Magnum TA

[Blehschmidt]

Sitting watching the Horseman comp and I can't help but wonder how different the wrestling business could be had Magnum TA not gotten injured.

 

So I wanted to hear what you guys think.

 

What if Magnum TA didn't get injured? (Does Crockett still sell to Turner? Does Hogan still end up in WCW? Is WCW still alive?) Where do you see the career of Magnum and the other major players going if TA is still around?

[Loss]

Personally, I always thought Magnum TA's star potential was overrated because of the accident. I do think he would have been a star, but probably someone at the same level of a Barry Windham or Ron Garvin - Flair's opponent du jour. Luger and Sting coming along probably would have eventually overshadowed him regardless, and I think at the most, JCP still saw Flair as the franchise player and Magnum would have just had a cup of coffee on top. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

[El-P]

Agreed. Magnum may have been a big star in JCP in the mid-80's, but I don't see that translating into corporate WCW with all the commitees and bookers. I see him having a nice upper mid-card career in WCW a la Windham or Steamboat at best and being phased out in the early to mid-90's, probably out of the business as an active worker when Hogan shows up with his followers. Doesn't change a thing for WCW in the long haul.

[Mad Dog]

I think he would've gotten a title run in 1987 and maybe again in 1988.

 

I tend to agree with Loss though. I think we would've seen him start to get pushed down the card as Luger and and Sting rose up the cards. I think we would've seen one of those "WCW guys goes to WWF in the early 90s and was misused and didn't get over" type of runs too. I think as time went on he would've just settled into a mid-card, upper mid-card role.

[Mad Dog]

Agreed. Magnum may have been a big star in JCP in the mid-80's, but I don't see that translating into corporate WCW with all the commitees and bookers. I see him having a nice upper mid-card career in WCW a la Windham or Steamboat at best and being phased out in the early to mid-90's, probably out of the business as an active worker when Hogan shows up with his followers. Doesn't change a thing for WCW in the long haul.

I think he might've become a USWA/SMW/Global kind of regular in that 93-95 era. Then running a string of failures like the AWF before showing up for a Saturday Night/Main Event/Worldwide run in 96-98 in WCW again.

[JerryvonKramer]

Having just been through this period in some detail watching the PPVs and reading the WONs from this timeframe for the podcast, I do think you might be wrong Loss ... to an extent.

 

One thing that is painfully obvious by 1987 and early 1988 in JCP is that they are chronically lacking a star face (if you don't listen to the podcast, Chad and I spend some time on this in the first 10 minutes or so of the Bunkhouse Stampede 88 episode, including Meltzer's analysis from 87-8).

 

It's clear that Magnum TA was the only star babyface they had on the same level as Dusty. He probably would have won the title at Starrcade 86.

 

Luger and Sting come along later -- and there's no reason to think that either would have overshadowed Magnum until 1989 at the earliest (or in Luger's case mid-late 88).

 

1987 would have been Magnum's year. Dusty had to turn Nikita Koloff, and "America's Team" was replaced with "The Superpowers". Through a combination of poor booking, under-pushing, and a notable drop off in Nikita's work, by the end of 87 Nikita is just a shadow of his former self.

 

There's a question mark in what happened with Nikita over whether if Magnum hadn't gotten injured, the same thing would have happened.

 

i.e. Would Dusty have known how to position and push Magnum TA? Nikita seems to go from being US champ poised to become world champ to sliding down the card to TV-title level by early 88. All the fizz is gone, crowd don't really seem to care about him all that much anymore, and Nikita himself doesn't seem to care that much anymore. In 87, Dusty seems torn between pushing himself and trying to develop new babyfaces -- he took too long on pulling the trigger with Nikita.

 

I think Magnum TA was a bigger star than Nikita Koloff ever was. And he still gets massive pops in mid- and late-87 just walking out on a pair of crutches. Meltzer talks about JCP lacking "super faces" akin to a Hogan in this period. Magnum was that super face.

 

If Magnum goes over Flair at Starrcade 86, he could have spent the first 4-5 months of 87 as NWA champ with Flair and the Horsemen chasing.

 

By the time you get to GAB, you've got a Magnum, Dusty and Road Warriors vs. Horsemen feud going on. (so exactly what we got with Magnum there as world champ, instead of Nikita).

 

What would have been the net effect of this?

 

1. JCP would have had a better 87, let's say the Horsemen screw Magnum out of the belt mid-year and then you've got Magnum chasing Flair going into Starrcade and getting a second title run coming out of Starrcade 87 -- no reason to assume that wouldn't have got over huge.

 

2. No Garvin title run, which was widely seen at the time to damage the company.

 

3. No need for Dusty to keep pushing himself in 87 and early 88, which again was widely seen as damaging the company.

 

4. Can keep Nikita as a monster heel to run a Magnum vs. Nikita feud in 88 -- again no reason to believe that wouldn't have sold well.

 

5. Potential of a Magnum vs. Lex Luger feud too later in 88, which again should have been box office.

 

 

So all in all, JCP would have been in a better position by the time the Turner buyout, simply because they had another bankable star who wasn't Dusty. Probably quite a bit better.

 

 

----------------------------------

 

Does all that mean there's no buyout, no Hogan in WCW etc.?

 

I don't think so.

 

One of the things we discussed on another show (the Starrcade 87 one), was how Dusty's booking of individual shows and his inability to give us the sort of blow offs Vince always did in WWF, hurt JCP in certain regional markets.

 

For example, they ran Starrcade 87 in Chicago, which pissed off the fans in Greensboro. That show was custom built for the Road Warriors to win the World titles in their backyard. But instead we get a screwy Dusty finish, thereby pissing off the Chicago crowd. So now, instead of winning Chicago as a "JCP town", they've managed somehow to annoy both their hardcore local fans and those in a key market. This is to say nothing of the way the UWF buyout was handled both on tv and backstage.

 

ALSO, JCP overexpanded. They were running shows all over the country with no rhyme or reason. Show in Charlotte today, Oklaholma tomorrow, New York Friday, and LA next week. The plane fares, the costs of maintaining separate offices in Atlanta and Texas (and the one Charlotte), the transport costs etc. all of those things were out of control by 88.

 

Magnum TA might have delayed the Turner buyout, but with Dusty booking the way he did and Crockett mismanaging the nationalisation of the promotion on a colossal scale, I think it was inevitable that they would have.

 

I don't think Magnum would have been a game changer for them, but I do think they would have made more money with him than without him.

[Cox]

One thing worth asking is if Magnum would have stayed in WCW post-'88 after Dusty left. Dusty was one of Magnum's biggest friends in the office and it's possible Magnum would have followed Dusty out the door and to Florida, especially if he hadn't gotten the NWA title by that point.

[sek69]

One thing to consider is that Nikita's rapid not-giving-a-shit stemmed from his wife dying of cancer at the time, so even if he would have stayed a Russian monster heel he would have followed the same path.

[Victator]

There is a good chance Sting would not have been as big a star if Magnum had been able to keep wrestling. Or at the very least he would have been delayed a few years.

 

He only got his initial run with Flair because Micheal Hayes quit.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Magnum would have gone on to be a huge star either in NWA/ WCW or WWF. The guy had "it", man. A good looking dude in the tiniest of tiny pants who also came off as the baddest motherfucker alive. He had appeal to the chicks and the dudes in a way not a lot of guys have.

[JerryvonKramer]

One thing to consider is that Nikita's rapid not-giving-a-shit stemmed from his wife dying of cancer at the time, so even if he would have stayed a Russian monster heel he would have followed the same path.

Now this I did not know (or rather, I may know it somewhere in the back of my mind, but hadn't thought about it recently). Does anyone know the exact date this happened? Because on the podcast we've noticed a steep and quite rapid decline in both his work and his overall look by early 88.

 

Another thing I should have mentioned is that Magnum WAS positioned just before his accident to become the new company ace. There is no doubting this. Loss says that Flair was always going to be the franchise, but let's not forget that Flair was also a heel. You can't run a promotion with just a francise heel, you need a franchise babyface too. Magnum was that babyface for 86-7 and like Johnny Sorrow says there's no reason to think that he wouldn't have made it. Although I maintain that JCP's problems run deeper than simply not having a top face.

 

I think the question over whether JCP could have kept him is another good question -- a whole ton of guys jumped ship around this time. They lost Ray Traylor through simple mismanagement. The Rock 'n' roll Express bailed. The Powers of Pain bailed. Terry Taylor bailed. Most of the old UWF guys didn't last long. A lot of those losses to Vince might have been curbed if Dusty's booking and talent relations office had done a better job at trying to keep them. I think there's a lot of reasons to think that even if Magnum TA draws huge for JCP that he might end up in WWF and probably gets an IC title reign.

 

For our alternate universe who knows the knock on effects of a Magnum TA IC title reign in 89. You might not have had Ultimate Warrior, but a Magnum vs. Rude feud instead. Hard to say if someone like Curt Hennig may have been affected a year or so on from that, or even Bret Hart. This is the "butterfly effect" and a guy like Magnum has pretty big wings to flap.

[ohtani's jacket]

Ultimately it would have amounted to nothing. Hulk Hogan couldn't sustain the business past a certain point. Magnum wasn't going to do shit. Wrestling has a finite lifespan the same as everything else.

[Matt D]

Honestly, I just wonder what hilarious gimmick WWF would have given him?

 

I think they would have made him a trucker or a lumberjack.

[JerryvonKramer]

[JerryvonKramer]

Imagine Magnum TA had made it into the mid-90s and they repackaged him as a character based on Richard Burke (Tom Selleck) from Friends with Ivory in the Monica role and Steven Richards in the Ross role.

 

Or what if ...

 

During the Attitude Era around the time of the APA, Magnum TA was similarly a "detective for hire". Could have made that whole Corporate Ministry angle shorter with Magnum on the case.

[JerryvonKramer]

Wrestlemania 8 main event:

 

Hulk Hogan vs. Magnum TA, mustache vs. mustache match.

[King Solomon]

From what I heard Magnum was slated to win a an "I Quit' cage match from Nikita at Starrcade 86 getting the U.S. Title in the process. I think 87 wouldve been his year to get the NWA title. Imagine the buildup for that heading into Starrcade 87. I say hold the thing in Greensboro and make that the crowning moment of T.A.'S career. Nikita stays heel, Luger and Sting still rise up but T.A. is the top face with Sting getting the number 2 role. Luger coulda stayed heel where I feel he was better suited for.

[jdw]

There's lots of conflicting stories on what would have happened, including Starcade '86. Would it have been Flair-Maggie, or Maggie-Nikita? Who knows at this point as the car wreck has transformed reality into mythology.

 

I don't think Maggie would have been the guy to take JCP to the next level in their battle with Vince & Hogan. I don't really think nationally he would have been any bigger than Lex and Sting got, and look at the limitations of where they got JCP/WCW to. I also suspect that if Maggie blocked Sting/Lex, that one and/or both would have ended up in the WWF and been vastly bigger than they were in JCP/WCW... especially Sting. It's pretty funny given how much Vince invested in the Warrior that he would have been much better off grabbing Sting when the JCP/UWF merger happened.

 

Anyway, I'm in agreement with those in the thread who think the potential of Maggie has been totally overrated in the mythology since the crash.

 

John

[Moonsault Marvin]

I also suspect that if Maggie blocked Sting/Lex, that one and/or both would have ended up in the WWF and been vastly bigger than they were in JCP/WCW... especially Sting. It's pretty funny given how much Vince invested in the Warrior that he would have been much better off grabbing Sting when the JCP/UWF merger happened.

Assuming Sting even makes it to Wrestlemania 6 without blowing out his knee, the Hulkamaniacs would have resented him for beating Hogan just like they did Warrior. He gets the title just in time for a recession. His title run would underperform just like the Warrior's since Hogan will sabotage him by getting the program with the Earthquake, who was the only fresh heel WWF had left at the time. Vince still jobs him to Slaughter for his silly attempt to capitalize off the war. Sting settles into the upper mid card. Vince would have either got rid him during the steroid scandal or Sting would eventually jumped to WCW as Hogan's sidekick.

 

I don't think it would have mattered. Sting wasn't going to be a mega star either way.

[MikeCampbell]

It's been said before, that the plan for Starrcade '86 wasn't Magnum over Flair, it was Magnum over Nikita in an I Quit match, I'd imagine for the U.S. Title, but I guess it'd be possible to make it non-title since it was such a personal rivalry between them. I do think that Magnum would have eventually gotten the title from Flair, at Starrcade '87 at the latest, but where do they go from there?

 

JCP didn't have a lot of main event level heels, so I don't think TA would have had a whole lot to do with the strap once he got it. Rematches around the circuit with Flair, rekindle the feud with Nikita over the World Title, and what else?

[Matt D]

Sting wouldn't have held Vince up for a payoff at Summerslam 1991. Granted, I always find the idea of WCW getting Warrior after that way more interesting than Sting being in WWF in 1992.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well Meltzer suggested it in 88: why not turn Dusty heel?

 

Also Magnum vs. Lex

Magnum vs. Tully at main event level (why not?)

Magnum vs. Windham

 

And then depending on good booking and pushing:

 

Magnum vs. Steve Williams

Magnum vs. The Barbarian

Magnum vs. Big Bubba

[JerryvonKramer]

The other possibility is another alternate universe scenario, but if Crockett somehow got to keep DiBiase after the UWF buyout in 87.

 

Magnum vs. DiBiase would have been interesting too. That would certainly be a feud if he'd have gone to WWF ... in fact, I wonder what happens to Dusty's run if Magnum goes to WWF in 89.

[jdw]

It's been said before, that the plan for Starrcade '86 wasn't Magnum over Flair, it was Magnum over Nikita in an I Quit match, I'd imagine for the U.S. Title, but I guess it'd be possible to make it non-title since it was such a personal rivalry between them.

Again, in the 25+ years since the crash, there have been stories about it being Flair-Maggie as well. While not quite "How did David Von Erich die?" level of different stories, there have been both Flair-Maggie and Flair-Nikita out there over the years.

 

My more general point: I don't think Maggie would ever have been "Flair's Heir" nor "JCP's Hogan". I think the mythology overplays how popular he would have been nationally.

 

John

[jdw]

I also suspect that if Maggie blocked Sting/Lex, that one and/or both would have ended up in the WWF and been vastly bigger than they were in JCP/WCW... especially Sting. It's pretty funny given how much Vince invested in the Warrior that he would have been much better off grabbing Sting when the JCP/UWF merger happened.

Assuming Sting even makes it to Wrestlemania 6 without blowing out his knee, the Hulkamaniacs would have resented him for beating Hogan just like they did Warrior. He gets the title just in time for a recession. His title run would underperform just like the Warrior's since Hogan will sabotage him by getting the program with the Earthquake, who was the only fresh heel WWF had left at the time. Vince still jobs him to Slaughter for his silly attempt to capitalize off the war. Sting settles into the upper mid card. Vince would have either got rid him during the steroid scandal or Sting would eventually jumped to WCW as Hogan's sidekick.

 

I don't think it would have mattered. Sting wasn't going to be a mega star either way.

 

I think that if Sting went to the WWF in 1987 when the UWF was bought out, that he eventually would have been huge in the WWF. Not Hogan huge... but bigger than any other babyface between Hogan winning the title in 1984 and Austin taking off in 1998/99. It may have been a slow, especially since mid-1987 was when Vince started Dingo around the horn before debuting in TV in October. Hellwig was freaking huge, so of course Vince had a boner over him. But I think Sting had more "WWF 80s It" that anyone after Hogan and would have eventually blossomed into a massive star. In a sense, that's exactly what happened in JCP: they didn't really push him, then he got over huge with the fans at Starcade '87. As 1987 finished and 1988 started, the company didn't really have anyone to run against Flair since they didn't want to rush Flair-Lex until the summer. Sting was suddenly over, got thrown into the breach, and got more over.

 

I think something similar would have happened in the WWF. He would have gotten over with the fans if given even a small push. He just had natural charisma that guys like Lex and Warrior didn't. Patterson and Vince would have noticed. Then an opportunity would have struck, and Sting would have gotten over more to the next level.

 

John