Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 3

[cm funk]

The whole thing was Russo to a T though, some good ideas, good ideas of how to work with talent, how to write episodic TV, but lacking simple understanding in wrestling basics.

This is wrong. What Russo lacks is understanding of the basic fundamentals of narrative. It's not because he isn't especially a wrestling fan, he just has no grasp of how stories on the whole are supposed to function or why. He is a man who has never thought about, say, a movie or a book in a structural sense because he thinks the spectacle is the draw and that spectacle is something that occurs naturally when you shake up the bag of marbles often enough -- and therefore something he is capable of creating (as opposed to the reality that he was a mere lucky witness when Rock, Austin, and Foley got their moment to shine.)

 

No, I think you missed my point.

 

He has some good ideas, he has some good ideas about writing episodic TV and doing things to make the viewer want to come back the next week, he demonstrated on the shoot the right mindset of scripting more or less depending on the talent, playing to a talent's strengths etc. (and lots of talent in WWF, WCW and TNA liked working with him), he even decried "video game style" wrestling (which by booking 4 minute matches he's been part of the problem for a long time, but he isn't the most self aware guy....). He also has some mind-fuckingly awful ideas and theories that manage to cancel out whatever good ones he has. He understands the fundamentals of narrative, I just think he thinks "it's all been done before, it's boring, I'm hip and modern, I can do it better!"

 

It's like he thinks he's the Quentin Tarantino of pro-wrestling or something.......and he's just not that introspective or talented

[Strummer]

He mentioned how WWF TV was so boring when he was a kid, and that no one cared about the endless squash matches. But the angle was the big deal and where his interest piqued. This explained so much about him. He obviously thought two hours with a steady stream of big angles was the way to go. I think it's also telling that his hatred of in-ring wrestling comes from growing up on WWF squashes and being bored to tears. He hates wrestling matches because he hasn't them done well too many times.

 

I don't know if it's the same shoot (he's done several) but I think the "constant conflict" is also an underlying theme in his beliefs. You can tell he believes that all wrestlers should be at each other's throats all the time. Or quite simply the definition of drama is constant conflict. I think it was Jingus who noted how mean wrestlers were to each other during Russo's reign and I think this belief is at the core of that.

 

 

and interesting to note that him growing up on a territory that wasn't workrate centric shaped his beliefs years later. Mick Foley grew up in the same general area and time (early mid 70s) and noted how tough it was to sit through all those squash matches but that the angles stuck out more to him due to them happening less frequently. Foley probably also paid attention to other territories while Russo did not

[blueminister]

He has some good ideas, he has some good ideas about writing episodic TV and doing things to make the viewer want to come back the next week, he demonstrated on the shoot

When has he -- when actually booking and not just working an interviewer -- demonstrated any of this? What about his WCW or TNA tenure would make you say "this is a man with good ideas about writing episodic tv?" When has he demonstrated any sustained ability to make anybody come back the next week except out of morbid curiosity? You (and to be fair, a lot of people who should know better like Meltzer) keep trying to sell the idea that this is a clever creative mind that just doesn't translate to the wrestling booking context, where's the evidence of that? Wrestling is the only community dumb enough to give Russo creative control multiple times. He would be dismissed, rightly, as a cheap con anywhere else.

[Bix]

I wonder if Russo watched the Florida shows that aired in NY when he was a kid. Because Vince Sr. & Eddie Graham were so close, they worked out a deal where WNJU (a Spanish channel on UHF that had a very strong signal), would air CWF TV in English with the local WWF MSG promos in the slot where the local Florida promos would be. It was popular enough that Dusty Rhodes was already super over when he came into the territory.

 

Anyway, Florida TV had much better in-ring wrestling, even in squashes, was, while not anything like Memphis, still much more of a constantly moving territory. Did Russo watch it? Did he like it more than the WWWF? Did he appreciate the better in-ring wrestling? Did the more regularly occurring angles appeal to him? Probably doesn't make a huge difference because WWWF was still the home territory, just something that this discussion has made me wonder about.

 

But either way, yes, Loss is right, this completely explains Russo's mindset about wrestling. He was watching the biggest and best city's wrestling in what was legitimately the most successful promotion in the country. "The in-ring wrestling sucks, but the interviews and occasional (as in one every few months at the most) angles are awesome. Thus, if this is the biggest and best, clearly the way to improve pro wrestling is to cut down on the amount of in-ring wrestling and dramatically increase the frequency of angles."

[Coffey]

The Godfather is one the greatest movies of all-time & expecting anyone in professional wrestling, Vince Russo or otherwise, to even come close to being able to tell a story that well is ridiculous. If they were that great of a writer, they would not be in wrestling in the first place. So I think expectations are either too high or that was a terrible example to use. Although I know I'm reading into it more than the point that was being made, and I do get the overall point, I just think using the Godfather was silly.

 

Here's a question: what are the greatest stories ever told in wrestling? If we're trying to talk about what great is as it pertains to wrestling, let us first define where the bar is at. Because even all the best stories I can think of had stupid and silly parts to them.

[blueminister]

The Godfather is one the greatest movies of all-time & expecting anyone in professional wrestling, Vince Russo or otherwise, to even come close to being able to tell a story that well is ridiculous.

That would indeed be ridiculous if anybody were doing that, yes.

[Coffey]

That would indeed be ridiculous if anybody were doing that, yes.

Although I know I'm reading into it more than the point that was being made, and I do get the overall point

[FLIK]

I think we need to stress that "Doc" is Steve Williams at this point.

What other Docs would we confuse him for? Hendrix?

[Dylan Waco]

Are you forgetting the great Worldwide superstar Doc Dean?

[flyonthewall2983]

I think we need to stress that "Doc" is Steve Williams at this point.

What other Docs would we confuse him for? Hendrix?

 

Was a nod to all the Back To The Future references on the previous page.

[ohtani's jacket]

Who booked the TV from the Tyson angle to SummerSlam '98? I guess we'll see how it holds up on the yearbook, but it was enjoyable at the time.

[artDDP]

Who booked the TV from the Tyson angle to SummerSlam '98? I guess we'll see how it holds up on the yearbook, but it was enjoyable at the time.

I think there was still something of a committee at that point. I remember the storylines having a sense of being tied together and each character sort of intertwining. There were even lengthy TV matches back then.

 

After SummerSlam did a big buy rate the show went downhill rapidly and became "crash TV".

[Victator]

I thought the TV remained good in the buildup to and aftermath of the Title Tourney. Early 99 is when cracks started appearing in the booking. The Mark Henry/Chyna/transvestite stuff being a big one.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with Crash TV, most wrestling is Crash TV on some level. The thing is if it is done well. Done in a way you want to keep following it.

[jdw]

The Godfather is one the greatest movies of all-time & expecting anyone in professional wrestling, Vince Russo or otherwise, to even come close to being able to tell a story that well is ridiculous. If they were that great of a writer, they would not be in wrestling in the first place. So I think expectations are either too high or that was a terrible example to use. Although I know I'm reading into it more than the point that was being made, and I do get the overall point, I just think using the Godfather was silly.

 

My point was to agree with the earlier poster that Russo is actually shit in storytelling by pointing to a movie most famous for its High Spots that actually has excellent story structure underneath those High Spots. Russo would only see the High Spots, and want to replicate them. He wouldn't see the storyline nor the structure.

 

As far as choosing Godfather, it's not about using it to set a bar for Pro Wrestling. It's because it's famous and can be used as an example. It's so famous that even though I didn't use the High Spots, the scenes / quotes that I referenced are actually ones that a viewer of the movie would remember if I cited them. In turn, calling it a movie with big High Spots also would be something that people get.

 

John

[Gregor]

Early 99 is when cracks started appearing in the booking. The Mark Henry/Chyna/transvestite stuff being a big one.

I actually liked that angle at first. Henry's date with Chyna is my favorite wrestling skit of all time, as long as you count the parts with D'Lo.

[sek69]

I thought the TV remained good in the buildup to and aftermath of the Title Tourney. Early 99 is when cracks started appearing in the booking. The Mark Henry/Chyna/transvestite stuff being a big one.

WWE On Demand's History of RAW show is right at the build up for Survivor Series and the title tourney now. The angles are still strong, but you can already see the trends of what was to come starting to show. Every week is full of non finishes, and when they were building the "Kane and Taker are pissed at Vince" angle there was a while show of non finishes.

 

What's amazing is if I'm remembering the time frame correctly (which can be hard in this era), the tournament leads into Mankind winning the title a few months later in the "that'll put asses in the seats" match. It's amazing that the tippling point of the Monday Night Wars happened right when Raw started to get comically bad. I guess it speaks volumes to what WCW was offering that they couldn't beat them again.

[Victator]

I still mostly like the TV from that period. I thought the main event booking was strong.

 

There are some things I don't care for, but I think the good outweighs the bad.

 

The first huge crack (as main events go) is Shane McMahon's first big promo. Nobody gave a shit about Shane, but being near Vince and Austin gave the illusion people cared about the McMahon family.

 

Fast forward to late 99 and you can see the beginnings of the things that are now major problems in WWE today. Like D'Lo Brown's push being abandoned after being pushed for six months.

 

Which is just flushing money away. I don't mean in money to be made. But money wasted in pushing someone and never using them. Its not noticeable in 99, since they had so many over acts. Its when you follow that line of thinking to today.

[Cox]

Well to be fair, D'Lo's push probably had more to do with the match with Droz than anything else.

[Victator]

That is what I would have thought. But word always was, they did not like his attitude about dropping the Euro belt to Bulldog.

[sek69]

Shane's first big promo was so bad. Not in the delivery or anything he did wrong, but it made him come off as a spoiled whiny bitch. "I was never good enough for you, dad!" kind of loses it's zip when the guy saying it was portrayed as someone who had enough pull in the company to hire Austin back over Vince's head.

[Strummer]

D-Lo's push also stalled because Russo left. Russo was his biggest supporter. The Russo "guys" were D-Lo, Jarrett, Gangrel and Val Venis. Jarrett obviously left and Val was the only one who got a decent push (and that's a stretch) after Russo's departure. Gangrel actually had a TV match with the Rock in summer of 99

[Victator]

Matt Hardy mentioned that match. That management lost faith in Gangrel because he choked on the mic.

[cm funk]

Just to be clear, I'm not defending Russo's booking or his personality and I don't want to be misconstrued like that. Russo's WCW turned me off that product completely within months, as did his booking in TNA.......I hate Russo booked/written wrestling. But I don't think it's outlandish at all to say that in a confined, structured environment he can bring some things to the table.

 

His biggest problem seems to be overinflated ego. He thinks he's a lot smarter and more talented than he actually is, and since he "got the pen" he refuses to take a step backwards from that. As he says in the shoot, his least favorite thing about working in wrestling is being micro-managed, and he refuses to watch any wrestling that he hasn't written. That sort of mentality helped him get where he got, and also led to where he got being complete shit most of the time.

[El-P]

I watched that Guest Booker interview. Yes, Russo's idea of how it could have been booked is better and more exciting on paper than Cornette's, but you can see he only has a general, vague idea of the framework and has zero notions of how to make it work in details. Plus he shows his colors when he says "I don't care if they are heels of babyface, I only care about people watching", which means he still doesn't understand the basics at all (well, that actually appears the very first minute when he talks about the difference between a "booker" and a "writer"). Of course it matters because the entire structure of the product is based on who works with who and the dynamics between characters, and you don't book (or write) the same stuff if the characters are heels of babyface. Anyway, he does seem like a nice enough guy, and he seems to understand a lot of what doesn't work with todays' product (no strong characters, oversaturation), but there's so much bullshit coming out of his mouth it's not even funny. I gotta love him saying every two minutes that everything comes down to *logic*. Holy shit, coming from him that's a riot. I would still take his basic idea for the WCW/nWo invasion over Cornette's to be honest, but I would need someone to actually put it down and lay out the details and execution. You can feel Sean's frustration at times when he would be given answers like "I don't care if they are heels of faces", but Vince is indeed a rather charming individual so I get how he could get by for so long.

[KrisZ]

Russo is one of those guys who is a good guy to have around to bounce ideas but as the main guy in charge he was way in over his head. There have been many bookers like that over the years and writers in general on TV.