jdw Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Lance forgets Brock losing to Eddy Guerrero a month before he left in 2004 I see... Eddy before he left. Show in 2002. Angle in 2003. I suspect we'll find others. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 I think he was being more general there, to be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Lance forgets Brock losing to Eddy Guerrero a month before he left in 2004 I see... Eddy before he left. Show in 2002. Angle in 2003. I suspect we'll find others. John You won't, Bradshaw beat him at at house show in early 2002. That is four guys, which still basically supports his point. Also Angle at Summerslam was the only clean loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Benoit submitted him at Survivor Series 2003. That would be in his "last run" if we're trying to narrow this down to make Lance's bullshit sound plausible. Do we need to document his entire TV & PPV history? Back at the time, a lot of folks thought that the WWE didn't make Brock look strong enough after he beat Rock. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Talking with casual fans the past couple of days every one of them thought that Cena winning was the right finish because Cena was getting his ass kicked for over a month and he needed to get the win. Most of these fans are glad that Brock is "gone" and don't want him back mainly because they see him as a UFC guy. A couple of them said that if they wanted to see something like Brock they would watch UFC and don't want that mixed in with WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Benoit submitted him at Survivor Series 2003. That would be in his "last run" if we're trying to narrow this down to make Lance's bullshit sound plausible. Do we need to document his entire TV & PPV history? Back at the time, a lot of folks thought that the WWE didn't make Brock look strong enough after he beat Rock. John I still think it works as a more general statement. They invested a lot into Brock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Benoit submitted him at Survivor Series 2003. That would be in his "last run" if we're trying to narrow this down to make Lance's bullshit sound plausible. Do we need to document his entire TV & PPV history? Back at the time, a lot of folks thought that the WWE didn't make Brock look strong enough after he beat Rock. John Wow five losses. Brock was a later day Cruel Connection #4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Here's Brock's "last run", starting with Kurt winning the title and going through Mania. Results and descriptions from Graham's site. TV and PPV matches only. PPV are bolded. July 27, 2003 Vengeance 03 Kurt Angle defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar and the Big Show at 17:38 to win the title after hitting the Olympic Slam on both opponents and scoring the pin on Lesnar July 29, 2003 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Kurt Angle & Brock Lesnar defeated the Big Show & Albert (mystery opponents picked by Vince McMahon) when Angle made the blind tag in and pinned Show after he suffered Lesnar's F5; after the bout, Lesnar took exception to Angle getting the win and hit the F5 on the champion before Vince McMahon came out and made two stipulations to his scheduled match with Lesnar the following week - not only would it now be a steel cage match but the special referee would be Kurt Angle August 5, 2003 Smackdown! Brock Lesnar fought Vince McMahon to a no contest in a steel cage match when Lesnar seemingly passed out in the ring, after being attacked backstage earlier in the evening; as McMahon argued with guest referee Kurt Angle, Lesnar rose to his feet and hit the F5 on Angle before it became clear that Lesnar's injury and bout with McMahon was just a setup for Angle August 12, 2003 Smackdown! Spanky defeated Brock Lesnar via disqualification after Lesnar shoved the referee out of the ring and hit his opponent over the head with a chair before hitting an F5 into the steel ringpost on the floor; after the match, Spanky had to be taken from ringside on a stretcher, while Brock smeared the blood of his opponent onto his chest August 19, 2003 Smackdown! Zach Gowen defeated Brock Lesnar via disqualification after Lesnar hit Gowen over the head with a chair on the outside; prior to the bout, Lesnar brutally attacked Gowen on the floor - in front of his mother who sat ringside; after the bout, Lesnar continued to attack Gowen and hit an F5 into the steel ringpost on two occassions; Gowen had to be taken from ringside on a stretcher but not before Lesnar pushed it over, took the stretcher as a trophy, and smeered Gowen's blood onto his chest August 24, 2003 - Summer Slam 03 WWE World Champion Kurt Angle defeated Brock Lesnar via submission with the ankle lock at 21:18 after avoiding an attempt at the F5; late in the bout, Vince McMahon came ringside and hit the champion in the back with a steel chair while the referee was knocked out; after the match, Angle avoided an attack from McMahon before dropping him onto a steel chair set up inside the ring August 26, 2003 Smackdown! The Undertaker defeated Brock Lesnar and the Big Show in a No DQ match at around the 15-minute mark by pinning Lesnar with a powerbomb out of the corner after Show tumbled off the top rope to the floor; due to pre-match stipulations, the Undertaker earned a world title shot against WWE World Champion Kurt Angle for the following week; Kurt Angle did guest commentary for the match; the match began during the commercial break September 9, 2003 Smackdown! Stephanie McMahon fought Brock Lesnar to a no contest when Kurt Angle joined in attacking Lesnar after Stephanie hit a low blow on both Lesnar and Vince McMahon September 16, 2003 Smackdown! Brock Lesnar defeated WWE World Champion Kurt Angle in a 60-minute Ironman match to win the title, 5-4; during the final seconds of the bout, Angle had the modified ankle lock applied on the challenger but Lesnar refused to submit and waited out the clock; voted Pro Wrestling Illustrated's Match of the Year; fall #1: Lesnar was disqualified at about 8:32 after hitting the champion with a steel chair; 1-0; fall #2: Lesnar pinned Angle with the F5 at 10:21; 1-1; fall #3: Lesnar forced Angle to submit with the ankle lock at 12:09; 1-2; fall #4: Angle was counted-out after recieving the F5 on the floor at 19:56; 1-3; fall #5: Angle pinned Lesnar with the Olympic Slam at 25:55; 2-3; fall #6: Lesnar pinned Angle after hitting him with the title belt at 30:27; 2-4; fall #7: Lesnar pinned Angle with a superplex; 2-5; fall #8: Angle pinned Lesnar with a belly to belly superplex at 50:29; 3-5; fall #9: Angle forced Lesnar to submit with the ankle lock at 56:11; 4-5 September 30, 2003 Smackdown! WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & John Cena defeated the Undertaker & Kurt Angle when Cena pinned Angle after hitting him with his chain October 7, 2003 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned Paul London with a powerbomb and the F5 at 1:34; after the match, Spanky came out for the save as Lesnar attempted to hit the F5 on London into the steel ringpost; Lesnar quickly tossed Spanky into the ringpost before the Undertaker came out and informed Lesnar that their title contest at No Mercy would be a Biker Chain Match October 19, 2003 - No Mercy 03 (Smackdown!) WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned the Undertaker in a Biker Chain Match at 24:16 by hitting the challenger with the chain after Vince McMahon came out from under the ring and crotched Taker on the top rope immediately after Taker took possession of the chain; Nunzio, Johnny Stamboli, and Chuck Palumbo interfered at the 21-minute mark but were quickly thrown out of the ring by Taker October 21, 2003 Smackdown! The Undertaker defeated WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show in a handicap match at 14:17 by pinning Lesnar after hitting both he and Show with a steel chain wrapped around his fist; Taker had originally pinned Show with a chokeslam off the top at 5:18 but Paul Heyman came out and made the match into a Best 2 out of 3 falls contest; Taker then won via count-out at 11:54 after throwing Lesnar into the front row but Heyman turned the bout into a No Count-Out match; Show & Lesnar were disqualified at 12:39 when Show hit Taker in the back with a chair but Heyman made the match into a No DQ contest; due to prematch stipulations, Taker earned the right to face anyone he wants, anywhere, anytime, and with any stipulations; after the match, Taker was further attacked by his opponents - eventually suffering an F5 into the ringpost; moments thereafter, Vince McMahon confronted the beaten and bruised Taker about who he wanted to fight; Taker then said he didn't want a title match with Lesnar but rather a Buried Alive match at Survivor Series with Vince himself October 28, 2003 Smackdown! The Acolytes defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show via disqualification at 3:10 when Lesnar hit Farooq with a chair; after the match, Farooq's ankle was trapped in a steel chair and Show hit a leg drop off the middle turnbuckle - crushing it in the chair; moments thereafter, Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit made the save - applying their respective submission holds - before Nathan Jones and Matt Morgan laid Angle and Benoit out November 4, 2003 Smackdown! Kurt Angle & Chris Benoit defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, Albert, Matt Morgan, & Nathan Jones via disqualification in a handicap match at 14:24 when the Big Show interfered as Angle had the ankle lock applied on Lesnar and Benoit had the Crippler Crossface applied on Albert; Lesnar himself did guest commentary for the early moments of the contest; after the match, Angle, Benoit, Bradshaw, and John Cena were all brutalized by Team Lesnar November 11, 2003 Smackdown! Chris Benoit & John Cena defeated WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show November 16, 2003 Survivor Series 03 Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, John Cena, Hardcore Holly, & Bradshaw defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, WWE US Champion the Big Show, Matt Morgan, Nathan Jones, & Albert in an elimination match at 13:17; Holly was disqualified for shoving the referee on the floor as a brawl ensued before the bell rang; Bradshaw pinned Albert with the Clothesline from Hell at the 28-second mark; Show pinned Bradshaw with the chokeslam at the 50-second mark after Jones hit Bradshaw from behind as he attempted the Clothesline from Hell; Angle pinned Morgan with the Olympic Slam at 9:06; Jones submitted to Angle's ankle lock at 9:31; Lesnar pinned Angle with the F5 at 9:44; Lesnar submitted to Benoit's Crippler Crossface at 11:51; Cena pinned Show with the FU after hitting him with a steel chain December 2, 2003 Smackdown! Chris Benoit defeated John Cena via submission with the Crippler Crossface at 16:20 after Cena knocked the Big Show, who came ringside moments earlier, off the ring apron; Cena originally won the match with the FU at 5:31 but a second referee disputed the call since Benoit's foot was on the bottom rope during the cover - thus the bout continued; due to prematch stipulations, Benoit earned a world title shot against Brock Lesnar later in the evening WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Chris Benoit via TKO at 14:34 when the challenger passed out while caught in the Brock Lock, after the champion hit Benoit's knee with a steel chair; after the bout, Lesnar put Benoit in the Crippler Crossface and slapped his hand to the mat - as though Benoit had submitted - since the challenger refused to tap out during the match itself December 9, 2003 Smackdown WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Rey Mysterio Jr. via submission with a modified half crab, with Mysterio's head wrapped around the champion's head, in a non-title match at 14:41; after the bout, Hardcore Holly - wearing street clothes - came out of the crowd and clotheslined Lesnar to the floor; had Mysterio won the match, he would have earned a title shot for the following week December 16, 2003 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Shannon Moore (mystery opponent) at 1:39 via submission with the Brock Lock; Moore was chosen as the challenger after being selected at random from the Smackdown! roster; after the bout, it was revealed that Moore was rigged to win and thus would be in less than 100% shape for the tag team main event January 20, 2004 Smackdown! Chris Benoit & John Cena defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, Matt Morgan, & Rhyno in a handicap match when Cena pinned Rhyno with the FU at around the 19-minute mark; WWE US Champion the Big Show was to have been a part of Lesnar's team but was locked in his dressing room by a forklift backstage; at around the 10-minute mark, Lesnar attempted to walk out on the match but was briefly attacked by Hardcore Holly until officials stepped in, allowing Lesnar to retreat backstage; after the, match, Benoit saved Cena from an attack by Matt Morgan before both he and Cena went to the floor and tipped over Paul Heyman's high chair, knocking Heyman into the ring; moments later, the Big Show came to the ring and hit chokeslams on both Benoit and Cena January 25, 2004 Royal Rumble 04 WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 6:30; prior to the bout officially beginning, the two battled around ringside January 27, 2004 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Orlando Jordan in a non-title match via submission with the Brock Lock at 4:19 February 10, 2004 Smackdown! Eddie Guerrero & John Cena (sub. for Kurt Angle) defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show at 17:26 when Guerrero pinned Lesnar with a low blow, using Cena's steel chain, and a cradle as Lesnar and the referee were distracted by Kurt Angle - who came ringside and hit both Cena and Show with a steel chair - blaming them for knocking him out backstage earlier in the broadcast February 15, 2004 No Way Out 04 Eddie Guerrero pinned WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar to win the title at 30:05 with the Frog Splash after reversing an attempt at the F5 into a tornado DDT onto the title belt; late in the bout, Lesnar attempted to use the title belt as a weapon while the referee was knocked out but Bill Goldberg, who was arrested earlier in the evening, came out and hit the spear on the champion; after the match, Guerrero celebrated in the crowd and was congratulated by his mother and brother Mondo who sat ringside February 24, 2004 Smackdown! Brock Lesnar pinned Billy Gunn with the F5 at 8:19 after Gunn hit the corner March 2, 2004 Smackdown Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 2:48; prior to the bout, Lesnar drove to the ring on Steve Austin's stolen ATV and cut an in-ring promo on Austin and Bill Goldberg; after the bout, Lesnar celebrated the win by drinking two beers and having Austin's theme music play as he drove backstage on the ATV - 3/9/04: Immediately after the Smackdown! taping, Brock Lesnar abruptly quit the WWE but agreed to work his scheduled match at WrestleMania. March 14, 2004 WrestleMania XX Bill Goldberg pinned Brock Lesnar at 13:48 with the spear and Jackhammer; after the bout, guest referee Steve Austin hit the Stunner on Lesnar before doing the same to Goldberg (Lesnar and Goldberg's last match in the WWE) * * * * * * * Just to make it easier, here are the PPV: July 27, 2003 Vengeance 03 Kurt Angle defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar and the Big Show at 17:38 to win the title after hitting the Olympic Slam on both opponents and scoring the pin on Lesnar 0-1 August 24, 2003 - Summer Slam 03 WWE World Champion Kurt Angle defeated Brock Lesnar via submission with the ankle lock at 21:18 after avoiding an attempt at the F5 0-2 October 19, 2003 - No Mercy 03 (Smackdown!) WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned the Undertaker in a Biker Chain Match at 24:16 by hitting the challenger with the chain after Vince McMahon came out from under the ring and crotched Taker on the top rope immediately after Taker took possession of the chain 1-2 November 16, 2003 Survivor Series 03 Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, John Cena, Hardcore Holly, & Bradshaw defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, WWE US Champion the Big Show, Matt Morgan, Nathan Jones, & Albert in an elimination match at 13:17; Holly was disqualified for shoving the referee on the floor as a brawl ensued before the bell rang; Bradshaw pinned Albert with the Clothesline from Hell at the 28-second mark; Show pinned Bradshaw with the chokeslam at the 50-second mark after Jones hit Bradshaw from behind as he attempted the Clothesline from Hell; Angle pinned Morgan with the Olympic Slam at 9:06; Jones submitted to Angle's ankle lock at 9:31; Lesnar pinned Angle with the F5 at 9:44; Lesnar submitted to Benoit's Crippler Crossface at 11:51; Cena pinned Show with the FU after hitting him with a steel chain 1-3 (taps to Benoit) January 25, 2004 Royal Rumble 04 WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 6:30 2-3 (over a FUCKING HOLLY!) February 15, 2004 No Way Out 04 Eddie Guerrero pinned WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar to win the title at 30:05 with the Frog Splash after reversing an attempt at the F5 into a tornado DDT onto the title belt 2-4 March 14, 2004 WrestleMania XX Bill Goldberg pinned Brock Lesnar at 13:48 with the spear and Jackhammer 2-5 Um... yeah. * * * * * The only pin of note by Brock on a PPV in that stretch was over Taker. How did their Feud go? August 26, 2003 Smackdown! The Undertaker defeated Brock Lesnar and the Big Show in a No DQ match at around the 15-minute mark by pinning Lesnar with a powerbomb out of the corner after Show tumbled off the top rope to the floor; due to pre-match stipulations, the Undertaker earned a world title shot against WWE World Champion Kurt Angle for the following week; Kurt Angle did guest commentary for the match; the match began during the commercial break 0-1 with Brock taking the pin. September 30, 2003 Smackdown! WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & John Cena defeated the Undertaker & Kurt Angle when Cena pinned Angle after hitting him with his chain Still 0-1 as Cena gets to pin Angle. October 19, 2003 - No Mercy 03 (Smackdown!) WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned the Undertaker in a Biker Chain Match at 24:16 by hitting the challenger with the chain after Vince McMahon came out from under the ring and crotched Taker on the top rope immediately after Taker took possession of the chain; Nunzio, Johnny Stamboli, and Chuck Palumbo interfered at the 21-minute mark but were quickly thrown out of the ring by Taker 1-1 as Taker gets the big PPV win! Wait... what's this? October 21, 2003 Smackdown! The Undertaker defeated WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show in a handicap match at 14:17 by pinning Lesnar after hitting both he and Show with a steel chain wrapped around his fist; Taker had originally pinned Show with a chokeslam off the top at 5:18 but Paul Heyman came out and made the match into a Best 2 out of 3 falls contest; Taker then won via count-out at 11:54 after throwing Lesnar into the front row but Heyman turned the bout into a No Count-Out match; Show & Lesnar were disqualified at 12:39 when Show hit Taker in the back with a chair but Heyman made the match into a No DQ contest; due to prematch stipulations, Taker earned the right to face anyone he wants, anywhere, anytime, and with any stipulations; after the match, Taker was further attacked by his opponents - eventually suffering an F5 into the ringpost; moments thereafter, Vince McMahon confronted the beaten and bruised Taker about who he wanted to fight; Taker then said he didn't want a title match with Lesnar but rather a Buried Alive match at Survivor Series with Vince himself Taker beats Brock *and* Show in a handicap match not once... not twice... not three times... but FOUR FUCKING TIMES!!! 1. Taker pinned Show with a chokeslam off the top at 5:18 2. Taker via COR after throwing Lesnar into the front row at 11:54 3. Show & Lesnar via DQ when Show hit Taker in the back with a chair at 12:39 4. Taker pinned Lesnar after hitting both he and Show with a steel chain wrapped around his fist at 14:17 HOLY SHIT!!! Brock lost that feud 1-2, and basically... kind of... looked like... um... a total bitch getting clocked by Taker with Show at his side and "the fix was in" with Paul E making up the rules as they went along. Wait... it gets better. Brock is such a bitch to Taker and the World Title is such a little piece of hardware that Taker would rather have a match on the next PPV with... Wait for it... Vince McMahon. * * * * * Please. Lance is full of fucking shit. Talking out of his ass. A dumb fuck. Has either forgotten history or wants to rewrite it. Some of us lived through the painful dogshit of a promotion that the WWF turned into starting on 9/2/02 when Trip decided to give himself a World Title and gut the legs off of Brock's push right after Hogan and Rock put him over so strongly in the prior 29 days. 2003 through Mania 2004 was at a time when we still gave a shit and were only half numb by the incredible stupidity of the promotion. Lance may not remember. But we remember that Brock wasn't pushed as the unbeatable monster that folks seem to recall a decade removed from it with fuzzy brains. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Benoit submitted him at Survivor Series 2003. That would be in his "last run" if we're trying to narrow this down to make Lance's bullshit sound plausible. Do we need to document his entire TV & PPV history? Back at the time, a lot of folks thought that the WWE didn't make Brock look strong enough after he beat Rock. John Wow five losses. Brock was a later day Cruel Connection #4. Seriously? You want me to go through his whole run? He was pinned or submitted on 5 out of his last 7 PPV appearances... which was his "last run" in the WWF. Are people this forgetful of history, or too lazy to look stuff up? :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Please. Lance is full of fucking shit. Talking out of his ass. A dumb fuck. Has either forgotten history or wants to rewrite it. That's not exactly a new thing with Lance. Wasn't he arguing a long time ago that Great Sasuke and Toshiaki Kawada weren't very good workers and that people who did the DVDVR 500 had no business talking about wrestling because they never got inside a ring ? Why is Lance Storm giving his opinion every two weeks on F4online anyway ? What has made him such a great wrestling analyst to begin with ? He sure wasn't a very good worker, he wasn't a good promo at all, he never drew shit, his biggest claim to fame is being carried by Justin Credible in ECW and be a multiple champion in Russo's WCW, helped by the presence of a pair of boobs at his side on both occurences (I guess to hide his total absence of charisma or personnality) . Never did much of anything that is particulary famous even on a cult level. I mean, Lance seems like a good guy, was probably very safe to work with, but I don't see exactly where he's coming from. But I'm narrow minded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Please. Lance is full of fucking shit. Talking out of his ass. A dumb fuck. Has either forgotten history or wants to rewrite it.Nothing of note to really add but I agree with this. I knew I wasn't going to agree with or enjoy what he wrote when he tried to build-up his credibility by saying "I've been in the business for 20 years" as if that some how makes his opinion more valid or some shit. I **HATE** that argument. Lance Storm reminds me of Disco Inferno when Disco was going off on that mark message forum and telling everyone that they didn't know what they were talking about and weren't allowed to have an opinion because they never worked a match before. To relate it to a real sport, LeBron James made a Twitter comment about Kendrick Perkins getting dunked on by Blake Griffin. Perkins was pissed-off at the comments because he got clowned, so he responded by saying "maybe you should win a title before you run your mouth" or some shit. So then Shaquille O'Neal responded and said "I've won titles. YOU GOT DUNKED ON, SON!" It reminds me of that. Shaq's opinion wasn't any better than LeBron's just cause he has titles and neither man was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Benoit submitted him at Survivor Series 2003. That would be in his "last run" if we're trying to narrow this down to make Lance's bullshit sound plausible. Do we need to document his entire TV & PPV history? Back at the time, a lot of folks thought that the WWE didn't make Brock look strong enough after he beat Rock. John Wow five losses. Brock was a later day Cruel Connection #4. Seriously? You want me to go through his whole run? He was pinned or submitted on 5 out of his last 7 PPV appearances... which was his "last run" in the WWF. Are people this forgetful of history, or too lazy to look stuff up? :/ Not a ton of losses. Very very few clean losses. Even when he was a heel. The basic point is he ran rough shod over the entire roster and rarely lost before splitting. Its a bunch of nit picking horse shit. You can count the number of times Brock lost cleanly on one hand. You also conveniently left out that Eddy would have lost if not for Goldberg. Also that he squashed Bob Holly at the Rumble. The whole second Brock/Taker feud was to set up Vince/Taker so Undertaker could die and be reborn. You could say that you could of done Taker/Brock Buried Alive. My guess is the thinking was if Brock helped Kane bury Taker, they would have to deal with it before Mania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Brock was booked strong, but not as strong as he should have been. He definitely was not as bad a victim of the even-steven booking that everyone after him has been. Brock leaving WWE was far worse for them mentally than it was business wise. Because it made them so fucking paranoid to push anyone new, that as soon as someone new got over they had to put them in some long ass holding position to "test" them first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 How could he have been booked stronger? He could not run over the roster forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Not a ton of losses. Very very few clean losses. Even when he was a heel. The basic point is he ran rough shod over the entire roster and rarely lost before splitting. He was a heel who lost on was pinned or tapped on 5 of his last 7 PPV matches covering 07/27/03 to 03/14/2004. He also jobbed to Taker on TV in a Brock+Show+Heyman vs Taker match to allow Taker to Win the Brock-Taker II Feud. Seriously... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 He was put over a lot of people on the way up the card in 2002. He was a top star for his entire run. He was gone in less than two years. WWE made a big investment the first time around and didn't get much return out of it, as it's not like he was a major draw. His won/loss record is really irrelevant. His position on the card is far more relevant. He was pushed as a top guy and they weren't able to get anything out of him long term. WWE doesn't put people over the Undertaker cleanly in Hell in a Cell matches that they don't see in the long term mix as a rule. As a result of him not being a lifer, WWE doesn't trust him now. The only insane or irrational part of that is that they brought him back and paid him $5 million without trusting him, and without intending to get a return on their investment. But right or wrong, I can see how WWE would feel burned by the first run. Either way, there's a double standard, just like there always is on these things. I think back to the WCW days, and all you really heard from people at that time was how the highest paid guys on the roster needed to be doing more jobs. And these were people that had a track record of drawing in pro wrestling. None of this is a criticism of Brock leaving. If anything, it's a criticism of WWE for bringing him back without either protecting themselves contractually to avoid a walkout, or ensuring that they trusted the guy enough to do business with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Jesus Christ, pro wrestling is not fucking math. July 27, 2003 Vengeance 03 Kurt Angle defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar and the Big Show at 17:38 to win the title after hitting the Olympic Slam on both opponents and scoring the pin on Lesnar It was a triple threat match with Big Show and he was pinned by the biggest star (tied with Undertaker) on Smackdown. WWE World Champion Kurt Angle defeated Brock Lesnar via submission with the ankle lock at 21:18 after avoiding an attempt at the F5; late in the bout, Vince McMahon came ringside and hit the champion in the back with a steel chair while the referee was knocked out; after the match, Angle avoided an attack from McMahon before dropping him onto a steel chair set up inside the ring Submitted to Angle. So at this point in his career, he has lost to two different wrestlers, Kurt Angle and Big Show. The Undertaker defeated WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show in a handicap match at 14:17 by pinning Lesnar after hitting both he and Show with a steel chain wrapped around his fist He was punched with a chain by the fucking Undertaker. The guy he dominated the previous fall. So now Brock has been pinned by three different wrestlers. Only one being a clean loss. Lesnar submitted to Benoit's Crippler Crossface at 11:51;In an elimination match and to the guy who would main event Wrestlemania. If you count this, the tally goes up to four separate wrestlers in a year, who have defeated Lesnar by pin or submission. February 15, 2004 No Way Out 04 Eddie Guerrero pinned WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar to win the title at 30:05 with the Frog Splash after reversing an attempt at the F5 into a tornado DDT onto the title belt After Goldberg ran in. So now the tally is up to five men who have managed to beat Brock by pin or submission. Only one managing to do it cleanly. Which leads us to March 14, 2004 WrestleMania XX Bill Goldberg pinned Brock Lesnar at 13:48 with the spear and Jackhammer And we now have Brock's second clean televised loss in two years with WWE. Which the only reason he lost was because he had given notice. I'm actually wrong, you can count Brock's total losses on two hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 the people bitching that WWE killed Brock Lesnar by having John Cena beat him at the Extreme Rules PPV last night are narrow minded I'm curious if he wrote this before RAW or after RAW. Because if he wrote this after RAW, then I'll never listen to anything he ever says again. He also tried to play the "he lost his first fight in UFC too!" card which just makes him look like a damn fool. Before RAW I still think it works as a more general statement. They invested a lot into Brock. And yeah this. I'm surprised ppl missed that point to nit pick that of course he didn't literally win every single match he had in his original 2+ year run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 How could he have been booked stronger? He could not run over the roster forever. It's a little hard to "run over the roster" when he jobbed to Angle on back-to-back PPV matches, "won" that feud on TV in the Iron Man, beat Taker on the next PPV only to "lose" the feud on TV. From 07/27/03 to 10/21/03 he wasn't running over the roster: he was booked in what Goc correctly calls even-steven booking with Angle and Taker, the other two biggest stars on SmackDown. He didn't remotely run over those two. So then we're left with 10/28/03 - 03/14/04 which is the period where Brock must have been running over the roster. October 28, 2003 Smackdown! The Acolytes defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show via disqualification at 3:10 when Lesnar hit Farooq with a chair; after the match, Farooq's ankle was trapped in a steel chair and Show hit a leg drop off the middle turnbuckle - crushing it in the chair; moments thereafter, Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit made the save - applying their respective submission holds - before Nathan Jones and Matt Morgan laid Angle and Benoit out Lost. November 4, 2003 Smackdown! Kurt Angle & Chris Benoit defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, Albert, Matt Morgan, & Nathan Jones via disqualification in a handicap match at 14:24 when the Big Show interfered as Angle had the ankle lock applied on Lesnar and Benoit had the Crippler Crossface applied on Albert; Lesnar himself did guest commentary for the early moments of the contest; after the match, Angle, Benoit, Bradshaw, and John Cena were all brutalized by Team Lesnar Lost. November 11, 2003 Smackdown! Chris Benoit & John Cena defeated WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show Lost. November 16, 2003 Survivor Series 03 Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, John Cena, Hardcore Holly, & Bradshaw defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, WWE US Champion the Big Show, Matt Morgan, Nathan Jones, & Albert in an elimination match at 13:17; Holly was disqualified for shoving the referee on the floor as a brawl ensued before the bell rang; Bradshaw pinned Albert with the Clothesline from Hell at the 28-second mark; Show pinned Bradshaw with the chokeslam at the 50-second mark after Jones hit Bradshaw from behind as he attempted the Clothesline from Hell; Angle pinned Morgan with the Olympic Slam at 9:06; Jones submitted to Angle's ankle lock at 9:31; Lesnar pinned Angle with the F5 at 9:44; Lesnar submitted to Benoit's Crippler Crossface at 11:51; Cena pinned Show with the FU after hitting him with a steel chain Lost. So of the 10/28/03 - 03/14/04 period, we can chop off 10/28/03 - 11/16/03 right off the bat. Let's look at the rest. December 2, 2003 Smackdown! Chris Benoit defeated John Cena via submission with the Crippler Crossface at 16:20 after Cena knocked the Big Show, who came ringside moments earlier, off the ring apron; Cena originally won the match with the FU at 5:31 but a second referee disputed the call since Benoit's foot was on the bottom rope during the cover - thus the bout continued; due to prematch stipulations, Benoit earned a world title shot against Brock Lesnar later in the evening WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Chris Benoit via TKO at 14:34 when the challenger passed out while caught in the Brock Lock, after the champion hit Benoit's knee with a steel chair; after the bout, Lesnar put Benoit in the Crippler Crossface and slapped his hand to the mat - as though Benoit had submitted - since the challenger refused to tap out during the match itself "Won" his feud with Benoit after Benoit had fo go 16+ earlier on the card with Cena... and only after Show distracted Cena. December 9, 2003 Smackdown WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Rey Mysterio Jr. via submission with a modified half crab, with Mysterio's head wrapped around the champion's head, in a non-title match at 14:41; after the bout, Hardcore Holly - wearing street clothes - came out of the crowd and clotheslined Lesnar to the floor; had Mysterio won the match, he would have earned a title shot for the following week He had a throw away match with Rey. It's probably worthwhile to look up how Rey was pushed at this time. Rey wasn't World Champion Rey yet, and going 14+ with the Monster Brock was pretty damn respectable. December 16, 2003 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Shannon Moore (mystery opponent) at 1:39 via submission with the Brock Lock; Moore was chosen as the challenger after being selected at random from the Smackdown! roster; after the bout, it was revealed that Moore was rigged to win and thus would be in less than 100% shape for the tag team main event Brock ran through Shannon Moore!!! Woo-Hoo~! Monster push~! January 20, 2004 Smackdown! Chris Benoit & John Cena defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar, Matt Morgan, & Rhyno in a handicap match when Cena pinned Rhyno with the FU at around the 19-minute mark; WWE US Champion the Big Show was to have been a part of Lesnar's team but was locked in his dressing room by a forklift backstage; at around the 10-minute mark, Lesnar attempted to walk out on the match but was briefly attacked by Hardcore Holly until officials stepped in, allowing Lesnar to retreat backstage; after the, match, Benoit saved Cena from an attack by Matt Morgan before both he and Cena went to the floor and tipped over Paul Heyman's high chair, knocking Heyman into the ring; moments later, the Big Show came to the ring and hit chokeslams on both Benoit and Cena Brock's team lost this handicap match, and it doesn't look like Brock was running over anyone here. January 25, 2004 Royal Rumble 04 WWE Smackdown! World Champion Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 6:30; prior to the bout officially beginning, the two battled around ringside Brock squashes noted massive draw Hardcore Holly. Monster push~! January 27, 2004 Smackdown! WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar defeated Orlando Jordan in a non-title match via submission with the Brock Lock at 4:19 Brock is really running through the roster now. Shannon Moore... Hardcore Holly... Orlando Jones. February 10, 2004 Smackdown! Eddie Guerrero & John Cena (sub. for Kurt Angle) defeated WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar & WWE US Champion the Big Show at 17:26 when Guerrero pinned Lesnar with a low blow, using Cena's steel chain, and a cradle as Lesnar and the referee were distracted by Kurt Angle - who came ringside and hit both Cena and Show with a steel chair - blaming them for knocking him out backstage earlier in the broadcast Hmmm... did Eddy just pin Brock there? Was that counted among the "five times" Brock lost in his final push? February 15, 2004 No Way Out 04 Eddie Guerrero pinned WWE World Champion Brock Lesnar to win the title at 30:05 with the Frog Splash after reversing an attempt at the F5 into a tornado DDT onto the title belt; late in the bout, Lesnar attempted to use the title belt as a weapon while the referee was knocked out but Bill Goldberg, who was arrested earlier in the evening, came out and hit the spear on the champion; after the match, Guerrero celebrated in the crowd and was congratulated by his mother and brother Mondo who sat ringside And again? February 24, 2004 Smackdown! Brock Lesnar pinned Billy Gunn with the F5 at 8:19 after Gunn hit the corner Yep, Brock is really running through the roster now. March 2, 2004 Smackdown Brock Lesnar pinned Hardcore Holly with the F5 at 2:48; prior to the bout, Lesnar drove to the ring on Steve Austin's stolen ATV and cut an in-ring promo on Austin and Bill Goldberg; after the bout, Lesnar celebrated the win by drinking two beers and having Austin's theme music play as he drove backstage on the ATV Poor Hardcore Holly has to job twice to Brock. There goes the Hall of Fame career. - 3/9/04: Immediately after the Smackdown! taping, Brock Lesnar abruptly quit the WWE but agreed to work his scheduled match at WrestleMania. Well, can you blame him? March 14, 2004 WrestleMania XX Bill Goldberg pinned Brock Lesnar at 13:48 with the spear and Jackhammer; after the bout, guest referee Steve Austin hit the Stunner on Lesnar before doing the same to Goldberg (Lesnar and Goldberg's last match in the WWE) And another job. So the 10/28/03 - 03/14/04 becomes 10/28/03 - 11/16/03: tag losses to set up TV win over Benoit, including Cripple Crossface job to Benoit at Survivor 12/02/03 - 01/27/04: wins over Benoit, Rey, Shannon Moore, Hardcore Holly (PPV), and Orlando Jones [ignoring the tag loss of his team on 01/20/04] 02/10/04 - 03/14/04: jobbing to Eddy (tag & singles) and Goldberg [setting aside the throwaway wins over Gunn and Holly on his last two tv matches leading into Mania] So Brock "ran through the roster" for less than two months and the only pushed heavyweight he beat in that period was Benoit. Then he lost to Eddy (to put over a new anchor Champ) and Goldberg. He didn't run over the roster for much time at all, and really didn't run over it. Over Angle? No. Over Taker? No Over Eddy? No Over Goldberg? No. Over Benoit? Benoit beat him to set up the singles match, and Brock won the singles match. The feud probably helped Benoit more than Brock considering who won the Royal Rumble and the main event of Wrestlemania. So even there, Brock didn't run over Benoit. So who at the top of the roster in his final run did Brock run over? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 I think by "last run", he meant "previous run", not "final run". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Jesus Christ, pro wrestling is not fucking math. Except that you're arguing from two different ends: 1. He didn't do jobs. 2. He ran over the roster in his final run The first isn't correct. The second isn't correct. So you morph the argument around into something else. This latest one has Taker and Angle the biggest stars on SmackDown, not the guy who was allegedly running through the roster. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Jesus fucking Christ. You are trying to argue that losing by disqualification is the same as doing a clean job. Brock Lesnar in his nearly two year WWE career lost via DQ or submission lost to exactly six different wrestlers. His total of clean jobs was two, to Kurt Angle and Goldberg. He lost exactly four singles matches in this run. To Big Show, Eddy Guerrero, Kurt Angle and Goldberg. So yeah the point stands. This latest one has Taker and Angle the biggest stars on SmackDown, not the guy who was allegedly running through the roster. Wrong, I think it is clear I was referring to Taker and Angle at various intervals being the top faces, depending on Brock's alignment. But that does not fit your narrative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 I think that Lance didn't go and look at results. He just remembered it how he remembered it, which, until you brought in the data, was how I remembered it too. Brock beat everyone including Hogan and Rock definitively. He got screwed by Heyman. Came back and beat Angle at Mania... and then it's all sort of a blur until Goldberg cost him the belt. Does anyone else remember it that way? Edit: Thinking back I was in England with no access to wrestling but Mania from 10/03-6/04 so that might explain some of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 To be fair, the Eddy title change was pushed as a passing of the torch moment. I don't blame Lance for not remembering some of the other losses, but that was a big match that he should have remembered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 I'm split in-between the two viewpoints. I think Lance is making too big a deal over who wins and who loses. That said... The Eddy loss is not the greatest example. It was a match that Brock mainly dominated and Eddy ended up winning due to the Goldberg run-in, which set up Brock for a Mania program right away, with Steve Austin having a role in it no less. Also, that program got time on their main show, as it was one of those "special" cross-brand Mania matches they do from time to time. I don't recall the Eddy-Angle match being set up until well after, and it also only got time on Smackdown. Not that it wasn't a major program at the time, but it's not like the loss to Eddy relegated Lesnar any. On the other hand, I recall from a house show I went to in Nov. '03 how inferior Brock was booked and made to look vs. Undertaker. I can't remember definite specifics, but it felt like the sneaky, sometimes cowardly heavyweight compared to a powerhouse, unstoppable heavyweight (like he was vs. Cena recently or against Taker the year before). Felt like a big change to me and less impressive as a result. Having the title, but being put into a feud like the Holly one seemed to add to taking the steam out of Brock. Made the way he lost to Eddy seem somewhat baffling, but I guess they wanted to set up his exit with a big program, with Austin Stunning him out of the company or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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