Best and worst mid/lower card stables?

[JerryvonKramer]

People will talk about Paul Jones's army here for best, but honestly, what do people think of Right to Censor? They were pretty well booked and positioned as a mid-level stable and threat I thought. The distinct look with the shirt and tie really gave the group a cohesion that made it feel more than just a place to stick random midcarders. I also liked the thematic continuity of Val Venis and the Godfather both turning their back on sex-related gimmicks. And has Steven Richards ever been more effective in a heel role?

 

As for worst, the Million Dollar Corporation from around 94-5 sort of time springs to mind. Just a terrible No Man's Land of mediocre talent and it didn't even make sense: the manager got most if not all of the heat, but there'd never be a real payoff because DiBiase couldn't take a bump. Did the Million Dollar Corporation do anything meaningful at all in it's near two-year run? Spirit Squad also have to be "down there".

 

I expect to see Raven's Nest / Flock mentioned in both conversations.

[flyonthewall2983]

I liked that in '97 WWE, at one point half the talent were stables. Hart Foundation, NOD, the Boriquas and the biker stable. Don't know if there was more, but that roster seemed pretty full of them at that point.

[artDDP]

I remember Ted DiBiase's Corporation being fed to The Undertaker during the year 1995, probably just to keep him busy during the Diesel experiment.

[Dylan Waco]

The best is the FBI which was consistently entertaining for it's entire run, peaking with Smothers/Rich/Guido.

 

Varsity Club is fondly remembered. Very fun gimmick that I thought worked slightly better on paper, but still a very fun act that could have perhaps "graduated" up the card.

 

I always liked Jimmy Hart's WWF stable as a solid combination of guys with the right managerial fit.

 

Tons of bad ones, my top pick might be The Oddities

[jdw]

The only good thing about the Flock was Bruce Mitchell's comments about it which freaked out Dave Scherer so much that either he (or one of his sock puppets) had a hilarious thread about it on rsp-w.

 

John

[cm funk]

I always loved Raven's Nest/Flock. He worked perfectly in the role. I will say that the Flock was much more streamlined with the members fitting Raven's image, the Nest was often rotating and random, some working better than others. What would be the reasons for naming them among the worst stables?

[cm funk]

The Stud Stable in WCW was pretty great.

 

Dungeon of Doom could probably fit into both the best and worst categories. Sometimes they were really good and booked well (Jimmy Hart turning heel, Giant, teasing Luger joining early 96 before they just turned it into a rogues gallery for Hogan, later period with the Horsemen feud when I think the roster was Hart, Sullivan, Meng, Barbarian, Hugh Morrus and Konnan) other times it was really awful.

[jdw]

I always loved Raven's Nest/Flock. He worked perfectly in the role. I will say that the Flock was much more streamlined with the members fitting Raven's image, the Nest was often rotating and random, some working better than others. What would be the reasons for naming them among the worst stables?

Lodi was entertaining.

 

I thought most of the rest of the Flock was a deep inside joke by Scotty that wasn't terribly funny. The Riggs storyline was a weaker, more openly homoerotic rehash of the Raven-Dreamer feud. The "edgy" just came across as watered down, weak WCW stuff. The feuds with Benoit and Page... eh. The break up of the Flock was obvious stuff seen a mile away, and Saturn turning on him was much more interesting when it was Rick Steiner turning on Kevin Sullivan.

 

I don't mind mediocre mid card groups. They help fill space. Just thought the Flock was weak and uninteresting at the time. Scotty was trying to hard.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

The Stud Stable in WCW was pretty great.

 

Dungeon of Doom could probably fit into both the best and worst categories. Sometimes they were really good and booked well (Jimmy Hart turning heel, Giant, teasing Luger joining early 96 before they just turned it into a rogues gallery for Hogan, later period with the Horsemen feud when I think the roster was Hart, Sullivan, Meng, Barbarian, Hugh Morrus and Konnan) other times it was really awful.

I'd argue the Dungeon of Doom weren't really a mid-card stable but a main event one. Kevin Sullivan was weirdly high on the card for ages. Arguably number 2 or 3 heel at that time behind Flair (after Vader had left).

[Matt D]

I really do love the York Foundation.

[Loss]

Varsity Club all the way.

[El-P]

I really do love the York Foundation.

Yeah, they really were the insurance that on any WCW card in 1991 you get some solid little TV matches. It's too bad they were basically nothing but low-midcarders who really didn't went anywhere, but York Foundation = good segments.

 

As a Raven fan, the Nest was much more entertaining than the Flock, but I enjoyed the wink-wink aspect of the Flock too, and loved the Raven vs Saturn feud and payoff in a super match that's one of my favourite of 1998.

 

Varsity Club was cool. Million Dollar Corporation was dull and depressing.

[FLIK]

Never saw Raven in ECW since we didn't get it out here on the West Coast until the TNN days so WCW was my first exsposure to him and him & the Flock were by far my fave wrestlers in high school. Lodi was actually the first screen name I ever used online for any length of time.

 

The Riggs storyline was a weaker, more openly homoerotic rehash of the Raven-Dreamer feud.

I'm blanking on a few details but wasn't Dreamer/Raven built around them being child hood friends who ended up hating each other over Beulah and the Riggs angle was built around Raven wanting to recruit Riggs, injuring his eye, then kidnaping and brain washing him. Don't get the comparison thear, are you confusing it with the DDP feud?

[MikeCampbell]

The 1994 Stud Stable in WCW were awesome!

 

The Hangmen 3 in ROH was pretty bad.

[Coffey]

Kaientai was pretty bad. Not because of their talent level, as the talent was there, but how WWF used them. Racial stereotypes were flying everywhere, they never really got to work...

 

"I choppy choppy your pee pee!"

[jdw]

The Riggs storyline was a weaker, more openly homoerotic rehash of the Raven-Dreamer feud.

I'm blanking on a few details but wasn't Dreamer/Raven built around them being child hood friends who ended up hating each other over Beulah

Raven was unhappy that his "close childhood friend" grew up and got some pussy rather than stay with Raven.

 

 

and the Riggs angle was built around Raven wanting to recruit Riggs, injuring his eye, then kidnaping and brain washing him.

Riggs was a pretty boy that Raven wanted to join his "flock" of low life street hustler types. Riggs put off Raven's advances, and had to pay for it.

 

That was the funny thing about Scherer going batshit over Bruce pointing out Raven was telling storylines with underlying homoerotic themes: after Bruce wrote it, Scotty told Wade the equiv of "Someone actually gets it."

 

Granted, the Bingo Hall Circle Jerk wouldn't get it, and Scherer as the King of the Bingo Hall Circle Jerk *really* didn't want to get it. And Scotty might not now even want to cop to it. But at the time, he did and it was pretty funny.

 

 

Don't get the comparison thear, are you confusing it with the DDP feud?

Nope.

 

John

[jdw]

Here's the section from a longer piece of Bruce's called "Adult Contemporary", published January 10, 1998 in Torch #474.

 

 

* * * * * * * * *

 

And then there's wrestling's answer to the class showoff, Dustin Runnels. It would be easier for the audience to buy Goldust-Sex Pervert if the gimmick hadn't been watered down by Dustin going from Gay to Pretend-Gay to Family Man to Cuckold to Pervert so quickly. Runnels's "I'll do anything" attitude is emblematic of the lack of discipline in the WWF's approach. The WWF has to know what is pushing the envelope and what is offensive and unimaginative. Marc Mero punching Sable in the face would get a reaction. So did Goldust in black face. Both are bad ideas, and it takes discipline to know why.

 

Actually, Goldust's attention-seeking gimmicks seem more like a guy who based his act on a couple of porno mags he bought on his one visit to the adult book store than a real life pervert, and the audience seems to sense it.

 

Interestingly, the most perverse, unsettling, subversive gimmick in the sport isn't in the WWF or even ECW. It's in WCW, the same promotion that Eric Bischoff claims is toning down on-camera misbehavior. Raven's Nest, to put it bluntly, ought to be renamed Raven's Rough Trade. The clues aren't subtle. This All-Male-Revue features Raven, who had the classic butch/fem abusive relationship with Stevie Richards, so much that the Richards character went back to submissively serving Raven after declaring his supposed independence. Raven constantly talks of his alienation and rejection from his parents, without being specific as to the reason. Everyone in the Nest vies for Raven's love. Saturn didn't steal his look from Taz, he took it from Biker Boys magazine. Lodi's look is straight out of every college gay bar in America. Hammer, whose name fits this concept perfectly, comes right from the peep shows. Nice fishnet, too. Billy Kidman has got the Bus Station Runaway look down cold.

 

Why do you think Raven wanted to "recruit" Scotty Riggs, whose only distinguishing characteristic is he looks like an (American) male model (and Eric Bischoff)? Tellingly, the climactic moment in Raven's courtship came when Raven DDT'd Riggs unconscious, then lamented damaging his face and claimed to feel his "pain." Hammer then carried Riggs out lovingly over his shoulder. What did Raven and his boys do to Riggs, exactly, to get him to embrace his true nature? And the Nest doesn't like Chris Benoit because he's simply too straight.

 

Compared to that, Goldust and Luna are just wanna-bes. If the WWF wants to succeed in the alternative "contemporary" world, they'll have to sweat the details as carefully as Raven did. The WWF can take heart. Every revolution in pop culture first comes with howls from those who don't know they've been passed by. With their new direction, the WWF has offended the right people.

 

* * * * * * * * *

 

Looks like Google Groups still has the RSPW threads:

 

The Torch and Bruce Mitchell (Thread #1)

 

The Torch and Bruce Mitchell (Thread #2)

 

Hayabu2354 is of course one of Scherer's various AOL Sockos. I'd forgotten that "Busa" was a running joke of ours for a couple of years, up there with my favorite Pauley73 who I need to eternally thank Scherer for helping me become friends with Cheetah.

 

You'll need to hit "expand quoted text" to see what's being responded to. It is rather long. And if you think I've ever been an asshole on these boards, I was a much bigger asshole back in my early 30s... but at least in this one it was aimed at a jerkoff.

 

John

[Victator]

Varsity Club all the way.

I agree completely.

 

The Jersey Triad was underrated. DDP and Bam Bam even had a cool tag finisher, The Greetings Piledriver/Diamond Cutter combo.

[Johnny Guitar]

The only good thing about the Flock was Bruce Mitchell's comments about it which freaked out Dave Scherer so much that either he (or one of his sock puppets) had a hilarious thread about it on rsp-w.

 

John

 

I always loved Raven's Nest/Flock. He worked perfectly in the role. I will say that the Flock was much more streamlined with the members fitting Raven's image, the Nest was often rotating and random, some working better than others. What would be the reasons for naming them among the worst stables?

Lodi was entertaining.

 

I thought most of the rest of the Flock was a deep inside joke by Scotty that wasn't terribly funny. The Riggs storyline was a weaker, more openly homoerotic rehash of the Raven-Dreamer feud. The "edgy" just came across as watered down, weak WCW stuff. The feuds with Benoit and Page... eh. The break up of the Flock was obvious stuff seen a mile away, and Saturn turning on him was much more interesting when it was Rick Steiner turning on Kevin Sullivan.

 

I don't mind mediocre mid card groups. They help fill space. Just thought the Flock was weak and uninteresting at the time. Scotty was trying to hard.

 

John

 

 

The Riggs storyline was a weaker, more openly homoerotic rehash of the Raven-Dreamer feud.

I'm blanking on a few details but wasn't Dreamer/Raven built around them being child hood friends who ended up hating each other over Beulah

Raven was unhappy that his "close childhood friend" grew up and got some pussy rather than stay with Raven.

 

 

and the Riggs angle was built around Raven wanting to recruit Riggs, injuring his eye, then kidnaping and brain washing him.

Riggs was a pretty boy that Raven wanted to join his "flock" of low life street hustler types. Riggs put off Raven's advances, and had to pay for it.

 

That was the funny thing about Scherer going batshit over Bruce pointing out Raven was telling storylines with underlying homoerotic themes: after Bruce wrote it, Scotty told Wade the equiv of "Someone actually gets it."

 

Granted, the Bingo Hall Circle Jerk wouldn't get it, and Scherer as the King of the Bingo Hall Circle Jerk *really* didn't want to get it. And Scotty might not now even want to cop to it. But at the time, he did and it was pretty funny.

 

 

Don't get the comparison thear, are you confusing it with the DDP feud?

Nope.

 

John

 

I thought The Flock were great. Whilst I can see it now. The homoerotic subtext completley flew over my head at the time. I was more focused on the drug aspect of the gimmick.

 

 

The Varisty Club was great! It made no sense . A bunch of college jocks following a devil worshipper, but hey!

 

Actually speaking of Sullivan. He might get alot of comments in this thread about The Varisty Club or The Dungeon of Doom. But The Slaughterhouse (Sullivan, Cactus & Buzz Sawyer) needs some love.

[Victator]

Never really thought of the Nest/Flock as a true group. It was always Raven, a general (Saturn/Kanyon) and a bunch of cannon fodder.

[Mr Wrestling X]

For some reason I immediately think of the Oddities, who were pretty awful. It's interesting because Kurrgan (who was a member of the Oddities) was also a part of a mid card stable - the Truth Commision - that did have some potential. (largely due to their mouthpiece - Don "Cyrus" Callis)

 

I guess I'm also with the majority who hated the Dungeon, particulary Ed Leslie's rotten "Zodiac" gimmick. The Union was a pretty cool stable in the late 1990's and even though Mick Foley was wading in and out of the main event, the majority of it's members were working the lower and mid cards and that's why I've brought them up here.

 

I think that one of the best mid card stables in recent memory has to be the original FBI (JT Smith, Tommy Rich, Little Guido, Big Guido, Tracy Smothers, etc) because they found a way to make one of the most ludicrous comedy gimmicks work, whilst still managing to be taken seriously as wrestlers.

[Victator]

The FBI is one of the best groups ever if only for consistency. Every single version was good up to the WWE (Guido, Palumbo and Stambolli).

[JerryvonKramer]

Any views on Right to Censor?

[Log]

I think RTC were the exact right type of heel for the time. Everyone was pushing things edgier and edgier. It made sense to have a heel that was the antithesis of all that. They nailed it all, from the dress to the truly annoying theme music.

[Jingus]

RTC usually had pretty shitty matches, though. Stevie is the most inconsistent wrestler in the world, Godfather sucked, Venis was bland, and Buchanan always seemed like he had a lot of athletic potential but was never able to use it properly. In a particularly workrate-heavy era in the company, they somehow never had a match which I can even remember later.