of '83, the St. Louis Wrestling Club ran off a three hour block of Central States, AWA, and WCCW TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Do we have much surviving Central States TV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I don't think there is much Central States and most of it is pretty poor. Tying up a few loose ends on Blackwell. A couple of different places claim he worked Amarillo and Houston by I can't find any evidence of it. In 75-76 he was in Mid-Atlantic, including a mid-card tag team with Brute Bernard that seemed to get at least a bit of a push. In early 76 he was also in the WWF where he worked underneath a lot early, but actually moved onto some main events and semi-mains on spot shows. He worked a sort of mini-program v. Putski and actually headlined in some of the mid-level markets. He went on last twice at MSG though both times he was the buffer match after the Bruno main event. He also had a tag title program, a mini-program with Bobo and a mini-program with Kevin Sullivan all of which were placed in second from the top slots even in the big buildings. He even had a match against Monsoon in Pittsburgh in April. Blackwell dropped back into the card some but finished up working with Monsoon/Brazil/Putski around the loop which is a solid mid-card slot. Overall he comes across as a reliable mid-carder that was shuffled up and down the card based on necessity. I am guessing he was in Mid-Atlantic for part of 77 and 78, though I haven't been able to find any results. I know he was in Southeastern for a while in 78/79 as a mid-carder though he did hold the tag titles there twice and worked in some main events. From Sept. of 78 til the end of the year he was in the WWWF (technically his tv debut was in early August, but he didn't work the loop until Sept.) which was an interesting run that I would like to see the tv from. He got an early t.v. main event teaming with Ernie Ladd v. Backlund and Mavia. He mostly worked underneath against your standard scrubs and worked a lot of spot shows. In the last two months of the year he actually main evented several spot shows against guys like S.D. Jones, Larry Zbyszko and Jay Strongbow. His biggest match had to be against Backlund at the Spectrum but we don't have a figure for it. He also main evented against Andre on a few shows in singles and in a tag match in Augusta, Maine of all places. You get the feeling that he might have been being groomed for a bigger run and either got a better offer somewhere else or the company decided to go in a different direction. Hard to tell. The awesome Lawler match from May of 81 in Memphis was only a one shot deal and did a hair over 5,000 which was below average for the year though not the worst drawing show of the year. He was brought into Central States several times starting in 84. He had four main events that year and was clearly booked as a special attraction worth seeing as his bouts were against Flair and Cage Matches v. Harley. In 85/86 he was brought in some and booked all over the card against a wide variety of (mostly middling) talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 How were the tags with Bundy vs the Road Warriors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 The one we have is good and has a shot of making the AWA Set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 The one we have is good and has a shot of making the AWA Set. That is also the only one on film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Bruce Mitchell's ballot: Ivan Koloff The Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto) Kurt & Karl Von Brauner w/Saul Weingeroff Dr. Wagner Jr. Johnny Saint King Curtis Iaukea Mark Lewin Lou Albano Jim Crockett Kent Walton Credit: PWTorch Newsletter He considers Batista a No and Edge a borderline pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 What does he base the Johnny Saint pick on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Work. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Edge is really weird to me. It's like, he's done a lot in wrestling, WWE threw a lot of accolades on him, and he had a pretty lengthy career. According to Wikipedia, he had 31 titles in his 14 year WWE career. Won the Royal Rumble, Money in the Bank & King of the Ring. But he just never felt to me like he was that big of a star, really. He didn't feel like a Steve Austin type main eventer but he was an 11-time world champion. He had some decent matches but I always thought he excelled in gimmick matches where he could rely on props, like ladders. In normal matches, he felt exceptionally bland to me. I don't know anything about his drawing power, but I don't really think anyone in WWE is ever put in a position to draw anymore just based on how WWE markets the brand name not the talent. I don't know, maybe it's just too early, but I think "a borderline pick" kind of sums it up perfectly. I would be perfectly fine with him either making it or not and I think arguments could be make strongly on both sides of the fence. What do you guys think of Edge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Work. John I suspected as much, but did he give any other details or is this a case of "guy works a few matches in States over last few years and becomes HoFer" ala Ultimo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Who can deny the strong style credentials of Johnny Saint? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Am I a fool for thinking I wouldn't vote for the Masked Assassins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 What do you guys think of Edge? Mostly a garbage worker whose best stuff was falling of high places. As a regular worker, he kinda sucked, with an awkward indyrific offense he seemed to have borrowed from Nova. Thought it was a good idea to imitate Goldberg's spear despite looking tall and gangly, hence the shittiest regular spear ever. Was funny with Christian as goofballs, but sucked on promos whenever it was supposed to be serious. Stupid facials... hum... don't care for him very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 I totally agree with El-P on Edge. Isn't weird to think, though, that Edge would, kayfabe-wise, be a strong candidate for best of all time. I mean just looking at how "successful" he was. I mean, looking at the titles, etc that Coffey listed, can anyone touch that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 Am I a fool for thinking I wouldn't vote for the Masked Assassins? Not necessarily, although it's hard to put some masked wrestlers in context. There was a real aura around most of them way-back-when, and that IMO contributed to their drawing power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 Work. John I suspected as much, but did he give any other details or is this a case of "guy works a few matches in States over last few years and becomes HoFer" ala Ultimo It was something along the lines of "one of the greatest workers of all-time and showed it recently in the US". Very short, a sentence or two, all work. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 Yep what jdw said: Johnny Saint: One of the great workers of his era or at least this one, as he proved recently on his visit to the States. I vote yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 What do you guys think of Edge? Mostly a garbage worker whose best stuff was falling of high places. As a regular worker, he kinda sucked, with an awkward indyrific offense he seemed to have borrowed from Nova. Thought it was a good idea to imitate Goldberg's spear despite looking tall and gangly, hence the shittiest regular spear ever. Was funny with Christian as goofballs, but sucked on promos whenever it was supposed to be serious. Stupid facials... hum... don't care for him very much. Ya know, I wasn't sure exactly what the consensus on Edge was going to be, but this is how I feel too. He's probably one of the most overrated wrestlers, at least recently, that I can think of. Literally unless the match is some sort of hardcore and/or ladder match, I don't care at all. Even then, it was mostly just to see the next contrived "holy shit!" spot and see if Edge and his opponent managed to get back up again. He was a good midcard comedy act but outside of that, he was kinda terrible. Not like Great Khali terrible, but I don't think he's Hall of Fame material. I guess I feel like the criteria has to change over the years. Kayfabe accomplishments in a worked business it not a real strong indicator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 Yep what jdw said: Johnny Saint: One of the great workers of his era or at least this one, as he proved recently on his visit to the States. I vote yes. Is this like the ROH Dragon Gate six man that was the greatest match ever? Bruce "I loved watching the guy when I got the chance" Mitchell voting for British and Mexican candidates is quite the joke, which exposes the flaws of the voting system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 I like how it starts with the premise that he was one of the great workers from his era (this is probably true, but there's not a ton of footage from his peak, "one of the great" is not much of a statement on it's surface and it's highly debatable whether or not he's even the best in ring performer from that general time period in his country) and evolves into "or at least this era" which can be read a lot of ways but seems to imply that Bruce has no fucking clue whether or not Saint was really any good in WoS or not. Also I am amused by the notion that Saint's handful of matches on U.S. soil over the last couple of years make him a serious HoF contender. This would be like Phil Schneider or myself arguing that Black Terry should go in because he was the best wrestler in the World in 2010. Actually with Saint it's worse - his value is being judged on four or five matches. There is a lot of 2010 Black Terry easily available. I'm not even sure what the hell to compare this too, though the Ultimo "he did cool shit when he was on tv here and some guys who became wrestlers thought he was cool" standard seems to fit on the surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 but there's not a ton of footage from his peak, "one of the great" is not much of a statement on it's surface and it's highly debatable whether or not he's even the best in ring performer from that general time period in his country) Gotta disagree, even a half assed youtube search can bring up a fairly good chunk of footage on him. Quite a lot from the 70's & 80's with the earliest match i've personally seen of his being 72 or 73. You add in a few scattered 90's matches up until his first retirement in Michinoku in late 96 and his return matches the past few years and count the fact that there's a ton of WoS footage in genral out thear and it's not hard to make a fair judgement both on how good he was individually and how good he was compared to his peers. From what i've seen calling him THEY best would be a stretch but "one of them" isn't pushing things at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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