Ring of Honor Wrestling

[Migs]

It is like a chicken/egg thing with the money piece. Truly can't measure until he's up against those guys and then you check the effects of this, like return attendance, etc. I think he has the potential to, but its hard (for me) to say they should build the entire thing around him right this minute.

 

One point I forgot was the pinfall he got on Cole this fall in the Champions vs. All-Stars match - and in ROH wins and loses count and are used in storylines to elevate guys (a couple years back they did this with Hansen and Lethal). And sure enough - last night at the tapings, Castle is out to interrupt O'Reilly and Adam Cole with just that.

 

AND at the taping (not spoiling results, just talking points) - the only guy who got over crowd-wise on the Bullet Club was Castle, so maybe we see him elevated and going over Cole if/when Cole departs.

 

Migs - agree, although I actually think it was pretty smart to go to them third as kind of a semi-main after the first two matches. The crowd was buzzing and the atmosphere was great but by the end of the Liger/Silas match they needed Castle.

 

That's probably a fair point. They have sort of used Castle as a way to get the crowd jacked early in the show, successfully. Perhaps they're a bit leery about moving him out of that role.

 

If the TV is pushing toward Castle v. the Bullet Club, then I am all in and going to try to watch ROH TV weekly again.

[bradhindsight]

I liked that they showed the first taped episode from the post-Final Battle tapings a couple weeks ago. Showing the Bucks/Scurll-Ospreay tag match is another great way to introduce those guys to the syndicated audience.

 

I'm really disappointed in the Cody Rhodes/Bullet Club thing though. That is so deflating after his work at Final Battle and at the tapings.

 

Now we have O'Reilly/Lethal vs. Cole/Cody in Atlanta - which will be a solid TV main event i'm sure, but super heel Cody felt almost fresh. More BC stuff just feels tacked on. A miss imo.

[Migs]

Yeah, I really liked that first post-Final Battle TV episode. Elevated Castle, set up Fish as a potential challenger for O'Reilly, good six man as a main event. I like the tournament building to the title shot too (as someone who was an indy nerd when all those guys were on their way up, I'm probably the target audience for that).

 

Agreed that Cody joining the Bullet Club makes him less interesting. They had a shot to make him a real heel, but aligning him with the Bullet Club puts him in that same tweener role that the rest of the Club.

[shoe]

I'm with you all about Cody and Bullet Club. I'd love Cody aligning himself with Sullivan. It's an angle that has a history.

[sek69]

Was there anything to the rumors that Steve Corino's Performance Center visit was at least in part a move to try to gain more power in ROH? I remember hearing he was making a power play and the PC trip was a way to send a message that he has options if they turn him down.

[Memphis Mark]

Was there anything to the rumors that Steve Corino's Performance Center visit was at least in part a move to try to gain more power in ROH? I remember hearing he was making a power play and the PC trip was a way to send a message that he has options if they turn him down.

 

I guess they turned Corino down, However , Christopher Daniels has signed new ROH contract. Daniels is 46 years old and cannot have much more ring time left in his body. The rumor is that Daniels is on a path to take ROH ' s booking. Anybody else hear that rumor ?

 

Another rumor making the rounds is that BJ Whitmer is in the mix to replace Corino on color. I would slide Colt Cabana in to Corino 's spot.

[Memphis Mark]

Does anyone know who ROH has under contract ? I know that the Young Bucks , Jay Lethal , Silas Young , Marty Scurll , Will Ospreay and Christopher Daniels have signed in the past few months. ROH add Shane Taylor and Punisher Martinez to the roster. Jay White is on loan from NJPW . Outside of those guys I think everyone else is a free agent or has an expiring contract . Anyone have an insight into what is really going on with the ROH talent situation ?

[SirEdger]

From what's been circulating online, Kyle O'Reilly & Bobby Fish still haven't signed a new deal and O'Reilly could drop the title at Wrestle Kingdom to Adam Cole. War Machine have apparently handed over their notice as well. To take with a grain of salt though as I haven't seen this pop up anywhere else serious.

[Memphis Mark]

Bobby Fish resigned with ROH . Kyle O ' Reilly has not resign yet due to undisclosed personal issues.. I cannot see Raymond Rowe and Hanson getting a bigger money offer than ROH would offer them . I cannot see NXT offering them a big money deal , but you never know.

[Migs]

Very interested to see where they go with Cole back on top. Based on the TV, it seems like we might not be that far from Cole v. Castle for the title, which would be pretty cool.

[Memphis Mark]

Cole 's deal runs out in April . I wonder if he is just a transitional champ . All of the " insiders ' claimed that both Cole and O 'Reilly are headed to the WWE . I believe it when I see it. If Cole really does leave I guess Castle would be next in line for the belt. Who else could fill in spot within the next four months ?

[Migs]

Cole 's deal runs out in April . I wonder if he is just a transitional champ . All of the " insiders ' claimed that both Cole and O 'Reilly are headed to the WWE . I believe it when I see it. If Cole really does leave I guess Castle would be next in line for the belt. Who else could fill in spot within the next four months ?

 

The matches they seem to be building to based on TV would be:

Cole v. Castle

Cole v. Fish

Cole v. the winner of Decades of Excellence tournament

 

I don't see Fish as a guy they're going to as a long-term main eventer.

 

I haven't checked out spoilers for the tournament, but it looks to me like they're moving to push Daniels in a "one last run" deal. I actually could see him winning the belt, turning heel again, and being champ for a bit.

[WrestlingPower]

I would much prefer a Daniels title win than Castle. Daniels in a way seems kind of old news but he doesn't seem to have the "go away" heat that Jerry Lynn had when they put the belt on him.

 

I'm heavily considering going to the ROH show while in Orlando but Castle is a big turn off for me and just the chance that he might win the belt there is enough to where I will most likely walk out rather than watch that match if it's the main event.

[WrestlingPower]

So I assume some here have seen the following article:

http://wrestlingwithwords.com/roh-deforestation/

 

I wanted to comment on it. First I don't consider ROH a "poor product" by any means. Stagnant, homogenized, maybe but not poor. "Atrocious" front office, I'm not one to say but this seems a bit harsh. Yes their booking has been questionable for years now, but at least seems to have stabilized since Jim Cornette left. Given that the front office and the booker in question seem non-negotiable issues for the company, to me we should be done with wasting energy complaining about these items. They are what they are, they aren't our decisions to make, so either support them or don't.

 

Has ROH lost its purpose? I'd argue the purpose has changed. Have they lost what made them unique? Most definitely. At this point aside from giving guys a good number of well paid bookings, access to good opponents, and a possible entrée into Japan and a higher profile for other indies, their purpose seems to be to generate a profit for the parent company. They leverage their Japan connections and have ramped up their merch business etc. as avenues to a profit. So the purpose changed from one with heart & drive to a more business model.

 

I agree with what this guy wrote about O'Reilly 100%. To me though ACH & Cedric had a certain ceiling. There's no doubt they were massively misused but I never thought they were above like TV title level anyway. You could argue the bookers missed the boat on making that title like it's own division but now with the UK guys in and being in the title picture right away, maybe they have rectified that situation.

 

To me the most prophetic statement in this article is "Young, exciting, talented performers leaving the company in waves, while the same guys we’ve watched for years continue to do the same thing for years."

 

THIS! This hits the nail right on the head. It seems the booking philosophy has been based on the Japanese hierarchical system where guys have to work their way up. Whether that works in this day & age where performers have higher aspirations is probably a big no. In the early 2000s guys built their names on the indies over like 5-10 years and would go to ROH to stay there for years & build a career. Nowadays once a guy gets a little buzz on him, he's looking to go to WWE within like 5 years of his debut. ROH just isn't going to have hot guys for more than a couple years. To me the bigger issue though is ROH may have been loyal to a fault to some guys. If they had been more willing to do more frequent house cleaning of talent, all these guys would have had more opportunities to possibly be used better in their short time frames. It's just totally not set up for something like that to work.

[bradhindsight]

I appreciate your candidness on Castle and I think it's refreshing that across our large swatch of wrestling fandom, there are people on opposite sides of the fence - even for the proverbial online/fan favorites.

 

What about his work turns you off from wanting to see him live?

[bradhindsight]

I think they could actually tell a pretty good story with Daniels coming up short at the 15th anniversary. To your point on the WWW article (which I have not read yet, but find the thesis of someone comparing SBG ROH to 2003 ROH laughable given their very different missions), Daniels is one of those "guys we see that keep doing the same thing". There is no buzz to him being a transitional champ, highlighted more so by how often the belt has changed hands in the past 6 months.

[Migs]

So I assume some here have seen the following article:

http://wrestlingwithwords.com/roh-deforestation/

 

I wanted to comment on it. First I don't consider ROH a "poor product" by any means. Stagnant, homogenized, maybe but not poor. "Atrocious" front office, I'm not one to say but this seems a bit harsh. Yes their booking has been questionable for years now, but at least seems to have stabilized since Jim Cornette left. Given that the front office and the booker in question seem non-negotiable issues for the company, to me we should be done with wasting energy complaining about these items. They are what they are, they aren't our decisions to make, so either support them or don't.

 

Has ROH lost its purpose? I'd argue the purpose has changed. Have they lost what made them unique? Most definitely. At this point aside from giving guys a good number of well paid bookings, access to good opponents, and a possible entrée into Japan and a higher profile for other indies, their purpose seems to be to generate a profit for the parent company. They leverage their Japan connections and have ramped up their merch business etc. as avenues to a profit. So the purpose changed from one with heart & drive to a more business model.

 

I agree with what this guy wrote about O'Reilly 100%. To me though ACH & Cedric had a certain ceiling. There's no doubt they were massively misused but I never thought they were above like TV title level anyway. You could argue the bookers missed the boat on making that title like it's own division but now with the UK guys in and being in the title picture right away, maybe they have rectified that situation.

 

To me the most prophetic statement in this article is "Young, exciting, talented performers leaving the company in waves, while the same guys we’ve watched for years continue to do the same thing for years."

 

THIS! This hits the nail right on the head. It seems the booking philosophy has been based on the Japanese hierarchical system where guys have to work their way up. Whether that works in this day & age where performers have higher aspirations is probably a big no. In the early 2000s guys built their names on the indies over like 5-10 years and would go to ROH to stay there for years & build a career. Nowadays once a guy gets a little buzz on him, he's looking to go to WWE within like 5 years of his debut. ROH just isn't going to have hot guys for more than a couple years. To me the bigger issue though is ROH may have been loyal to a fault to some guys. If they had been more willing to do more frequent house cleaning of talent, all these guys would have had more opportunities to possibly be used better in their short time frames. It's just totally not set up for something like that to work.

 

There are definitely more tragic things than Cedric Alexander in ROH.

 

But even though it seems we disagree about who ROH should push, there's definitely a lack of forward momentum for a lot of guys. It's way too easy to ignore ROH for six months and come back to find one angle has happened, and everyone is in the place they were before.

 

ROH is in a very weird place as "corporate" indy wrestling, particularly as WWE has embraced some stylistic similarities in the ring. They can't let the top of the card turn over constantly, so I understand the idea of relying on guys who are loyal, and frankly, guys who (for different reasons) have almost no shot of going to WWE. You don't want to shoot someone up the card and then have them signed away as they're ascending. But that unwillingness to change up the top of the card and move angles forward quickly essentially puts a company in the position ECW was in towards the end. (Pulling the trigger on Taz too late = pulling the trigger on O'Reilly too late? I don't enjoy O'Reilly that much, but they got very little out of crowning him, similar to how ECW got very little out of crowning Taz.) The booking is stale and you're basically relying on people enjoying the style in the ring.

 

But the thing is - ECW, with a better financial base, could have gone for a long time. They drew great crowds, even at the end, because people liked the style and had fun at the shows. Even with WWE co-opting parts of ECW's style and draining the uniqueness (just like has happened to ROH), they still had a loyal following who enjoyed the product. The booking was (almost) irrelevant. Of course, the company had a ceiling, but if the ceiling is profitable, the owners won't care. ROH is pretty smart about their touring - they don't burn out any city, which allows them to come back a couple of times a year to places and draw crowds that are there to enjoy the wrestling card (even if they might complain about the booking and not watch the TV).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that there's not much motivation for ROH to be creative. They do fine, and probably as well as they can do given the constraints. That it disappoints people who remember it's glory days isn't something that's going to change.

[WingedEagle]

I appreciate your candidness on Castle and I think it's refreshing that across our large swatch of wrestling fandom, there are people on opposite sides of the fence - even for the proverbial online/fan favorites.

 

What about his work turns you off from wanting to see him live?

 

He has an entrance that stands out and certainly a personality and charisma that is very unique for ROH, where characters and acts often seem more muted. Between the ropes, aside from a sneaky athleticism that shows up at times I haven't seen anything that has the look of a top act. When controlling his offense doesn't look particularly dangerous or have any unique flow or timing, while his selling doesn't seem to bring things to a new gear either. He very much comes across as the kind of role player that is important to a show because of his contrast with the roster, but I've yet to see anything suggesting any promise as a top act.

[Dylan Waco]

I was at the latest round of television tapings, and while I don't want to dismiss Tim's personal aversion to the idea of Dalton Castle as champ or top challenger, it's abundantly clear he's the most over person on the roster. I myself am a bit of a moderate on Castle. I enjoy him, think he's a unique act in a company that desperately needs them, and think he is a good (at times very good) wrestler. On the other hand he's never translated to me as a tip top guy, and the people who are blown away by him as a talent have never been able to convince me that he's all that special.

 

Having said that when you look at the landscape of ROH, it's hard to see who would be a better pick to win the title that isn't a tired retread, an overexposed act, or someone who is even more niche or problematic. The fact is that the roster is a sea of guy who are either entrenched figures with the company that aren't going anywhere but have basically run out of fresh things to do, or guys who have a limited shelf life with the company not because they all want to go to the WWE, but because they don't want to be locked in with ROH.

 

I myself have no problem with the idea of Daniels winning the title, and think he's preferable to Cole who is a dead letter, but it would feel like a stand pat move at best and I don't think that's good for ROH at this point. I could live with Fish even though I think he's got a bridesmaid vibe that is going to be hard to escape and he's not exactly a youth movement candidate. You have guys like Rowe, Hanson and Dijak who could be on the way out at any minute (I can't imagine Dijak will be long for the company if the Beyond ban holds). Cabana, Lethal, The Briscoes, Whitmer, Sabin, Shelley and Kazarian who all feel like old hat, and have really done everything there is for them to do with the promotion (you could really say the same thing for Fish and Daniels but I'm being generous). Rush, Ospreay, Scurll and Dragon Lee who all have either unique contracts that allow for opt outs, have been desperate to leave in the past, or could be called home at any point. I personally like The Rebellion and Kingdom in their spots, but I can't imagine anyone advocating a title run for any of them, and it would almost certainly be rejected. Shane Taylor and Punishiment Martinez could be groomed I guess, but they would be radical departures from the ROH norm as champ, and they certainly aren't ready. Silas Young and Adam Page are there I guess, but they'd need to be elevated before anyone could buy a title run. No one wants to see Beer City Bruiser or Bull James with the belt, and I only I want to see Cheeseburger with it. I guess they could strap Cody but god help us if they do.

 

I think the idea that the company can't get talent in or retain them because of the WWE is kind of amusing. The amount of fresh, interesting, independent talent who want to work there and would likely sign long deals is very large. The issue is that ROH would rather run camps and make cash off of that then bring people in with organic buzz, or utilize the guys they do bring in in effective ways. They occasionally debut guys with a big impact, but because their shows are taped the impact is almost always lessened. You don't have to believe guys like ACH, Dijak, Cedric, Rush, et. were all top guys to recognize that they weren't used terribly effectively. ROH has had first and best crack at guys like Gresham and Kincaid and has done nothing with them. Riddle used to train at the ROH dojo which is something almost no one talks about. The issues with best utilizing talent, scouting, et. are so obvious that it's hard to take seriously any argument that dismisses them.

 

One act I don't think you can let off the hook is The Young Bucks. Yes they are huge draws and wildly over, but they serve to undermine basically any serious storyline ROH throws at the them, because they want to be in the dominant heel stable that doesn't really have to put anyone over, while also pandering to the crowd to sell merch. I actually really respect the con, but I don't think it helps the shows at this point, at least not when there isn't an equal counterforce at play in the promotion.

 

ROH does still employ a lot of talented people, and as an a la carte product they can be really fun to watch. But there is almost no juice behind their storytelling, very little buzz behind the promotion at all, and the promotion desperately needs new blood to debut with big impact at virtually every level of the card. What you think of the office largely depends on your perspective, but I don't think it's unfair to criticize them for a lot of the things mentioned above without getting into personal issues, speculation, or things that people don't want to be made public.

[bradhindsight]

I think that post is a fantastic "State of ROH" address and your last paragraph is a perfect summation.

 

I've defended the camps before with the understanding that they want to see guys for a couple days, interview them, see their work ethic, etc, before making any kind of contractual commitment. But in today's environment that can't be the lone scouting tool. And one could very well state that what they've done AFTER people have gone through those camps is lacking. That goes back to talent evaluation (and communication, and follow-up).

 

I do think (and this is not in Dylan's piece, but a common sentiment on Twitter) it's slightly unfair to pan them for people leaving (Cedric, ACH, etc) while disregarding the people they brought in - Ospreay, Scurll, Dragon Lee, Cody (I know, I know but their reach is syndicated TV and he's a name, BULL JAMES (I'm just kidding - wtf, that one is so bad). Especially when a common complaint is roster staleness. They built TV around Scurll and Ospreay (episode 275, I'd wager their second best TV of 2016) even.

 

The non-exclusive contract issue and the provision around not being on FloSlam is going to be a barrier, but as Dylan said - there is talent out there that would have no problem agreeing. I completely get not wanting contracted talent to be on another company's paid-for streaming service. But I do think they can word things differently as a blanket ban on places like Beyond is bad PR for the company and disregarding their talent getting a following that tracks back to ROH. And those names I mentioned above do have short deals or opt-outs so it's a challenge to build/book around.

[bradhindsight]

Scurll/Gresham from this week was as flat on tape weeks later as it was live. Weird TV debut for Scurll where Gresham got a lot more than you'd think.

 

The main event is worth seeking out with KUSHIDA, Dragon Lee and Will Ospreay.

[WrestlingPower]

I appreciate your candidness on Castle and I think it's refreshing that across our large swatch of wrestling fandom, there are people on opposite sides of the fence - even for the proverbial online/fan favorites.

 

What about his work turns you off from wanting to see him live?

 

I guess the homoerotic undertones (overtones?) is a turn off to me but maybe that's not 100% what he's going for. I guess he's more Lanny Poffo turned up a few notches. I will totally admit that he's over and that Lord knows ROH needed someone fresh, over-the-top, and more charismatic than the majority of their roster when he came along but his version of "over the top" just doesn't appeal to me I guess. And despite these feelings as to whether I "get" what he's going for or not I guess I'm a bit surprised how over he's gotten with the fanbase. I still don't necessarily see him as someone they should headline with given the history of guys they've had in the title picture.

[WrestlingPower]

 

So I assume some here have seen the following article:

http://wrestlingwithwords.com/roh-deforestation/

 

I wanted to comment on it. First I don't consider ROH a "poor product" by any means. Stagnant, homogenized, maybe but not poor. "Atrocious" front office, I'm not one to say but this seems a bit harsh. Yes their booking has been questionable for years now, but at least seems to have stabilized since Jim Cornette left. Given that the front office and the booker in question seem non-negotiable issues for the company, to me we should be done with wasting energy complaining about these items. They are what they are, they aren't our decisions to make, so either support them or don't.

 

Has ROH lost its purpose? I'd argue the purpose has changed. Have they lost what made them unique? Most definitely. At this point aside from giving guys a good number of well paid bookings, access to good opponents, and a possible entrée into Japan and a higher profile for other indies, their purpose seems to be to generate a profit for the parent company. They leverage their Japan connections and have ramped up their merch business etc. as avenues to a profit. So the purpose changed from one with heart & drive to a more business model.

 

I agree with what this guy wrote about O'Reilly 100%. To me though ACH & Cedric had a certain ceiling. There's no doubt they were massively misused but I never thought they were above like TV title level anyway. You could argue the bookers missed the boat on making that title like it's own division but now with the UK guys in and being in the title picture right away, maybe they have rectified that situation.

 

To me the most prophetic statement in this article is "Young, exciting, talented performers leaving the company in waves, while the same guys we’ve watched for years continue to do the same thing for years."

 

THIS! This hits the nail right on the head. It seems the booking philosophy has been based on the Japanese hierarchical system where guys have to work their way up. Whether that works in this day & age where performers have higher aspirations is probably a big no. In the early 2000s guys built their names on the indies over like 5-10 years and would go to ROH to stay there for years & build a career. Nowadays once a guy gets a little buzz on him, he's looking to go to WWE within like 5 years of his debut. ROH just isn't going to have hot guys for more than a couple years. To me the bigger issue though is ROH may have been loyal to a fault to some guys. If they had been more willing to do more frequent house cleaning of talent, all these guys would have had more opportunities to possibly be used better in their short time frames. It's just totally not set up for something like that to work.

 

There are definitely more tragic things than Cedric Alexander in ROH.

 

But even though it seems we disagree about who ROH should push, there's definitely a lack of forward momentum for a lot of guys. It's way too easy to ignore ROH for six months and come back to find one angle has happened, and everyone is in the place they were before.

 

ROH is in a very weird place as "corporate" indy wrestling, particularly as WWE has embraced some stylistic similarities in the ring. They can't let the top of the card turn over constantly, so I understand the idea of relying on guys who are loyal, and frankly, guys who (for different reasons) have almost no shot of going to WWE. You don't want to shoot someone up the card and then have them signed away as they're ascending. But that unwillingness to change up the top of the card and move angles forward quickly essentially puts a company in the position ECW was in towards the end. (Pulling the trigger on Taz too late = pulling the trigger on O'Reilly too late? I don't enjoy O'Reilly that much, but they got very little out of crowning him, similar to how ECW got very little out of crowning Taz.) The booking is stale and you're basically relying on people enjoying the style in the ring.

 

But the thing is - ECW, with a better financial base, could have gone for a long time. They drew great crowds, even at the end, because people liked the style and had fun at the shows. Even with WWE co-opting parts of ECW's style and draining the uniqueness (just like has happened to ROH), they still had a loyal following who enjoyed the product. The booking was (almost) irrelevant. Of course, the company had a ceiling, but if the ceiling is profitable, the owners won't care. ROH is pretty smart about their touring - they don't burn out any city, which allows them to come back a couple of times a year to places and draw crowds that are there to enjoy the wrestling card (even if they might complain about the booking and not watch the TV).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that there's not much motivation for ROH to be creative. They do fine, and probably as well as they can do given the constraints. That it disappoints people who remember it's glory days isn't something that's going to change.

 

Totally agree with this and good point about ECW. I've kind of thought this for like 5 years now, it's a fun show but unless they bring in New Japan guys, nothing worth travelling to see or spending a bunch of money on. Even on occassion when I do make it to a show I wouldn't pay for anything better than like the $35 seats.

[Mad Dog]

The roster has been a constant source of frustration for me the last couple of years. I went to a show last summer and they had a 10 minute Beer City Bruiser vs. Cheeseburger match. Why? If you're running that in the middle of a house show, you have some serious issues with your roster. There are just so many guys out there that you could bring in who would fill out the cards nicely. Why not give someone like Sugar Dunkerton a shot? He has charisma and he's decent in the ring. I would be more interested in that than the millionth thing BJ Whitmer is doing that no one cares about.

[Grimmas]

ROH trailing so far behind on pushing women is a turn off too. Either don't have them or push them.