Strummer Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 I liked the angle where Jericho broke the bottle over Punk's head. The stuff last week was hit or miss. I don't think that segment would have got over if anyone but Punk was in it. Punk really seems to be into it I'll give him that. I think he thinks it's good stuff. The Jericho/Foley comparison is apt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 It's such a weird feud. Like all the ideas that were there were good. Them feuding over "Best in the World", then Jericho making it personal, talking about Punk's family, pouring booze on him, even Punk pretending to be drunk. They were all good ideas. I think WWE just overly complicates things instead of making them simple and SHORT. None of those things are good ideas. That's the problem. No, I meant what I said. There's nothing wrong with the ideas, just the execution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 What's good about them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 What's bad about them? What exactly are they supposed to feud over other than "I would like that World Title you have" "That's quite understandable, however I'm not quite ready to cease possession" If you want me to fantasy book all the ideas into a more coherent form than what they did: I'd have made the feud over "Best in the World"/WWE Title until after WrestleMania. Since Jericho loses in a straight up match and sees he can't beat Punk that way, he decides to get into his head with all the family stuff. Didn't see a problem with Jericho pouring JD on him and smashing the bottle on his head. Would have had Punk not be on the show in England except for them showing Punk going into the pub and never coming out. Next week WWE sends someone (preferably J.R.) to Punk's house to check on him (with a video camera of course) after "no one is able to get in touch with him after Raw last week" and finds him there "drunk." Like totally copy the Jerry Lawler is drunk angle. Jericho crows about how he wants a Chicago Street Fight so he can drag the pathetic alcoholic Punk around his hometown and embarrass him. Then Punk shows up the PPV and beats the shit out of Jericho for the blow off. At least better than what they did using all the same concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Rob Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 What's good about them?Two guys both claim to be the best in the World, and this obviously leads to an issue between the two. How, in theory, is that a bad idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 I think the biggest issue is that the audience clearly wanted to cheer Jericho when he returned. And they were so married to the angle they mapped out in advance that they thought that they knew better what the audience wanted, and tried to kill whatever positive excitement there was with Jericho's return. That worked ... a little too well. There's also the issue that it feels like an upper midcard feud despite being a world title feud because of Rock, Brock, HHH, Undertaker and Michaels all being around at different points. But then, you get into the problems with the angle itself. One of the biggest annoyances to me is that Jericho always interrupts Punk by Titantron and gives these canned promos that are missing something and needlessly complicate what should be a simple feud. I don't understand why Jericho hasn't interrupted by standing at the entrance ramp and cutting the promo in front of a live crowd. Then, there's the subject matter. Who cares if Punk's dad was an alcoholic, or if Punk takes a drink? Sure, Punk's motivation is clear, but why should fans care? I fully expect Jericho to have some expose post-Extreme Rules of Punk eating beer battered fish in that pub, or ordering vodka penne, or eating angel hair pasta in a white wine sauce. Jericho caring so much about this stuff is SO over the top that it's not really plausible. It feels too scripted and too much like a television story, and not enough like a wrestling angle. Also, I find it humorous that Jericho said for months that when he returned, he'd have a completely new character, and that turned out to just be "I'm the same guy, only with a shiny jacket." I don't even think he needed to reinvent himself, but his return has really been a mess. I think he has spent too much time as a heel. For whatever reason, he never gets pushed the same way as a babyface that he does as a heel, despite having a much stronger audience connection when he's a babyface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 It seems like there was a different idea for Jericho's return, with the misleading vignettes and the whole not talking and pretending to be an over-the-top babyface (which I thought was great), but the call was made at some point to scrap all that and just do a typical WWE by-the-numbers overbooked soap opera feud with Punk, with Jericho turning into a boring Kane-like heel along the way. On the bright side, their Mania match was great and I'll be shocked if the street fight on Sunday doesn't deliver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 The best in the world stuff is fine, though it should really go without saying since that's what the world title is supposed to symbolize. And all the crap about alcohol wasn't too bad when Jericho was just using it as an excuse to hit Punk in the head with a whiskey bottle. The angle went off the rails when it became apparent that Jericho's primary motivation really was to make Punk start drinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Then, there's the subject matter. Who cares if Punk's dad was an alcoholic, or if Punk takes a drink? Sure, Punk's motivation is clear, but why should fans care? I fully expect Jericho to have some expose post-Extreme Rules of Punk eating beer battered fish in that pub, or ordering vodka penne, or eating angel hair pasta in a white wine sauce. Jericho caring so much about this stuff is SO over the top that it's not really plausible. It feels too scripted and too much like a television story, and not enough like a wrestling angle.Has any angle based around substance abuse ever been any good? Every single example I can think of have all sucked, hard. Also, I find it humorous that Jericho said for months that when he returned, he'd have a completely new character, and that turned out to just be "I'm the same guy, only with a shiny jacket." I don't even think he needed to reinvent himself, but his return has really been a mess.It's not like he's got creative control. Maybe he had an idea for a great new character (those opening non-speaking "promos" seemed to be heading in that direction) but then it got canned. Then again, this is a guy who strongly insisted that he wasn't returning until he actually did, so it's not like he doesn't have a history of fucking with the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Lawler/Jake was good and had a great payoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 You're literally the only person I've ever talked to who had a single kind word to say about that feud. Most people hated it, and it certainly didn't draw any money or lead to anything else down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 What's good about them?Two guys both claim to be the best in the World, and this obviously leads to an issue between the two. How, in theory, is that a bad idea? C'mon, they're not even the two best guys in their company. Look at how simple and effective Brock vs. Cena was. You don't need a huge amount of motivation in wrestling because the conflict is already inherent. Just cut some promos and do a wrestling angle. Punk can't act and Jericho can't cut serious promos. They'd have to be great promos to make this sort of bad writing work, but they're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Has any angle based around substance abuse ever been any good? Every single example I can think of have all sucked, hard. To what extent would the Eddie Guerrero/Brock Lesnar feud be considered a substance abuse-based angle? It was definitely part of it. It's not like he's got creative control. Maybe he had an idea for a great new character (those opening non-speaking "promos" seemed to be heading in that direction) but then it got canned. Then again, this is a guy who strongly insisted that he wasn't returning until he actually did, so it's not like he doesn't have a history of fucking with the internet. I don't know what he has now, but he had a big hand in the direction of his gimmick and angles in his last run with the company. He doesn't have creative control, but he's known to get more actively involved in his booking than most wrestlers, and I'd be surprised if that's changed. If he was planning something that got shot down, I'd be curious as to what it was, and why we got this instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 If nothing else, last night's performance should put Warrior/Sid comparisons to rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Yes. I'll eat those words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 You're literally the only person I've ever talked to who had a single kind word to say about that feud. Most people hated it, and it certainly didn't draw any money or lead to anything else down the line. Who are most people? It was a mid card feud and was not suppose to draw money. It was something to fill up time and did. The blow off match on Raw was a nice moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Punk can't act and Jericho can't cut serious promos. They'd have to be great promos to make this sort of bad writing work, but they're not.I'd say they're better promos than, oh, at least 95% of wrestlers in the business today. Punk can act and Jericho can cut serious promos, we've seen them do it before. I think the material is just defeating them here. This is the sort of stupid soap-opera Russo bullshit which has zero impact on the matches themselves. There's no way that "I am taunting you for you family's drug problems" can be properly expressed or articulated by two guys fighting in the ring. Who are most people?Everyone I've ever heard mention it in any way. It even got a Wrestlecrap induction. Most people considered everything Jake did in '96 to be pretty embarrassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Jake vs Lawler was embarrasing on every level. Terrible matches, bad promos, Lawler being a dick pouring actual alchohol into Jake's throat. Just bad stuff coming from guys who should do much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Punk can't act and Jericho can't cut serious promos. They'd have to be great promos to make this sort of bad writing work, but they're not.I'd say they're better promos than, oh, at least 95% of wrestlers in the business today. Punk can act and Jericho can cut serious promos, we've seen them do it before. I think the material is just defeating them here. This is the sort of stupid soap-opera Russo bullshit which has zero impact on the matches themselves. There's no way that "I am taunting you for you family's drug problems" can be properly expressed or articulated by two guys fighting in the ring. Who are most people?Everyone I've ever heard mention it in any way. It even got a Wrestlecrap induction. Most people considered everything Jake did in '96 to be pretty embarrassing. When has Jericho ever cut a good serious promo? I don't think he's capable of it with his delivery. Punk may have mastered the various facial expressions you're supposed to make in WWE, but I think it's a far cry to claim he can act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Yeah, his "I'm angry while standing in the ring watching this video recap of my current feud on the Titantron" face is mid-range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 I guess I'm in the minority but I've enjoyed the Jericho/Punk stuff. I thought the sobriety test angle was great. Probably helps that they're two of my favorite wrestlers and I enjoy most of everything they do. Jericho is a dick and a hypocrite, he's honed in on a potential weakness in his opponent to get in his head. That's what heels do, it's not exactly complicated stuff. Johnny Ace has been fucking with Punk for like 9 months now, do we need to ask why he's interjecting himself too? And seriously, if Punk can't act and Jericho can't cut serious promos, who can? Jericho's great run in 08-09 where he won back to back Wrestler of the Year awards in the observer was based on him being serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 When has Jericho ever cut a good serious promo? I don't think he's capable of it with his delivery.He had several during his feud with the Rock back in 01/02. Punk may have mastered the various facial expressions you're supposed to make in WWE, but I think it's a far cry to claim he can act.Well, we are grading on the sliding scale of how well wrestlers can act. But I thought Punk has always been decent enough for his spot. Once again, I think it comes down to this material simply being a bad idea to write into a wrestling feud in the first place. "You are haunted by the personal demons of your immediate family!" isn't something that translates well in a storytelling medium which mostly involves one dude punching another dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Jake vs Lawler was embarrasing on every level. Terrible matches, bad promos, Lawler being a dick pouring actual alchohol into Jake's throat. Just bad stuff coming from guys who should do much better.Not really, Summerslam was a decent enough match and the Raw match was only a few seconds. Most people considered everything Jake did in '96 to be pretty embarrassing. Especially his "embarrassing" performence at King of the Ring 96. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Apparently Brock wasn't too happy with Cena's promo after the match at Extreme Rules thinking he got double crossed. If they hadn't done the HHH angle, I would have though he would be done. I wonder how they calmed him down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Apparently Brock wasn't too happy with Cena's promo after the match at Extreme Rules thinking he got double crossed. If they hadn't done the HHH angle, I would have though he would be done. I wonder how they calmed him down? Meltzer says that is a Pillman work and only part of it is true. He did not say which part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.