Bix Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Jesus Christ, enough about the stupid fucking STF already. It looks fine. How can it look fine when he doesn't even apply a facelock? He wraps his arms around the guy's face and pulls. Boom, facelock. And no, the FU/AA isn't supposed to be a Death Valley Driver. It's a fireman's carry powerslam. The powerslam is a legitimate finisher in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 He wraps his arms around the guy's face and pulls. I think the problem is that he doesn't pull, actually, but whatever it doesn't matter. He also takes a Rock Bottom on his ass, which physically I don't even see how that's possible but it seems like it would definitely make it hurt more. Cena is definitely not the most crisp in his execution of stuff, which is where I think the "you can't wrestle" stuff comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Wrestling is fake. What does it matter if he really pulls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 He wraps his arms around the guy's face and pulls. I think the problem is that he doesn't pull, actually, but whatever it doesn't matter. He also takes a Rock Bottom on his ass, which physically I don't even see how that's possible but it seems like it would definitely make it hurt more. Cena is definitely not the most crisp in his execution of stuff, which is where I think the "you can't wrestle" stuff comes from. I fail to see how Cena is pulling any less than Chono. Or Erik Watts. Wrestling is fake. What does it matter if he really pulls?That too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Wrestling is fake. What does it matter if he really pulls?It doesn't. I actually think he's really good. But the "you can't wrestle" chants came from somewhere. And regardless of if wrestling is fake or not, you're still trying to sell the illusion. People don't buy tickets to be reminded 24/7 that it's "fake." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Wrestling is fake. What does it matter if he really pulls? It doesn't. I actually think he's really good. But the "you can't wrestle" chants came from somewhere. Angle and Jericho working matches specifically to undermine him as well as the Triple H Wrestlemania feud that was built around promos where Triple H said "You aren't actually a good wrestler" and Cena agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueminister Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Even without those factors Cena is still an awkward-moving dude. Awkward in general, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 As far as The Miz is concerned, Cena KILLED him. That dude is done. The PPV where it was basically a 2-vs-1 Handicap hardcore match where Cena was beatdown for 20 minutes by both Alex Riley AND The Miz only for him to no-sell it all, slap on his lazy STF and have The Miz tap out instantly? The Miz, from going to winning in the Main Event of Wrestlemania last year to barely making the card this year? That's pretty much the exact opposite of what I'm looking for. Cena has killed that dude. And no one took him seriously going into his 'Mania match either because Cena just dismisses anything anyone ever says and smiles, the same shit he's been doing to The Rock the whole time. Cena's idea of being "serious" is reverting back into white rapper mode and throwing out gay jokes...Miz killed himself more than anything. He improved pretty consistently from the time he was teaming with John Morrison until he won the title, and then he started getting progressively worse after he got the title (well before the Cena feud, actually). He has nobody to blame but himself for barely making the Wrestlemania card this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 I think it'd only matter relative to someone else doing it better. For instance, Rock's Sharpshooter is only a problem if someone is around doing it better or if people can REMEMBER someone doing it better.. Past that, it's all in how the audience is trained and that has more to do with selling (both from opponents and announcers) not execution. Considering that Nattie does a positively brutal sharpshooter (given the flexibility of a lot of the divas), maybe it's a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Cena basically feuded with guys who were already made but I think he had a big hand in making Sheamus & Wade Barrett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Which therefore means you would take the stance that both Sheamus & Wade Barrett are made, right? Because I can't get on board with that. Even with Sheamus winning the Royal Rumble this year and having a World Heavyweight Championship match at Wrestlemania, he seems like an afterthought. Wade Barrett, it's tough to say because he got hurt, really. I guess he might have been on his way, but he certainly, in my opinion, wasn't on the cusp. It just feels like Cena is leaps and bounds above pretty much everyone, sans maybe C.M. Punk. Everyone else is just sort of there. I can't really buy that at least some of that doesn't fall onto Cena himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 I fail to see how Cena is pulling any less than Chono. Well, with those links, I can't see the difference either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 I think it'd only matter relative to someone else doing it better. For instance, Rock's Sharpshooter is only a problem if someone is around doing it better or if people can REMEMBER someone doing it better.. Past that, it's all in how the audience is trained and that has more to do with selling (both from opponents and announcers) not execution. Well, that too, although it is a problem when you had Bret Hart executing a terrific looking sharpshooter on WWF TV for the past 6 years when Rock did it. The Rock sharpshooter does look like crap anyway you slice it. But then, what you said is true, once the audience is trained to accept it as it is, and if it works, well. See also : Tenryu's enzuigiri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Funny you brought that up. Bret recently said on Twitter he wouldn't mind giving Rock a few lessons on how to apply it properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Austin made Rock, even while "winning" the feud. I'd say Rock pretty much made himself before the two feuded. Austin & Rock made Foley. If anyone made Foley, it was Undertaker. Vince, Rock & Foley made Trip. It was mostly Vince and Foley, neither of whom were aces. Still, overall point taken. It'd be more accurate to say that aces generally don't make people in the WWF/E model. He wraps his arms around the guy's face and pulls. Boom, facelock. Actually, most of the time, he wraps his arms under the guy's chin. And you don't even have to look to Chono. Compare to the . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 In an odd way I think Triple H made Sheamus. He let Sheamus take him out for nearly a year. After he came back, he did have the segment where he destroyed Sheamus but that was a long period of time in between action and retaliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Sheamus got the fluke champion treatment like every new "up and coming" heel champion of recent vintage Since Cena's been a top guy the only people I'd feel fair about saying he elevated are Edge and Punk. He's dragged down and killed Jericho's momentum a few times. The programs with Orton and Batista were great and they were both portrayed as being at his level more or less, but they were established main eventers already, and he barely lost clean to either of them. Punk is the only guy who's gone over him in a remotely clean fashion, and it's not a coincidence that Punk is now established as a top guy after that. I have no issues with protecting your top guy like that, but in the 6-7 years he's been a main eventer it's a little strange that he hasn't been used to elevate a few more guys. That's WWE booking though, once they have someone who's over like Cena they ride them into the ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Everyone knows that Dustin made Sheamus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 From DVDVR: Estimate a number for me of how many wrestlers can credibly be described as "one of the biggest wrestlers in the history of the business". Let's keep it limited to wrestlers who had a significant run in the US. This seems like something that would degenerate into a 40 page thread over at PWO. Shall we have at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 What's Robert's deal with this place. Seems to have a real chip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 From DVDVR: Estimate a number for me of how many wrestlers can credibly be described as "one of the biggest wrestlers in the history of the business". Let's keep it limited to wrestlers who had a significant run in the US. This seems like something that would degenerate into a 40 page thread over at PWO. Shall we have at it? Easy... one... El Santo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 An angry young man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Cena is a guy they've done an epically shitty job establishing as top guy in the first place, to the extent that you could legitimately question how much they even have tried. That they've failed to establish anyone else at or near his level save maybe Punk should neither be surprising, nor should it reflect poorly on anything Cena has done. Might as well throw Great Khali - a real nothing of a wrestler who popped a buyrate opposite Cena and seemed to come out of their feud with a better grasp of how to work around his limitations - as a guy who benefited from working with Cena. I think it's telling that practically everyone who works with Cena benefits from it while they're working with him, but it often doesn't stick when it's over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Going through some 1997 footage and Nick Patrick was the FUCKING MAN. Great heel, GREAT promo, really strong pro wrestling sensibilities. This guy was awesome. I don't think he's one of the better straight referees, but when you need a ref who can work an angle, I don't think anyone is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Nick was a good color guy as well for Deep South in 1987-88. Being the son of Jody Hamilton aka The Assassin should make you a great heel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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