The Daniel Bryan Push Thread

[Jimmy Redman]

In calling the last few months a "sustained push" for Bryan are we basing this purely on TV time and main events and ignoring actual...booking? Because yes, Bryan has been featured a lot. He's had a lot of main events and show closing angles. He gets a lot of time for matches. Absolutely.

 

On the other hand, he has also been perennially screwed out of the WWE Title, browbeaten as a guy who is not supposed to be a main event guy, and moved into a Wyatts feud with mini-heel turn that was designed to get Bray over enough to face a real star. Bryan fought the Authority for months and continually failed. He lost to Bray on PPV clean as a sheet. In fact has Bryan won a single match on PPV since Summerslam (aside from the NoC fast count)?

 

Having a guy be constantly beaten down with no redemption is not a sustained push for a top babyface in WWE.

 

And I'm not one of the hysterical "Bryan is buried" people, by any means. But acting like WWE is too clever by half and have somehow orchestrated the entire thing from the beginning is, I think, giving them a bit too much credit. At the same time, if they are finally listening to the fans and planning on giving Bryan a big win in the near future, then good on them for actually having the sense to do that.

[Johnny Sorrow]

An aside, but the term "top guy" seems to have two different definitions between smart fans and guys in the business . On Austin's show with Bryan they went on for awhile about what life was like for Bryan now that he's a top guy.

[Steven]

In calling the last few months a "sustained push" for Bryan are we basing this purely on TV time and main events and ignoring actual...booking? Because yes, Bryan has been featured a lot. He's had a lot of main events and show closing angles. He gets a lot of time for matches. Absolutely.

He won at Survivor Series.

 

Sept: He won via "fast count."

Oct: No contest/screwjob

Nov: Won the tag match against the Wyatts

Dec: Lost a three on one handicap match

Jan: Lost to Wyatt.

 

Again, ignoring the fact he's won stuff multiple gauntlet matches and those PPV loses are pretty much the only pinfall losses he's had since Summerslam.

[Sean Liska]

Here's another way of looking at it. Who in the past 8 years has gotten the type of push that everyone wants Daniel Bryan to get? Jeff Hardy did lots of jobs along the way. So did Edge. So did Punk. You can argue it's not the best way to create stars, but it's tough to say WWE hasn't gotten behind him when everyone gets treated the same way.

[efrim]

In calling the last few months a "sustained push" for Bryan are we basing this purely on TV time and main events and ignoring actual...booking? Because yes, Bryan has been featured a lot. He's had a lot of main events and show closing angles. He gets a lot of time for matches. Absolutely.

 

On the other hand, he has also been perennially screwed out of the WWE Title, browbeaten as a guy who is not supposed to be a main event guy, and moved into a Wyatts feud with mini-heel turn that was designed to get Bray over enough to face a real star. Bryan fought the Authority for months and continually failed. He lost to Bray on PPV clean as a sheet. In fact has Bryan won a single match on PPV since Summerslam (aside from the NoC fast count)?

 

Having a guy be constantly beaten down with no redemption is not a sustained push for a top babyface in WWE.

 

And I'm not one of the hysterical "Bryan is buried" people, by any means. But acting like WWE is too clever by half and have somehow orchestrated the entire thing from the beginning is, I think, giving them a bit too much credit. At the same time, if they are finally listening to the fans and planning on giving Bryan a big win in the near future, then good on them for actually having the sense to do that.

This is my thinking precisely. The fact that Bryan just fills a massive amount of TV time is not insignificant - But without star booking it doesn't mean so much in the end. In some ways I feel like he's getting an upgraded version of contemporary Chris Jericho booking. He's booked seriously most of the time, but ultimately clears out or makes somebody else look good.

[DR Ackermann]

From the looks of things, I don't think the WWE ever planned to give the Bryan story line a payoff. They had no intention of riding it through its logical progression. I think they took something that was hot and saw it as a way to buy time until Cena returned and then they were moving on, instead of trying to capitalize on it. Its like the opposite of the NWO angle, where WCW got a hold of something and tried to keep going with it way past its expiration date. Instead the WWE was steering clear of something that was hot until they were forced to acknowledge it in spite of itself.

[tlk23]

Alvarez just said that it sounds like Punk vs. HHH is off and Bryan vs. HHH is on.

[Jimmy Redman]

In calling the last few months a "sustained push" for Bryan are we basing this purely on TV time and main events and ignoring actual...booking? Because yes, Bryan has been featured a lot. He's had a lot of main events and show closing angles. He gets a lot of time for matches. Absolutely.

He won at Survivor Series.

 

Sept: He won via "fast count."

Oct: No contest/screwjob

Nov: Won the tag match against the Wyatts

Dec: Lost a three on one handicap match

Jan: Lost to Wyatt.

 

Again, ignoring the fact he's won stuff multiple gauntlet matches and those PPV loses are pretty much the only pinfall losses he's had since Summerslam.

 

I forgot about Survivor Series. But still you're not really disproving my point. I'm not saying Bryan has been losing matches, but rather that he's not winning them.

 

Bryan hasn't won on PPV since Summerslam, apart from the NoC bullshit and the tag match with Punk. Even on TV, what major matches has he won? Orton got DQ'd in their match. The Usos won the cage match. The finish of the Wyatts gauntlet was a DQ. You have to go back to the 11 vs 3 Shield match to find a significant Bryan pinfall victory. That is September.

 

And not everyone gets treated the same way. Look at Sheamus in 2012. When they decided he was going to be The Guy on Smackdown, he won the world title and kept winning matches over and over. I don't think he lost a match between Mania and HIAC. Whenever they push Orton as a face, he wins and wins all the time. Cena. And obviously there are differences between them, and you can't book Bryan as unstoppable when he's a rebellious underdog and I'm not suggesting you do. What I'm saying is that WWE likes it's top babyfaces to win matches. If they really were getting behind Bryan at that level, they'd have him win matches. They wouldn't use him to get the Wyatts over and have him be pinned clean by a heel on PPV in the blow off. They'd use the Wyatts (or anyone else) to keep him busy before Mania season and give Bryan the big win in the end to maintain his momentum going into the supposed big push. But Bray Wyatt was more important to them. If they were going all the way with him getting his back against the Authority, he'd win the Rumble and win the title at Mania, or beat Hunter at Mania or something along those lines. But Batista is more important to them. CM Punk is even more important to them. And Bryan will be 5th down on the Mania card. That isn't WWE getting behind a guy to the best of their ability. That's WWE ultimately deciding that other people are more important.

[NitroFan]

Also, the merchandise talking point amuses me to no end. The number one seller of merchandise in the company is Cena. You know...this guy:

except cena and bryan are appealing to different audiences. 10 year olds might love their garish cena merchandise but (and i have nothing to support this, so i guess its just my theory) most adult wrestling fans dont want that or cartoon goats.

 

no one can convince me that a ron simmons style tshirt with nothing but 'yes' on it wouldnt sell like crazy.

 

speaking more generally (although it certainly applies to bryan), i wish wwe would lose their obsession with putting shit (usually the wrestlers name) on the back of their shirts. looks terrible.

[sek69]

Cena's merchandise is perfect for the market that buys it. Bryan's merchandise seems like it was purposefully designed to not sell well.

[goc]

Well look at this.

 

I don't think anyone should read too much into a poster that also includes masked Kane prominently.

[Lust Hogan]

I agree that WWE isn't handling this the best way. It seems like their major concern is controlling the Daniel Bryan narrative rather than making money with the guy. I agree with all of you that what fans want most is the sustained push of Bryan. I also think it will be interesting to see how this (if at all) affects WWE Network subscriptions. Will fans give money to a company that constantly ignores what they want?

 

I was thinking about this yesterday and I know that most people say the best way to get WWE's attention would be to stop watching or paying but what if their was a drastic crowd reaction that totally disrupted the show like garbage being thrown during the middle of a match with the Vince picked stars or worse? I just have this feeling WWE is going to get their "Snowballs at Santa" moment sooner rather than later....

 

I get that the tweets and part of the booking is a work but I think WWE might work themselves into a shoot if they're not careful.

[Loss]

I wouldn't say Daniel Bryan has been buried the last few months. I think a more fair description is that the heel promos on him have not been the kind of promos a company allows to be cut on a guy they really want to get behind, and that he should really emerge victorious over The Authority in the end. If he accomplishes that, the belt and his card placement is a separate issue. People are conflating them, because the Authority storyline is about the belt and his card placement.

[Matt D]

I think it would be interesting if someone (Bix? Bix would be good; John works too. Eric? Chris? someone) broke down a lot of the best top babyface elevation pushes in history and how and why they worked from a booking/promotion standpoint and if any commonalities can be found and whether or not the Bryan push over the last six months or so check those boxes. Try to classify some of this.

[Jesse Ewiak]

I wouldn't say Daniel Bryan has been buried the last few months. I think a more fair description is that the heel promos on him have not been the kind of promos a company allows to be cut on a guy they really want to get behind, and that he should really emerge victorious over The Authority in the end.

Bingo. Again, look at the way they pushed Austin as he was rising, or hell, look at the way they pushed Orton once it was obvious he was turning heel and afterward. Most heel champions are pussies and barely win their matches. Not Randy Orton. He beats faces clean in the middle. They're pushing Bryan, but not in with any real plan or momentum.

[Steven]

Are you really using Randy as an example of a good push? Even Dave said he's not being pushed all that well. He beat midcarders clean like Kofi and Dolph. Even Miz was able to do that.

[Jimmy Redman]

He also beat Cena clean at TLC to unify the titles. And won the Bryan feud.

 

Orton is being portrayed as a weak champion right now - most of the time - but thats because he's supposed to be a weak paper champion, he's a heel. Bryan is a supposed top babyface who can't get a major win over anybody. And Orton doesn't need to be "pushed well" because he's already been established as a top guy for years. Bryan is on the cusp, it's their job to push him to get him over it.

[JerryvonKramer]

Ironically, all of this shit has made me a little bit curious and I'm thinking of watching Raw into Mania.

[Jesse Ewiak]

Are you really using Randy as an example of a good push? Even Dave said he's not being pushed all that well. He beat midcarders clean like Kofi and Dolph. Even Miz was able to do that.

Yeah, they were also trying to push Miz to get him over as a heel as well. I'm talking more about the heel champs or main heels, like say, Dolph, Awesome Truth, Swagger, and so on, that were supposed to be main event heels, but couldn't beat midcarders or ever get one over on a face. Orton, Triple H, and Miz during his title reign (for some of it) actually stood tall at the end of RAW, something that barely ever happened with other heels. Same thing with faces. How many times was Austin, Cena, or The Rock left totally laid out like Bryan was multiple times during his 'push'?

 

Now, the last month or so has been wacky for Orton, but he still beat John Cena in two straight PPV's, one time clean and the other time semi-clean. How many people can say that since Cena won his first title?

[Bix]

Also, the merchandise talking point amuses me to no end. The number one seller of merchandise in the company is Cena. You know...this guy:

except cena and bryan are appealing to different audiences. 10 year olds might love their garish cena merchandise but (and i have nothing to support this, so i guess its just my theory) most adult wrestling fans dont want that or cartoon goats.

 

no one can convince me that a ron simmons style tshirt with nothing but 'yes' on it wouldnt sell like crazy.

 

speaking more generally (although it certainly applies to bryan), i wish wwe would lose their obsession with putting shit (usually the wrestlers name) on the back of their shirts. looks terrible.

 

And when Bryan just had the maroon "YES!" shirt, it clearly sold really well to both kids and young adults. I feel like everyone keeps forgetting that.

 

Plus it doesn't help that even if someone likes the design, the Goatface stuff was supposed to be about him being ugly and he never really adopted it for himself on promos.

[goc]

Said this in the other thread, but I still think they can turn this around by having Bryan win the Elimination Chamber and then face HHH at Mania. I know everyone keeps saying "he needs to win the title on the big stage!" but I think defending the title against HHH and beating him clean to end the storyline is just as big a moment as winning the title at Mania over Orton, when people are burnt out on that matchup, would be.

[Matt D]

Said this in the other thread, but I still think they can turn this around by having Bryan win the Elimination Chamber and then face HHH at Mania. I know everyone keeps saying "he needs to win the title on the big stage!" but I think defending the title against HHH and beating him clean to end the storyline is just as big a moment as winning the title at Mania over Orton, when people are burnt out on that matchup, would be.

I'm not sure how I feel about him defending against HHH relative to beating HHH for it. HHH as a challenger brings up bad memories of the build for HHH challenging Cena.

[goc]

Said this in the other thread, but I still think they can turn this around by having Bryan win the Elimination Chamber and then face HHH at Mania. I know everyone keeps saying "he needs to win the title on the big stage!" but I think defending the title against HHH and beating him clean to end the storyline is just as big a moment as winning the title at Mania over Orton, when people are burnt out on that matchup, would be.

I'm not sure how I feel about him defending against HHH relative to beating HHH for it. HHH as a challenger brings up bad memories of the build for HHH challenging Cena.

 

Yea but at least all the stuff HHH will say in his promos will just be a continuance of the storyline they ran for months after SummerSlam. "You aren't face of the WWE material, you shouldn't be champion, B+ player blah blah" and then HHH has the chance to prove himself right. Bryan beats him clean at WrestleMania and makes him tap, finally ending it.

[Lust Hogan]

This reminds me of Star Wars fans wanting the original trilogy on blu-ray and getting that crap George Lucas put out.

[cm funk]

I wouldn't say Daniel Bryan has been buried the last few months. I think a more fair description is that the heel promos on him have not been the kind of promos a company allows to be cut on a guy they really want to get behind, and that he should really emerge victorious over The Authority in the end.

Bingo. Again, look at the way they pushed Austin as he was rising, or hell, look at the way they pushed Orton once it was obvious he was turning heel and afterward. Most heel champions are pussies and barely win their matches. Not Randy Orton. He beats faces clean in the middle. They're pushing Bryan, but not in with any real plan or momentum.

 

Austin lost a lot, and it's one of the reasons he got so over. Hell, his most famous match, the one that "made" him, he lost clean via passing out in a pool of his own blood. It felt like he never beat Bret. He got rolled up and pinned by Owen in the Canadian Stampede tag. Pro Fight DB pegs him at a 58% winning % in his WWF career! Rock is even lower! The idea that to be a top guy or get a top push in WWE you have to win all the time is just wrong.

 

And it's not like Bryan doesn't get big wins. He was the first guy to beat The Shield after they beat every star in the company, Cena included. He beats Orton or gets screwed every time. He beats Cena clean. But part of Bryan's appeal is that he's an underdog who constantly fighting from underneath. I don't want to see Daniel Bryan winning every match he's in, and I think if they booked him like that he'd be less over than he is right now. If Cena is Superman and Punk was Batman.....Bryan is Wolverine. Wolverine would lose battles all the time and he's one of the most over comic characters ever. He doesn't get hurt at all by losing to Bray Wyatt, because it was a great match. And it made Wyatt look like a million bucks.

 

I just haven't really seen this mistreatment of Bryan that some people see. Has the booking been perfect? No, absolutely not, but it very rarely is. But there has been every indication for a while now that they see Bryan as a company ace. Not THE ace, because that will always be Cena until he hangs up his boots. That's just the way it is. But WWF/E has always had room for multiple aces. Not everyone can be Hogan or Cena.