Referees

[El-P]

There, I remember his name : WADA KYOHEI !!!!

[FLIK]

Great referees :

 

Tommy Ran

Unless you needed her to blade you, yes

 

On that note Nikkan Lee is really good too

 

The one thing I think that Joe Higuchi did have was that the wrestlers did actually listen to him. Yes, they would still get their heat spots by cheating, but many times if Joe actually stepped up to a guy to move him back, the guy would move back. Many times today the wrestlers seem to forget that they have a role in the referees credibility as well.

JOE JOE JOE

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIKIKetVNI4

[Strummer]

who was the old ref the WWF had for years? Dick Kruel or something of that nature?During the 80s boom he looked like he was pushing 75 or so and it was scary trying to watch him keep up in the ring

[NintendoLogic]

Earl Hebner has to be my least favorite referee. After Montreal made him something of a celebrity, he started doing whatever he could to put the focus on himself in matches. By 2001, I found him unbearable. He single-handedly nearly ruined Rock/Austin at Wrestlemania X-7 for me.

[El-P]

Earl Hebner has to be my least favorite referee. After Montreal made him something of a celebrity, he started doing whatever he could to put the focus on himself in matches. By 2001, I found him unbearable.

Word.

[jdw]

On the "bad" side...

 

I never cared for Joe, even his "vintage" stuff in the 70s. Whether I'd rate him as "bad", I don't know. I just don't think he was great, and found him annoying as shit to watch.

 

David Manning sucked. He seemed to think he was a Von Erich, and one of the top babyfaces in the promotion. He just regularly got in the way of stuff in the ring by imposing himself into the match. He also no sold for heels left and right. Just a cocksucker.

 

Bronko sucked as well, as much for his physical nature rather than being an asshole like Manning.

 

Dick Worley in the WWF in Philly was another jerkoff who imposed himself into matches, and no sold for the heels. He had the skills to be a good ref, and often was... but the no selling and putting himself over was annoying.

 

I'm not terribly fond of Hebner, and would be hard pressed to think of anything about Hebner that comes to mind if asked, "What did he do well". If he were the WWF's #3 ref in the salad days, no one would think a thing about him. Fame is the only reason he would come up on a list of great refs because he really didn't do much "value added" to matches in the salad days, and often looked like a fool in there.

 

I really don't like ROH's #1 ref, Todd Sinclair. Part of it is because Modern Wrestling forces all refs to basically be Total Fucking Idiots by ignoring all of the shit that happens right infront of them. But if I'm forced to count up the number of Dumb Ass Referee Things in a card of matches Sinclair does compared to a card of matches say PWG's top ref does, Sinclair rings up far more. It goes beyond the simple "I'm Got To Find Ways To Ignore The 10/20 Count Because These Fucking Wrestlers Won't Come Back In" bullshit that every ref has to deal with because wrestlers these days flat out don't give a fuck. It's all sorts of other stuff Sinclair will do that are stupid.

 

You may think I'm being hard there, but I've been going to wrestling live for a quarter century. I've never lost my voice yelling at a ref for being a constant fuck up...

 

Except for Sinclair.

 

The first ROH show that I went to back east.

 

Then the second.

 

The third ROH show I went to back east, I made a point of not shredding my voice. To the point where late in the show the first time I yelled at one of his fuck up, my girlfriend pointed out to the Torch writer infront of us:

 

"John hates Sinclair."

 

 

In a sense, I feel sorry for modern refs. They really have to look like idiots in there, as modern wrestlers don't give them any excuse for not seeing stuff, and for the most part just do shit right infront of them.

 

John

[jdw]

I would put out Charles Robinson and Brian Hildebrand for quality referees. I could see Brian getting some "blame" for the style of refereeing that is so prevalent now in the selling of big moves. Brian was extremely expressive when he was reffing.

I thought Brian was quite good at it. People tend to over do it in the past 10 years, but Brian was really good at it.

 

I don't think Brian was the as big of a "creator" of it as people think. If you look back at Nick Patrick from the same era, and even before Brian started showing up on TV, you'll see Nick "selling" moves and punches and other things. I'd have to go back and watch WCW stuff again (which I have no desire to do! ) and put some thought on why Brian got more attention from us about it rather than Nick, but it really is something that's right there on the screen with Nick as well... and the last time I was paying attention to it, Nick was doing it even before the heel turn (where he got over the top having fun selling).

 

I think in general, Brian is a good example of what you'd want in a ref. Not saying that he was perfect in there, but he was very good, very attentive to what was going on rather than sleep walking through it, and played his role well. Kind of an Arn Anderson of refs: very good, really solid, a pro. I suspect he could have fit quite well into being a ref in earlier eras in promotions where they didn't care about size.

 

Wada was obviously a guy I loved. Part of it was the era I started watching in, and he defined great ref work for me. I suspect there were NJPW refs who were solid, and frankly did more of a job of "getting out of the way". Wada sold the shit you were watching. Guy knocked goofy and flat on the mat, Wada would check, see that he was fucked up, and get the attention of the opponent who might also be fucked up with that hand wag of:

 

"Hey! Get the fuck over here and cover him!"

 

Great stuff. He had a lot of little touches like that. He'd zone out of focus for stretches, and when it would come his time to add a little accent to the match, he'd deliver it. In a sense, Wada was something of "salt" to those AJPW dishes. The workers were all the great fresh quality ingrediants... but you even watch Top Chef and here the judges say:

 

"Good dish, but did you check for salt? It could have used some."

 

And the chefs smack themselves in the head for fucking up.

 

That was Wada. Just a little extra salt to help draw out the flavors of those great ingrediants.

 

We've seen a shitload of refs who salt and salt and salt and salt.... and that sucks as well.

 

AJW had a really great ref or two. Too a degree they had to do the "I Have To Ignore The Rules Here" simply because that's the way AJW worked in a style that was Indy before Indy. But when things got down to business and they could simply ref, they were quite good.

 

I have a soft spot for Tirantes, though I know a lot of people who hate him. Go to shows live and see some potentially medicore matches get *carried* by Tirantes, and you know that he can be great when needed to be. He of course is a ref who can be over salted in a match, but I tend to think that's far more the Wrestlers/Bookers who are having him do that as opposed to him going off on his own script. But some of the best stuff I've seen is Tirantes simply cleaning the ring of paper cups when a Technico has a Rudo covered by a rather pedestrian spot that would have gotten little heat for a normal count... suddenly has molten heat because Tirantes is fucking over the face.

 

And of course Tommy Young was great.

 

John

[Al]

This is the kind of thing Nick Patrick is great for:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irkQlGfBTYc

That looks ridiculous at first. There's no reason it should work. And damned if the crowd doesn't completely eat it up. Fantastic.

[Al]

who was the old ref the WWF had for years? Dick Kruel or something of that nature?During the 80s boom he looked like he was pushing 75 or so and it was scary trying to watch him keep up in the ring

Dick Woehrle was the older referee. Dick Kroll was probably in his 50s at that point.

[FLIK]

Can't beleive we haven't brought up Ted Tanabe yet, everyone aways loved him.

 

I always kinda dug Pepe Casas too

 

AJW had a really great ref or two.

Yeah, Murayama Daichi & Bob Yazawa were really great. Never liked the older Matsunaga bro that would still ref ocasionally, Jimmy Kayama(?) though.

 

Shiro Abe is right up thear with Tirantes as the greatest heel ref ever, maybe better.

 

Too a degree they had to do the "I Have To Ignore The Rules Here" simply because that's the way AJW worked in a style that was Indy before Indy. But when things got down to business and they could simply ref, they were quite good

Eh, I never saw it as ignoring the rules so much as AJW/joshi in general just has a diffrent set of rules. Much more based on morality and stuff then any set of strict guideless.

[jdw]

I'm willing to bet that if I pop in a complete Aja or Bull or Dump match, we'll see some "I Have To Ignore The Rules Here". Pretty confident I'd see it in Hokuto vs Kandori as well.

 

It's just an accepted part of AJW.

 

John

[rainmakerrtv]

David Manning sucked. He seemed to think he was a Von Erich, and one of the top babyfaces in the promotion. He just regularly got in the way of stuff in the ring by imposing himself into the match. He also no sold for heels left and right. Just a cocksucker.

Classic example is the Flair vs. Kerry cage match. Much of this story is supposed to be guest ref Michael Hayes, but Manning just has to get his face in every chance he gets.

[S.L.L.]

To me, there are two approaches one can take to refereedom, and they're both equally valid.

 

One is the one Loss described. I'd list a few token examples, but I can't think of any offhand, which probably means they were doing their bit well. I guess I can't remember Jerry Calhoun ever being really show-offish, nor can I remember him being incompetent, so there's one.

 

The second is "the referee as character", and this seems to be something that a lot of people don't like. And well, that's their right, certainly, but you look over a thread like this, and you see that most of the guys we can actually think of to name as refs we like fit this category, I wonder if people really dislike it, or if they just say they do because they associate it with refs who do it poorly.

 

And believe me, it's very easy to do poorly. As David Manning's lone defender, I've made the point elsewhere that if every other non-wrestling figure on a wrestling show is allowed to be a character - and, if done well, is rewarded by us for his work - then why not refs? But it's actually not that simple. Unlike every other non-wrestler, they're actually in there with the wrestlers themselves, which means if they're going to be characters, they have to do it without distracting or detracting from the wrestlers themselves. And lord knows a lot of "character refs" fail at this: Slick Johnson and Earl Hebner come to mind as prime offenders, as did the horrifying Billy & Chuck-esque referee from Matrats, who might be the worst example I've ever seen. Tirantes kinda slips in and out of this. I've seen matches where his shtick fits and matches where it doesn't.

 

But that doesn't mean it can't be done. Tommy Young wasn't afraid to get himself over with some big bumps while keeping the focus of the match where it belonged. Nick Patrick was always good to help get an angle over, but also generally came across to me as a lot more alert and competent than your average ref. He always made an impression on me as a character while keeping the focus of the match where it belonged. Pepe Tropicasas knew when to step to the forefront and did it well, but didn't overstay his welcome.

 

Manning...I realize I'm in a minority here, but I never felt like he ever really put himself on par with/over the wrestlers. I felt like he put himself on par with/over every other non-wrestling figure in World Class, and by a large amount at that. But never got the sense he was trying to steal the spotlight in matches. He got larger supporting roles than most referees, to be sure, but they were just that, and I thought he tended to be very good in them. I understand why he's disliked. I can't really think of any other mainstream US ref in the last 30 years quite like him, and that's probably a good thing, as I doubt there are many who could pull it off. I think he pulled it off, though.

[Coffey]

I don't want to crap this thread up, or over-exaggerate and fall victim to hyperbole, but with that being said, Earl Hebner is literally my least favorite referee of all-time.. and no one else is close.

 

A lot of his problems have been mentioned by Loss on the first page, but the thing that absolutely completely kills it for me are his near-falls. I won't point out exactly what it is he does, as once you see it you can't unsee it and it takes you out of the matches completely (like once you notice Bret Hart never closes his mouth while wrestling) but I absolutely loathe the man reffing any match that is supposed to have a lot of drama toward the end. He just kills all the suspense for me.

[Al]

The referee I could never stand is Gilberto Roman. He's the third man for the Andre/Hogan Shea Stadium match, among others.

[Bob Morris]

Dave Hebner was far better than Earl. He did a better job of getting over his counts being just a bit slower than usual after taking a bump, whereas Earl would overdo it with the crawling and slow counts. Earl took less exaggerated bumps than Dave, though.

 

I always though Joey Marella was good at working main events. He generally kept his counts consistent and didn't try to make it look like an epic moment. I think the Bret Hart/Davey Boy match from SummerSlam 92 is one where Marella really does some of his best work.

 

But yeah, Tommy Young was one of the best, and Nick Patrick was always entertaining.

[flyonthewall2983]

I was going through some YouTube stuff today and saw Terry Taylor in a ref's shirt in a video from Halloween Havoc '93. Was he just a ref during this stint in WCW or did he do it other times as well?

[rainmakerrtv]

I was going through some YouTube stuff today and saw Terry Taylor in a ref's shirt in a video from Halloween Havoc '93. Was he just a ref during this stint in WCW or did he do it other times as well?

He was special referee for one match.

[MikeCampbell]

I don't know his name, but the obnoxious ref from the WWF "Big Event" show in Toronto in '86, who reffed Hogan/Orndorff is probably my least favorite. He spent the whole match getting Paul's face and yelling over and over again that HE was the official.

 

The ECW refs were usually pretty bad too. I remember Jim Molineux slapping one of the Dudleys and then trying to double lariat them. John Finnegan was way out of position for a pin in one ECW PPV. Cyrus fired off a good line, saying that he needed to get on the treadmill.

[Ronnie]

Earl Hebner has to be my least favorite referee. After Montreal made him something of a celebrity, he started doing whatever he could to put the focus on himself in matches.

And it wasn't only limited to the post-Montreal period, including a spot (admittedly comedy) where he shoots Austin the bird and audibly yells "Fuck you!" to him without receiving any comeuppance.

[soup23]

Finishing up the All Japan set, I have to say that Joe Higuchi annoyed me throughout and I was happy when Wada took over as the lead ref in the big matches in 1988-1989. I think what John said was very appropriate in why I think Wada was such a good ref. He certainly wasn't someone who you never noticied but he never took away from the match to get himself over and did everything logical to where he added to the overall match. Heel spot aside, Tommy Young also did this in matches. JOe throughout the All Japan set would seemingly randomnly decide at times to not count falls and enforce rules that had been forgotten throughout the match.

[med2089]

I absolutely can not stand the way Scott Armstrong telegraphs a near-fall. There's never any drama, which is funny, because that's what he's trying to create.

[Chess Knight]

Earl Hebner annoys me to no end. His two counts are absolutely awful and you can almost nwo that the wrestler will kick just because Earl changes body position every time. I love watching him getting wiped out at SummerSlam 95 by Mabel.

 

Was watching some 96 BattlARTS recently, and the ref there has this habit of yelling "GIVE UP, GIVE UP, ESCAPE, ESCAPE, GIVE UP" whenever someone's in a submission move. He's likely told to do that, to ask them if they give up, but I'd rather he'd not yell and scream single words.

 

I honestly can't say there's any referees I truly like. The best ones are the ones I'd take no notice of.

[FLIK]

Wally Yamaguchi in Gran Hamada's UWF from early 90's is up thear with the worst refs ever i've decided. Gets in the way, ruins the flow of matches, screws up finishes and plays way too fast & loose when it comes to when he will and won't enforce the rules with the worst example being not allowing a tag that takes place right in front of him and then allowing like 2 straight mins of 2 on 1 beat down from the other team.

[khawk20]

Gary DeRusha, the AWA's referee of note in the last few years, was really loud on all of his rope counts and pinfall counts, and his break the hold counts...to the point of "holy fuck, shut UP already".

 

Ruined a ton of matches for me, almost as many as Lee Marshall's commentary did.