Mania as it happens.

[El-P]

Don't get the ppl who thought it was dumb for Cena to lose as well. The Rock's coming back for more shows, this wasn't the blow off of the story it was the start or atleast first big peak. Even tho half or more of the crowd hates him, Cena's still the #1 good guy and the #1 good guy doesn't need to win until the end.

I sure hope Rock is not coming back for another match against Cena, because it didn't feel like a feud that would need to keep on. I don't think it felt *that* special to be honest, and the fact that it was in Miami made it better than it was. It was the right spot, the right time. Another match would not work that well, especially now that we've already seen everything that there is to see. And I don't see the big deal of Cena losing. People bought the PPV to see the Rock. People in the stadium came to see the Rock. WWE sent people home very happy, I think that's more important than anything else. Is John Cena really hurt right now ? I don't think he is hurt one bit. It was a big match, a big moment, the audience got what they paid for, that's a big positive. Cena's profile won't change because he did a job to the Rock at Mania in Miami. I just wished they had the balls to have Cena go heelish on Rock, that would have been fresh and really awesome to watch in this setting.

[El-P]

Yes, it does. Vince's logic in this show was supposedly that people would buy the show for the older stars, but see something that impressed them on the show with the younger guys, and then that would motivate them to follow WWE again. So Bryan/Sheamus getting 18 seconds seems to work against that goal.

That's exactly my case. I was interested in the show because of the Rock. I like CM Punk, from the few I've seen of him, as I'm not at all an old follower from his indy days. Ditto for Daniel Bryan, who I know only from rep, but I have seen zero matches from his indy days. So I was interested in watching his match with Sheamus. Needless to say, that was a huge fail. But they needed the time for a useless women's match, Flo-rida, Puff Daddy and his lame protegé, whoever those guys are, and a stupid segment with the Funkasaurus, who's already overstayed its welcome to me.

On a side note, Edge was visibly very moved by the fact he was put over much more than the 4 Horsemen and Mike Tyson. When his music hit he looked like "Holy shit, they just went through the Horsemen and Tyson, and it's *my* turn now ?". Arn Anderson looks like a grandpa. I wonder how Barry is doing. JJ Dillon has aged a lot less than all the others. Love how they showed the less of Flair possible.

[El-P]

What was really telling for me was that in the initial graphics, Punk vs Jerciho wasn't involved at all. It was just HITC and Cena/Rock.

Yep. I immediately thought, "hum, world titles mean jackshit."

[ohtani's jacket]

Yes, it does. Vince's logic in this show was supposedly that people would buy the show for the older stars, but see something that impressed them on the show with the younger guys, and then that would motivate them to follow WWE again. So Bryan/Sheamus getting 18 seconds seems to work against that goal.

 

So let's say they ran an angle where Sheamus shaved the Undertaker bald and challenged his streak? Even if he lost the match at Mania, if he got in the right amount of offense and the match was worked the right way, it wouldn't matter. The last boom was created by sacrificing a lot of the sacred cows and getting ballsy, which I don't see happening now at all.

I guess if Vince was on the bones of his ass he'd have to take risks.

 

It's kind of funny when you look at the Wrestlemania XIV card considering how much of a game changer it seemed at the time, but there have been some unbelievably shitty Wrestlemanias during boom periods. In fact, Wrestlemania is like the Oscars: you know it's going to be crap, but you watch it anyway because you want to see who wins.

 

Somewhere along the way when they started building up the WWE brand, Wrestlemania became the biggest stage of them all where all these legendary matches take place and now there's an expectation that every year you're going to see something showstopping. I mean there was always the hope that maybe something great would happen at Wrestlemania, but now they actively try to make each and every Wrestlemania memorable. So I guess the question is would Sheamus v. Undertaker deliver on that even if it was a great match? I read the thread over at DVDVR and this is nothing against Brian Fowler, but would he think Sheamus v. Undertaker was some of the greatest storytelling in the history of the business? Because ultimately that's what people want from Wrestlemania when they plonk down their money. It seems like a bit of a juggling match to me. You could probably argue that it's a double mainevent one match should be used to elevate a new guy, but this whole Undertaker has a great match at Wrestlemania thing has taken on a life of its own in the past few years. I guess they're just milking it dry.

[kjh]

Yes, it does. Vince's logic in this show was supposedly that people would buy the show for the older stars, but see something that impressed them on the show with the younger guys, and then that would motivate them to follow WWE again. So Bryan/Sheamus getting 18 seconds seems to work against that goal.

 

So let's say they ran an angle where Sheamus shaved the Undertaker bald and challenged his streak? Even if he lost the match at Mania, if he got in the right amount of offense and the match was worked the right way, it wouldn't matter. The last boom was created by sacrificing a lot of the sacred cows and getting ballsy, which I don't see happening now at all.

I think there's an argument that Sheamus squashing Bryan in 18 seconds works better than just giving them 6-12 minutes to have a basic back and forth match that wouldn't be memorable after the monster epics that followed it. I mean this was closer to Diesel vs. Backlund than Bruno vs. Rogers or Warrior vs. Honky Tonk Man, but putting over the new champion quickly over the hated heel champion is a tried and true WWE booking formula, and most fans in the arena did pop big for it.

 

Really most of the WWF sacred cows in the mid 90s were only sacrificed because they jumped ship to WCW (Hall and Nash), were being pushed out to save cash (Bret) or suffered career threatening injuries (Shawn), freeing space at the top of the card for Austin, Foley, Rock and Hunter to break through. Now, you need guys to voluntarily fall on their sword to create a new guy and it's not surprising that they rather opt to put over established stars that are their longtime friends, which also guarantees a higher spot on the WrestleMania card and being able to hold onto it for longer (Flair over Shawn, Taker over Shawn and Hunter for the last four years).

[Cox]

Some of my thoughts about last night's show.

 

-I'm of two minds of the opener. On one hand, Sheamus and Bryan could have had a good-to-great 10-15 minute match, so it's disappointing that they didn't get to go out and have that match, as that definitely would have helped a show that was lacking in good matches. On the other hand, if the idea is to make Sheamus the next top babyface on Smackdown (which appears to be the plan, as they protected him from doing a job at Survivor Series, they put him over in the Royal Rumble in surprising fashion, and then they put him over so strongly here), then this was probably the way to go. Sad as it is to say, no matter how great Daniel Bryan was as the heel Smackdown champion, he was getting shuffled down to the midcard after Wrestlemania anyway, so might as well have him put over Sheamus strongly on his way down. But like I said, this was a show that REALLY could have used another strong match, so for last night's show, it was a definite minus.

 

-I honestly can't remember a single thing about Kane/Randy Orton or Cody Rhodes/Big Show the next day, which probably sums both of these matches up pretty well. As Loss said, Orton desperately needs a heel turn, and I suspect we're going to get that sooner rather than later with Sheamus seemingly bumping Orton down to the #2 babyface on Smackdown. I was hoping Rhodes/Big Show would be better, as I'm a Big Show fan and I have the (perhaps misguided) hope that Cody Rhodes will one day become a guy that I like watching based solely on bloodlines, but it was pretty much a nothing match.

 

-The woman's match was the woman's match - too long and not at all good. What does it say about Kelly Kelly when the non-wrestling celebrity with a rib injury is booked to take the heat, the hot tag, and the finish?

 

-HHH/Undertaker was the self-indulgent epic that I think most people were expecting coming in. The overwrought acting stuff was a bit much, but that seems to be the story of the annual Wrestlemania Self Indulgent Epic match dating back to Michaels/Flair a few years ago. What I don't get about all of that stuff, though, is that it can't play to the last row of a freaking stadium show. I know that current WWE is more about playing to the cameras than playing to the live crowd, but isn't there a domino effect that if something can play to the back row of a stadium show, it should definitely play to a live viewer watching at home too? Anyway, I can't say that I hated this match, even though it was way too melodramatic, but it's not a match I'll ever want to watch again either, like most Wrestlemania Self Indulgent Epics.

 

-The twelve man tag was OK. Good on all of these guys for getting Wrestlemania payoffs. That said, it sure feels like they're killing Zach Ryder dead with horrible booking since he won the US title from Ziggler. And speaking of Ziggler, he's been spinning his wheels since seemingly being ready to take it up to the next level work-wise at the end of last year. I guess you can say that about a lot of folks here, though.

 

-Punk/Jericho was my match of the night, and probably something I would enjoy more on a repeated viewing. As much as I love throwing my annual Wrestlemania party (and if I have anything to say about it, next year's Wrestlemania party will be thrown in the parking lot at MetLife Stadium rather than my basement), it's not always conductive for getting to seriously watch a wrestling match. I suspect this will hold up better for me on a second or third viewing.

 

-Main event pretty much delivered. I'd say easily the second best match of the show, and a lot better than I thought it would be going in, as I did not have high hopes for Rock working a long singles main event after such a long layoff. Good on him for coming in here after such a long layoff and delivering a big epic Wrestlemania main event. This is the match Undertaker and HHH wanted to have but didn't, and they even had the advantages of blood, gimmicks, the cage, etc, only some of which they chose to use but still.

 

Overall, my experience is that even when Wrestlemanias aren't great (and it doesn't appear this will go down as one of the best), having a Wrestlemania party pretty much guarantees that the show will come off better than it would have if I had watched it by myself, so I can't complain about my own personal Wrestlemania experience, even if it wasn't a great show. I can say pretty safely that, warts and all, I'd rather watch any of the eight matches on this show (plus the preshow spotfest match) than Davey Richards vs. Michael Elgin, so I guess they have that going for them!

[El-P]

What I don't get about all of that stuff, though, is that it can't play to the last row of a freaking stadium show.

That's a great point and that's why I disagree about whoever said it was like a Tokyo Dome show main event. Not at all. Great Tokyo Dome spectacle are Tenryu and Choshu beating the shit out of each others with lariat and chops. It's Hashimoto and Takada trading kicks. It's Inoki getting suplexed out of his boots by Vader. It's simple, high impact stuff that can register up to the last rows.

People in the stadium didn't get to hear Shawn's bad acting, they probably only saw Hunter blabbing with Shawn after a hundred chair shots and wondering why.

[Loss]

I said that about Rock/Cena, not HHH/Undertaker. HHH/Undertaker was the wrestling version of Twilight. I say that and there were spots that I thought worked when watching live. But when it was all over, all I could think was that these are three guys that need to get over themselves.

[El-P]

I said that about Rock/Cena, not HHH/Undertaker.

Sorry, got confused. Yeah, Rock vs Cena is a Tokyo Dome show match, except too long and drawn out. Cut off 5 to 10 minutes and a few kick out of finishers, and it would have been more fun to me. It went too long, and Rock was gasping at the end.

 

HHH/Undertaker was the wrestling version of Twilight.

[Ditch]

Was Rock-Hogan in a dome because I could only imagine the sound if it didn't disappear into the sky. If Rock-Hogan was an open arena then that would be a hell of an accomplishment.

The Skydome was closed. And it was quite the live experience.

[Matt D]

I was perfectly okay with HHH/Taker right up until the moment where they started walking out and I realized that the Brock/Batista Power Warriors tandem weren't about to run out and destroy all three of them.

[Slasher]

I was not clear of the stipulation but was this essentially Triple H's retirement match? It seemed like when he crotch chopped out of desperate sign of defiance, it was saying he was accepting his end... am I wrong on reading that in his actions?

[Loss]

I think the "End of an Era" billing was a really selfish way of promoting this match as one involving key guys from a time period when wrestling didn't suck.

[Loss]

Yes, it does. Vince's logic in this show was supposedly that people would buy the show for the older stars, but see something that impressed them on the show with the younger guys, and then that would motivate them to follow WWE again. So Bryan/Sheamus getting 18 seconds seems to work against that goal.

 

So let's say they ran an angle where Sheamus shaved the Undertaker bald and challenged his streak? Even if he lost the match at Mania, if he got in the right amount of offense and the match was worked the right way, it wouldn't matter. The last boom was created by sacrificing a lot of the sacred cows and getting ballsy, which I don't see happening now at all.

I guess if Vince was on the bones of his ass he'd have to take risks.

Sure. But he took more risks during the middle of the boom period than he does now.

 

It's kind of funny when you look at the Wrestlemania XIV card considering how much of a game changer it seemed at the time, but there have been some unbelievably shitty Wrestlemanias during boom periods. In fact, Wrestlemania is like the Oscars: you know it's going to be crap, but you watch it anyway because you want to see who wins.

 

Somewhere along the way when they started building up the WWE brand, Wrestlemania became the biggest stage of them all where all these legendary matches take place and now there's an expectation that every year you're going to see something showstopping. I mean there was always the hope that maybe something great would happen at Wrestlemania, but now they actively try to make each and every Wrestlemania memorable. So I guess the question is would Sheamus v. Undertaker deliver on that even if it was a great match?

If Sheamus didn't do jobs for six months, shaved Undertaker's head, they had him shaving other guys heads who would take a payoff to let him do it and he was about to do the same to -- say -- Michelle McCool when Undertaker finally had enough and made the save, yes, I think Sheamus would be red hot and that match would deliver.

 

I read the thread over at DVDVR and this is nothing against Brian Fowler, but would he think Sheamus v. Undertaker was some of the greatest storytelling in the history of the business? Because ultimately that's what people want from Wrestlemania when they plonk down their money.

Sure. I'm not a fan of that type of match, but it has a place. The point is that Undertaker probably isn't capable of doing this too many more times. Neither is HHH. So who's going to start delivering that match each year?

 

It seems like a bit of a juggling match to me. You could probably argue that it's a double mainevent one match should be used to elevate a new guy, but this whole Undertaker has a great match at Wrestlemania thing has taken on a life of its own in the past few years. I guess they're just milking it dry.

And I understand why they do it. But any value that match had is effectively gone now that the match is over. WWE can't really do anything to build off of it. It was a one-shot deal. There would still be plenty of options that could carry week-to-week stuff for a while if they were genuinely trying to get a guy to that level (and by that level, I don't mean going the route of someone like Alberto Del Rio or Daniel Bryan winning the title in a fluke MITB match).

[goodhelmet]

And if we never see HHH, HBK, Taker, Jim Ross or the Hell in a Cell again then so be it. Good memorable way to go out. At some point, the old guys have to disappear for good so Cena and Orton can be the old guys. Finding another Jim Ross... Never going to happen.

[Loss]

Yes, it does. Vince's logic in this show was supposedly that people would buy the show for the older stars, but see something that impressed them on the show with the younger guys, and then that would motivate them to follow WWE again. So Bryan/Sheamus getting 18 seconds seems to work against that goal.

 

So let's say they ran an angle where Sheamus shaved the Undertaker bald and challenged his streak? Even if he lost the match at Mania, if he got in the right amount of offense and the match was worked the right way, it wouldn't matter. The last boom was created by sacrificing a lot of the sacred cows and getting ballsy, which I don't see happening now at all.

I think there's an argument that Sheamus squashing Bryan in 18 seconds works better than just giving them 6-12 minutes to have a basic back and forth match that wouldn't be memorable after the monster epics that followed it. I mean this was closer to Diesel vs. Backlund than Bruno vs. Rogers or Warrior vs. Honky Tonk Man, but putting over the new champion quickly over the hated heel champion is a tried and true WWE booking formula, and most fans in the arena did pop big for it.

That's when you'd need someone like Vince putting his foot down with HHH and Undertaker saying this is an important show for Bryan and Sheamus to get over and they need time, but we all know that won't happen.

 

Really most of the WWF sacred cows in the mid 90s were only sacrificed because they jumped ship to WCW (Hall and Nash), were being pushed out to save cash (Bret) or suffered career threatening injuries (Shawn), freeing space at the top of the card for Austin, Foley, Rock and Hunter to break through. Now, you need guys to voluntarily fall on their sword to create a new guy and it's not surprising that they rather opt to put over established stars that are their longtime friends, which also guarantees a higher spot on the WrestleMania card and being able to hold onto it for longer (Flair over Shawn, Taker over Shawn and Hunter for the last four years).

If you look at some of the hottest angles during that time, the guys on top weren't so much just beaten in the middle or sidelined with an injury as they were humiliated. Hawk had his mohawk shaved, which never would have happened 10 years earlier. Same for Piper having his hip attacked with a chair and spray painted, Savage having a yellow streak painted down his back or Davey Boy being beaten in his home country while the top heel teases making out with his wife. I think that's the kind of heat seeking stuff that's needed to make things interesting again. Putting belts on guys means nothing, as we've seen, because they just push the title down the card under the guise of giving the champion a push.

[El-P]

I sure hope Taker has a sendoff of his own, he's the greatest character ever (despite period of sucking both as a gimmick and as a worker), and The Icon to the company. He deserves the biggest sendoff ever, without having Michaels and HHH hogging his last spotlight.

Orton is 32, Cena is 34. Does that mean these two will be on top for the next 10 years ?... Scary thought. I think both will be gone before they hit 40. If not, well, welcome to the AWA.

[Ricky Jackson]

Good show. Memorable. I watched it with a group of people, and the mix of social interaction with a six pack of beer definitely prevented my usual cynicism with WWE from taking over.

 

First hour was as dull as it gets, though. I'm fine with Sheamus vs Bryan being a shock squash. Made it feel like "anything can happen tonight" right from the get go. That said, considering what followed, maybe Cody vs Show would have been a better choice for squash opener. Sucks for Bryan fans. Hopefully one day we can look back at the match as just a HHH vs Warrior type moment in the grand scheme of his career.

 

HHH vs Taker had everybody I was watching with totally glued to the TV and marking out, even though as I was watching it unfold a voice in my head was thinking "This is the type of match the PWO crew will shit all over", and if I was watching this by myself I probably would have rolled my eyes a few times over the whole bloated spectacle of it all. Still, I liked the match last night. I thought the superkick into the Pedigree near fall was awesome. The finish was a bit anti-climatic, and the cage didn't even really come into play at all, but because of the long backstory of the characters involved, the whole epic drama, Two Gods Fighting on a Mountain-feel worked for me. Will I ever watch the match again? Probably not.

 

Punk vs Jericho was my favorite match of the night. Great, dramatic, finishing sequence. Huge pop for the finish with the crowd I was watching with. Made me feel like I was fifteen again and Bret Hart just made Razor Ramon submit to the Sharpshooter at the Royal Rumble. WWE needs to do more of these big-time, great athletic contest between two great wrestlers-type matches.

 

I felt the main event was a bit underwhelming, but with all the endless hype, and the previous matches upping the ante, it was in a tough spot to meet my exaggerated expectations. I'll have to watch it again someday. I guess I expected a Hogan vs Rock feel, which was unrealistic considering the uniqueness of that situation and the fact that the outdoor shows really mute the heat of the crowd. The finish was well-booked. Instead of closing the book on the feud with a clean Cena win, there is now a feeling of uncertainty with the upcoming direction of both guys. I'm interested in where they go from here.

 

Overall, it was a fun night of wrestling.

[jdw]

Punk-Jericho bored the shit out of the crowd at Casa del Hoback, and it wasn't just Yohe, Hoback and me. Two of James friends were there. One is a long time regular watcher of the WWE, clearly "smart" to the business, but not a newsletter reader like us. The other actually trained at APW back in the early days, so certainly has a different perspective than us.

 

If you could best describe the common thread/theme of how people viewed it, everyone felt like the match just sat there. Solid in general, but a match that would have worked better on a July or December PPV indoors and away from the big epic stage where there are Rock-Cena and Taker-Trip type of matches. There was the sense, and generally agreed upon by everyone, that the two didn't really know (or get) how to layout a match that worked in the setting, especially after Taker-Trip and right before the crowd was looking forward to Cena-Rock. Jericho and Punk really needed to layout a match that sucked folks in, hooked then and kept them... most importantly not wasting time.

 

Instead, Jericho and Punk had in mind the match they wanted to work. The silly DQ stuff didn't help.

 

I'd qualify all that with the comment that none of the five of us are Punk Marks. None are Punk Haters (i.e. like people who hate Davey Richards or Shawn Michaels) either. No one went into these with the predisposition to like/love/cut it slack because it was one of their favorites out there. Most of us went into it generally hoping for a good match. No one really thought it was good, nor really thought it was the drizzling shits.

 

We did all this the Taker-Trip and Rock-Cena hit the marks for what they were suppose to be.

 

John

[Matt D]

I've already explained why I liked Punk/Jericho. I've seen them put on shitty shitty matches and that was not one of them.

 

That said, I was probably watching it in a vacuum. I'm really good at blocking out the crowd when watching a match these days for some reason. Crowd reaction is just about the last thing I look for since I care more about myself thant hem. I also don't have the slightest idea how the match worked as part of the show as a whole. I half watched HITC without sound, came back in during the entrances for the big tag, and left after Rocky/Cena's entrances-stare down. I DID think it worked great given the build the match had though.

 

I think in a vacuum it's going to come off much better in a rewatch. I think it's also going to come off fine if you were to watch the build leading up to it and then watch the match.

 

Granted, I do tend to watch most older things in context now, so I appreciate the argument. It might have been the wrong match in the wrong spot for the night, but I thought it was a really well put together and executed match in general, except for that I wish Punk specifically sold the back a little more and I didn't entirely buy the rana attempt.

 

Am I really the only one who though the DQ stuff was both conceptually good and well executed?

[Jingus]

That's when you'd need someone like Vince putting his foot down with HHH and Undertaker saying this is an important show for Bryan and Sheamus to get over and they need time, but we all know that won't happen.

Vince would have to put his foot down with himself first. It felt like there was at least a solid hour of filler crap on the show which had nothing to do with wrestling. All the awful rap bullshit was the big example, but there was plenty of time being wasted with self-congratulatory video packages and comedy segments and sponsor shilling and all kinds of junk.

 

Anecdotal experience: HHH/Taker was by far the most over match with the group of guys I watched the show with. They totally bought the nearfalls, winced (in a good way) at the chairshots, and ate up the drama in general. Even a first-time viewer who'd never watched wrestling before was incredibly into that shit.

[sek69]

JR coming back to call HITC really made it hit home how much he's the Rock of announcing in terms of how far above everyone else he is. In fact, with the group I was watching with it turned into a major point of discussion during Rock/Cena how much the commentary was killing the epic feel of the match. There were times where you know JR would be selling his ass off making it seem like one or the other guy was in serious mortal danger, but Cole was like a wet blanket the whole time. Vince or someone else producing must have noticed too, since it seemed Lawler was trying to work harder than normal to hype things up and it didn't seem like he was comfortable doing it/

[cm funk]

Loved Jericho-Punk, liked Rock-Cena for the performances and atmosphere if not so much mechanically, 12 man tag was ok, everything else was meh.

 

the Bryan squash was such a dumb way to open the show. Not that I think it buries Bryan, but it was such an anti-climatic way for Sheamus to win the world championship. It killed the crowd and it killed me watching at home. Then followed by two boring matches and the entire first hour sucked. Orton tried and it got better as it went on, but Kane just isn't very good (I know guys like working with him, but as a fan he's pretty terrible), and I can't believe they put him over. Orton doesn't seem to care about doing jobs, but save em for somebody up and coming. I do give them credit for working the twilight into the story of the match, that was pretty cool. Cody and Show bored me, I've gone from thinking Cody was really underrated a while back to thinking he's overrated now.

 

Couldn't get into HIAC at all, and I loved last year's match. Wasn't feeling the Michaels as ref aspect and the whole thing felt less epic than it should have. HIAC as a gimmick is pretty much dead, this was the match that could have returned some luster to it, and it felt like any other match that just happened to have a cage around it. It's beyond a dead horse, but a match like this needs blood. HHH even did a fake bladejob spot where he went to the ground with his hands at his face, they cut the camera angle, then he stood up on his knees and did the heavy breathing. It was note for note what what HHH does when he blades.....except no blood.

 

Thought Jericho needed the win more than Punk, but the match was so great that I can't complain. Lots of cool spots and reversals, lots of stiff striking, really loved this match.

 

I was glad Rock won, I just hope they have interesting follow up ideas with Cena, and he needs to have a great promo in him for RAW tonight.

 

And it almost goes without saying, but the production of the show was amazing. Beautiful set and great use of the sky with the overhead shots and fireworks during some of the entrances. Jericho's entrance was probably my favorite of the night.

[flyonthewall2983]

Maria managed to win while having Aunt Flo from Red Bank show up while wearing white pants. That's great and who cares at the same time.

I want to believe that's what happened, as opposed to the more obvious and ugly alternative everybody thought last night.

[MikeCampbell]

I appreciated the effort from Cody to work smart, by taking out Show's knee. But the guys I was watching with all agreed that *THAT* was the match to have the quick pin on, especially with the angle of Cody dogging show nonstop. Bell rings, Cody runs into punch, pin. That's the perfect way to pay off that whole storyline.

 

There were things I enjoyed about Hell in a Cell, like UT stepping on the sledge and laughing at HHH, but I didn't think it was great. I also think that Taker should have layed out Shawn afterwards for his part in that superkick to pedigree spot.