Crowd Reaction

[JerryvonKramer]

I would never usually do this, but I'm am extremely interested in this topic. It came up on the last Titans show when I discussed it mainly with Johnny (Sorrow) and Pete (shoe) (but the others chimed in too) and then again on WTBBP with Chad (soup23).

 

Johnny's and Chad's takes on this topic are really different. As I mention, I know from previous discussions, Dylan is closer to Chad's position. I honestly don't know where I fall on this and think there are good arguments on both sides. I know we've discussed it before, but I'd honestly like to go over it again.

 

For people who don't usually listen to either of these shows, I've taken the unusual move of pulling out the 10 minutes of audio in question and I've spliced them together. This is not a shill, I'm just very interested in opinions on this topic.

 

Here's the audio:

 

http://www.sendspace.com/file/csqu1e

 

In case you're not sure, first 8 minutes is from Titans, second 8 minutes is from WTBBP. If someone is feeling generous and wants to summarise the arguments made for those who don't have 15 mins to spare to listen, then I'd encourage you to do that.

 

Context for this discussion on Titans was us discussing Bruno vs. Larry at Spectrum and/or MSG and the electric crowd making the match, and then on WTBBP the crowd shitting on Rock n Roll Express vs. Doom at GAB 90.

 

I haven't been able to stop thinking about this topic since the weekend.

[Loss]

It matters to me a lot. It can make a good match great and a great match a classic. It can also really ruin a match that would be good otherwise. There are plenty of outliers and exceptions in both directions, so I don't think I can make a blanket statement though. Figuring it all out is closer to art than science.

[ajsmith_7]

Haven't got time right this second to listen to the audio but I definately will do tomorrow, but my opinion on this is similar to Loss' and that is that crowd reaction is hugely important, like said above a red hot crowd can turn great matches into classics, the first match that always comes to my mind is Joe vs Kobashi from ROH in '05, incredible crowd reaction from start to finish, amazing spectacle!!

[shoe]

I agree with what Loss said. I hope on the audio bite it meshes with what I'm saying now . Like I don't think you'll ever here me say 5* classic with a dead crowd. Of course some crowds are better than others. This argument would tie in well with the WCW vs. WWF crowd.

[goodhelmet]

I don't care if the crowd enjoyed it. I care if I enjoy it.

[tim]

It's something that's been mattering to me a lot more lately. Atmosphere means a lot. I mean, if two maestros are doing their thing on the mat I don't give a shit and one would expect the crowd to be (***respectfully***??) quiet and that can still be a great match. But a brawl, or a more "regular" match with your standard near full home stretch etc is all about building drama and a crowd going nuts for a big bump or kick out can kick the drama up a whole lot. A truly hot crowd can make an entirely match feel spectacular even if the work isn't great. A tepid crowd can make a match feel a step below and even sort of awkward. It's part of why I don't much enjoy Wrestlemanias anymore, the enormous often open air domes seem to be terrible at capturing sound.

[anarchistxx]

It can certainly make a match; whether it can ruin one is debatable. I have seen plenty of enjoyable heatless matches, but for something to really stick with me there has to be some level of crowd reaction.

[JerryvonKramer]

Have had reports that the link wasn't actually working, so try this:

 

http://www.sendspace.com/file/csqu1e

[Matt D]

I guess I look at a match on a lot of levels if I'm really trying to break it down. Part of that is "did it work," or "did it accomplish what it set out to do." I've seen tv matches that were there to tell a story that set up a house show or to set up an angle or to get over a specific wrestler in a specific way. Did the crowd buy what they were selling. It's important. I don't think it's as important as "Did it work for me?" though, because this is business, yes, but it's also art and art is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I think it's part of the context of understanding a match. Now, then, sometimes you can get swept away with a crowd and other times you can be frustrated with a crowd and it becomes a noticeable annoyance. This is especially true the first time you see a match I think.

 

I think ultimately, for me, it's more of a performance thing. If they're moving the crowd, I want to figure out how and why and whether it's something they're actively doing or some passive wave they're riding. If they're not moving the crowd, why is that? Is it something that I think they're doing wrong or are they just in a toxic environment? Moreover, if they are in a toxic environment and they're moving the crowd, is it because of something extraordinary that they're doing? Guys like Goldust are able to get a reaction out of a modern crowd that they almost shouldn't be able to.

 

I think it's more important to me to see how a wrestler is working a crowd than to get swept up in the cheers, is what I'm trying to say. "Big Match Feel" is one of the least important things in wrestling to me. I like "Good Match Feel" better.

[khawk20]

I don't care if the crowd enjoyed it. I care if I enjoy it.

But does a hot crowd enhance your enjoyment?

 

It does for me. I think if the combatants have a hot crowd it could enhance their own performance through the adrenaline of realizing that what they are doing has connected with the people they are wrestling in front of. As such, the two entities (wrestlers having the match and the crowd watching it) feed off of each other.

[Exposer]

I think about crowd reaction the same way Loss does. However, I'm a little more strict. For example, Starrcage 85 is a match that is tremendous but bothered me some with a suspect crowd reaction. The crowd wasn't sitting on their hands but they didn't seem as invested as I wanted them to be. It frustrated me a little and took some energy out of watching the match. That said, I still had it ranked number five but with a hotter crowd I probably would have slipped it to 2 or 3.

[thebrainfollower]

I think crowd reaction is an extremely important thing usually but I'm wondering if there are exceptions.

 

For instance the most obvious example would be the Sturgis WCW PPV crowds. Do we count their attitude towards Benoit vs. Malenko and Harlem Heat in general? How about the Bash 91 crowd turning on Luger-Windham when circumstances aren't even close to either guy's fault?

[cheapshot]

The crowd reaction certainly makes the Lesnar/Goldberg match at 'Mania stand out more.

[Matt D]

I think crowd reaction is an extremely important thing usually but I'm wondering if there are exceptions.

 

For instance the most obvious example would be the Sturgis WCW PPV crowds. Do we count their attitude towards Benoit vs. Malenko and Harlem Heat in general? How about the Bash 91 crowd turning on Luger-Windham when circumstances aren't even close to either guy's fault?

And how much more impressive would it have been if they had been able to turn the crowd around?

[JerryvonKramer]

I went and looked online for an automated transcription programme that can turn .mp3 into text, lol. Doesn't seem like that's something you can get easily.

[goodhelmet]

5571289[/url]']

5571112[/url]' date='Nov 6 2013, 08:35 PM']I don't care if the crowd enjoyed it. I care if I enjoy it.

But does a hot crowd enhance your enjoyment?

 

It does for me. I think if the combatants have a hot crowd it could enhance their own performance through the adrenaline of realizing that what they are doing has connected with the people they are wrestling in front of. As such, the two entities (wrestlers having the match and the crowd watching it) feed off of each other.

 

 

 

It can but it isn't mandatory.

[MikeCampbell]

I don't care if the crowd enjoyed it. I care if I enjoy it.

Same here. A hot crowd can make things more exciting, but it's nothing close to a make or break aspect. There's thirteen pages dedicated to Brody in the microscope most of which are talking about how shitty a worker he really was. But, I don't that John or Will is going to deny that Brody matches could get the crowd hot.

[goodhelmet]

Also, there are some crowds that want something different from their wrestling. I was there live surrounded by a really hot crowd for the Meltzer Five Star Richards vs Elgin match. The hot crowd marking out over no sold top rope tiger suplexes didn't increase my enjoyment of the match. I have watched tons of quiet PWFG and Battlarts and Futen matches. Doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the matches. Hell, half the time I have to watch my wrestling with the volume turned down anyway because of my work or my wife sleeping.

[Coffey]

Crazy crowds, to me, make the shows (or a match) a lot more fun. I think back to old ECW crowds, or the Toronto crowds (especially for Hogan Vs. Rock at Wrestlemania) or the post-Wrestlemania RAW crowds the last few years. They make it so much more fun, for me, as a viewer to watch. It feels different.

 

Granted there's a fine line too. If a crowd is just trying to be smarky, like some ROH crowds, it goes beyond fun & just becomes distracting & annoying.

 

The Rock Vs. Hulk Hogan at Wrestlemania X-8 is the biggest example of a crowd making a match. That match was certainly not anything special work wise but with the crowd going totally bananaâ„¢ for even back rakes, it was hard, at least for me, to not get sucked up in the atmosphere. When Hogan "hulks up" that place loses its damn mind.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHoIm72F9Nc

[WingedEagle]

A hot crowd can definitely get you more into a match, or sometimes make you wonder why you're not loving something quite as much as the live audience is. Are we looking for some kind of validation that a match is great, or is it a small part of what makes it awesome?

 

Dolph cashing in the briefcase was nothing special as a match, but how do you not get amped for it with a crowd like that? Same with Rock/Hogan as Coffey mentioned. No clue why why it can help so much, but man is it awesome to go along for the ride.

 

On the other hand, you go and watch Volk Han or something similar with politely respectful crowd that only turns up the volume for a finish or maybe a couple key spots, and it doesn't drag things down at all. Variety baby!

[BrickHithouse]

A hot crowd definitely makes the match better for me. It's also a decent tool when watching stuff I'm unfamiliar with - if there's a guy that I don't think much of and he's super-over with the crowd it makes me want to investigate exactly why the guy is so over. Jimmy Valiant would be a prime example. JYD might fit also.

 

I also like crowds that do a slow burn as the match progresses where they're seemingly not into the match at all for the first ten minutes but by the end are like a pack of ravenous pit bulls. (A lot of Backlund matches seem to fit this scenario).

 

On the flip side, I've enjoyed tons of matches with comatose crowds.

 

Hogan-Rock, like others have said, is a great example of a crowd making the match. The first time I watched it, I was blown away. A month or so later I watched with the sound off and it was the drizzling shits.

[Marty]

Depends.

 

Good, natural crowd reaction (fans reacting to an angle/match, being into it) means a lot. I suspect that's what most people mean here.

 

Jerkoff crowd reaction. Hate those.

[RyanClingman]

My stance on crowd reactions has changed somewhat over time, but I do feel that it is one of the most important aspects of wrestling. I find it more relevant when watching older footage from time periods or regions that I am not all too familiar with, as it really helps me gauge the standards and feelings towards the specific product at the time. It also has a very strong influence on current matches for me too, as the CM Punk/Cena match from MITB can attest to. There are matches such as Okada/Tanahashi VI, which would have been an all time classic for me had the crowd been hotter, and there are shows that are made by the crowd and the heat that it provides. With that being said, there are matches that don't have nuclear heat, but are still all time classics for me. I was one of the people who adored Tanahashi/Suzuki from last year, and while the crowd were hot for it, there wasn't insane heat; still, that match was was an absolute classic in my eyes.

 

Likewise there are matches that happen in places like PWG or Dragon Gate that have great crowd heat that I sometimes find my self rolling my eyes at. I am also not one of those people that things that the crowd cannot be wrong, as I have seen many a match in WCW, ROH, WWE and else where that should tear the house down, but don't. That often times isn't the fault of the wrestlers, or the way that they chose to work a given match, but rather the circumstances leading into it, how the workers had been booked, how the card worked out etc. Under normal circumstances for a match to click for me it needs to have great work and the right environment, and environment that the crowd plays an extraordinary large part in.

[ButchReedMark]

If crowd reactions really mattered Hulk Hogan in 2002-3 would have drawn more in those two years than anyone else ever could have.