Matches you must love. But don't.

[DR Ackermann]

I think you are right. The end result is why Austin/Hart is so great. They had a goal with their booking and the match executed that plan perfectly. The match doesn't exist in a vacuum, and if it did, then I agree, it would definitely be overrated. The last time I watched the match I was going through all the RAWs and PPVs of 1997 so I had the build and it was probably the most I enjoyed it. That same reason is probably why Tully/Magnum doesn't work for me. I've only seen it without any real context.

[Bierschwale]

So it's in the right thread:

 

I didn't really need any context for Magnum-Tully. It just felt so much more intense than the WWE I Quit stuff from over the years that it captured my heart immediately. It wasn't an EPIC, it was just as good as fictional pankratiastic hatred could be to me.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Magnum TA vs Tully Blanchard: "I Quit" Starrcade 85

 

Here's the grooviest thing about this. It's actually more about Tully than it is Magnum.

 

The whole deal starts with the Dusty/ Tully feud over the TV Title that had been going on for awhile. They had been battling for awhile and at the same time Magnum was US champ. At the first Great American Bash, Dusty beat Tully not only for the TV Title, but he got Baby Doll as his valet for 30 days. Tully was despondent on TV, going on about how Rhodes and his cronies are out to ruin his life and that he'll come back, mark his words. Meanwhile, during one of the vignettes where Dusty is making Baby Doll work on Nelson Royal's ranch, she gains Dusty's trust for a minute as she shows she knows how to ride a horse. She then takes off on said horse to get away from Dusty and contractually enforced servitude. Dusty checks his credit cards that she also stole that show she was in Hawaii.

 

At the same time, Tully was challenging Magnum for the US belt. They met in a match where someone dressed as a cop (who was obviously Baby Doll) came to ringside and gave Tully a foreign object/ roll of quarters with which he slugged Magnum and stole the US Belt. Now on TV Tully was gloating to all that not only did he rebound from losing the TV belt, he did so by winning the US belt, and from Dusty's pal. The 30 days were up and Baby Doll was back at his side. The announcers claimed that she was the "cop", but how could that be if the receipts proved she was in Hawaii? NEFARIOUS!

Now Magnum is furious. He wants the belt that he worked so hard to get and defended constantly back. Tully escapes every rematch by the skin of his teeth via luck and cheating. All the while letting Magnum know that he, Tully Blanchard is the man, not Magnum. The feud carries on until Tully finally says that Magnum has one last shot at the belt, then he's moving on. And Magnum loses that match via nefarious means, or there was a DQ, I can't recall. Anyway, Tully gloats that "THAT'S IT" no more title shots for Magnum. Magnum tries everything to get a rematch. At some point he attacks Tully during a match or something like that and attacks him while HE is disguised as a cop!

Magnum is pleading for a rematch, but no dice. Finally, Jim Crockett says there will be one and it'll be at Starrcade, and it'll be an "I Quit" match. Tully is furious, and appeals to the NWA Board who agree with him that this should not happen as it will be too brutal or somesuch. Crockett comes out and says that the NWA may not sanction the match but Jim Crockett Promotions will take all responsibility. The match is ON. And this time it WILL be Magnum's last chance at the belt and Tully Blanchard, who robbed him of HIS belt to start with, and it's Tully's time to show if his comeback from the bottom can be sustained. Both by any means necessary. The level of hatred and utter disdain between the two of them during all this is so thick you can cut it with a knife and spread it on a bagel made of awesome.

 

Then......the best match ever.

[Sidebottom]

For the people who say the Liger vs Muta rematch was better than the original, I just don't see it at all.

[KrisZ]

I'll go to my "go to" answer for this one.

 

Patterson/Slaugher Alley Fight

[Al]

 

Kerry v flair in the cage.

 

YES!!

 

Dude, this match PISSES me off...I get it get kicked off the feud and all....but HOLY FUCK was it fucked up after the cage door slams...Kerry should have been out, and Flair either pins him or slaps on the figure 4 (since Kerry had the bad knee) and Kerry is out and gets counted down..

 

Instead Kerry actually gets some offense in before the match is stopped...the ending is a clusterfuck and should not have ended that way....I know they were WAY over so it didnt matter, but man, that should have been WAY better ending to really push the fact that the Birds DIRECTLY caused Kerry to be pinned or passed out...

 

AND...one punch from Hayes and Flair is out long enouigh for them to argue for a few minutes? Come on...that sucks...

 

Not ending the match immediately after the cage door spot served a vital purpose. It kept the fans' attention partly on the match and allowed the Freebirds to get back to the dressing room in one piece. WCCW didn't have the type of crowd control we're accustomed to.

[C.S.]

Bret/Austin I like, but would people love it as much if it didn't result in Austin turning babyface and becoming a star?

 

Sure, but you could say that about any match, really. Look at all of the countless WCW matches that were great (lucha, cruiserweight, etc.), but had either no build-up, no follow-up, or both. That stuff matters. It's what makes a good match great and a great match legendary and remembered for years to come.

[BillThompson]

I think some matches can be great in isolation. The build, or follow-up, can certainly help a match, or hurt it, but all the same there's sometimes when great wrestling is just great wrestling, regardless of if there's any angle present or not.

[efrim]

I'll hop in the Magnum/Tully camp as well. In isolation I found it only a very good brawl. First watched it consuming the Best of Starrcade DVD and I have to say I came away far more taken with the Piper/Valentine Dog Collar Match.

[Ditch]

For the people who say the Liger vs Muta rematch was better than the original, I just don't see it at all.

Need some clarification. I only recall the 10/96 match, which is nowhere near "a match you're supposed to love" level.

[claw64]

 

Have to agree on the Bret-Owen cage match.

 

I saw that match live and didn't really like it. Didn't really hate it either. Thought it was just an average match.

[Smack2k]

 

 

Kerry v flair in the cage.

 

YES!!

 

Dude, this match PISSES me off...I get it get kicked off the feud and all....but HOLY FUCK was it fucked up after the cage door slams...Kerry should have been out, and Flair either pins him or slaps on the figure 4 (since Kerry had the bad knee) and Kerry is out and gets counted down..

 

Instead Kerry actually gets some offense in before the match is stopped...the ending is a clusterfuck and should not have ended that way....I know they were WAY over so it didnt matter, but man, that should have been WAY better ending to really push the fact that the Birds DIRECTLY caused Kerry to be pinned or passed out...

 

AND...one punch from Hayes and Flair is out long enouigh for them to argue for a few minutes? Come on...that sucks...

 

Not ending the match immediately after the cage door spot served a vital purpose. It kept the fans' attention partly on the match and allowed the Freebirds to get back to the dressing room in one piece. WCCW didn't have the type of crowd control we're accustomed to.

 

 

 

You know, I never thought of it that way....BUT....Flair could have taunted the crowd for a minute or went over and kind of nudged Kerry to see if he was out or not, then taunted again and slapped on teh figure 4, FORCING the ref (a Von Erich friend) who's name escapes me right now, to call for the bell...

 

That would have given the Birds PLENTY of time to get to the back...

[Johnny Sorrow]

Neat little bit, Hayes mentions that it should have ended after the door to the head on the latest Austin podcast.

[Mr. B.B. Rogers]

I remember people raving about the Benoit / Michaels / HHH at Mania as being an all time classic once it was over. To be it was a great match, but lets not get carried away...

 

I've yet to see an HBK/HHH encounter that I enjoyed. Way too long, self-indulgent, and just never feeling as "big" as they should (read: as the WWE wants you to see them as.) But the triple threat at WM XX was probably the best involving those two, for me, because the inclusion of Benoit kept things crisp and (for a 3-way) moving pretty well.

[JerryvonKramer]

Legit shock about the number of people saying Magnum vs. Tully. If I have time later I might type up the review by Chad and myself of it. I think it's one of a very very small number of matches that transcend wrestling, that is about more than just wrestling, that digs right down and asks questions about what it is to be a man. Never thought I'd see people bring it up in this thread.

[Mr. B.B. Rogers]

Legit shock about the number of people saying Magnum vs. Tully. If I have time later I might type up the review by Chad and myself of it. I think it's one of a very very small number of matches that transcend wrestling, that is about more than just wrestling, that digs right down and asks questions about what it is to be a man. Never thought I'd see people bring it up in this thread.

 

Agreed. There's a lot of "I didn't see any of the build," but, in my opinion, this is a match that you can get into without that. It's a pure fight for survival. It's dirty, angry, aggressive, and brutal. Matches that visceral, when done right, don't require buildup. Sure, it helps, but I could watch that match 1,000 times without any backstory and still understand what it's about.

[topropepodcast]

HHH vs Austin, 3 Stages of Hell. It's the perfect example of a bloated self indulgent HHH Epic. I honestly can't even sit through it in one sitting.

 

I watched it last month for the show, and I could not agree more.

 

Just absolutely fucking hated it. First time I'd seen it.

[subatomic_elbow]

I will put kneepads over my jeans and crop my shirt so I can fight any son of a bitch who says Magnum TA/Tully Blanchard 'I Quit'.

[rainmakerrtv]

 

You know, I never thought of it that way....BUT....Flair could have taunted the crowd for a minute or went over and kind of nudged Kerry to see if he was out or not, then taunted again and slapped on teh figure 4, FORCING the ref (a Von Erich friend) who's name escapes me right now, to call for the bell...

 

 

 

David Manning, FTG.

[(BP)]

I rewatched Magnum/Tully last night. The last five minutes are sublime. I get why it's a sacred cow. I just think there's a leap between what I saw and the match that transcends professional wrestling, as it's been described. For me it's a, "match you enjoy a great deal that other people love more."

[JerryvonKramer]

Okay, I went all the way back to WTTBP #9 to transcribe the review. Here's what we said:

 

Chad: Right out of the gate, they really worked the cage. A couple of teases of Blanchard going in. That was the thing I really liked the best was, Blanchard going into the cage first and blocks it before sending Magnum in. So it really builds up to the moment of Tully going into the cage, and then it finally happens.

 

Parv: This is a real fight isn't it. These two guys are all over each other right from the very start and this is as hate-fueled and as brutal as you'd expect it to be really. Just awesome stuff.

 

Brian: They legitimately look like they hate each other.

 

Chad: Yeah, really hardly any other match I can think of ... the thing that always gets me about this match is the escalation of hate. At the bell, they obviously don't like each other, but throughout the match you really just feel the intensity and the hatred grow. And, of course, with the finish which is pretty much epic ...

 

Parv: I can't help but wonder like ... Tully Blanchard in real life never had a relationship with Baby Doll right? I mean, they weren't actually going out or anything right?

 

Chad: Well ... I don't think officially, but you hear a lot of stuff.

 

Parv: Because if they weren't, this is one of the best acting jobs ... he's very believable ... You get the impression he's legitimately pissed off.

 

[some stuff about how great Baby Doll was in this angle]

 

Parv: So the microphone plays a big part in this match, which I guess is one of the novelties of an "I Quit" match. So there's a big part of this where one guy is saying "SAY IT!" and the other guy is saying "NOOOoo!", so the whole premise of this is that one of them has to say "I Quit" into the mic.

 

Brian: The microphone was a big part of this, but it's not so much what they are saying but how they are saying it. It's an 80s mic, so it's got that sorta muffled sound, and that added so much to this. You can hear them breathing heavily and feel their pain.

 

Chad: It didn't seem cartoonish either. I mean, I know in the Bret Hart vs Bob Backlund Wrestlemania "I Quit" match, there's a couple of instances there where it feels really cartoonish them yelling "Nooo", but here it really felt like a battle.

 

Parv: One of the things I was going to say is that the humilation of having to say "I Quit" in front of an audience really seems ... I don't want to get too deep here ... but it really seems to get down to something primal. Like, I guess you'd call it the masculine ego or something ... This isn't just personal, this is their manhood, their pride, everything at stake here. Which is why they don't want to say "I Quit". And it's very rare for a wrestling match to get at that primal level. Would you agree with that?

 

Chad: Absolutely. I mean at the end of the match you do feel a sense of humilation for Tully. It's amazing that you kind of feel embarrassed for him. It's incredible, can't throw enough adjectives.

 

---------

 

Also from WTBBP #45, the end-of-80s awards:

 

Chad: I don't think it's much of a surprise if you've listened to this show what our top two matches would be. I think maybe the order would be in jeopardy, but we both had the same number 2 and same number 1.

 

Parv: So number 2, and this is a match, Chad, where when you said "it would be number 1 in AWA or All Japan or whatever", this is a match that I'd say is way up there for all-time matches for me, and that's Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanachard, "I Quit", Starrcade 85. What an incredible match.

 

Chad: This I'd probably say would be number 1 even on All Japan. Great match, hatred, emotions; for me this is a match where you get emotions that you don't see conjured up that much in wrestling. There's an amazing sense of humilation that you see in Tully's eyes as he quits. He's just this despicable man that even still won't just accept the loss, and Magnum defiantly leaving the cage as he tosses the belt over the shoulder walking tall. It's one of the best ... bringing somebody out to the wood shed and giving them what they deserve. This type of match where you knew both of them wouldn't be the same coming out of this match as they were going in and it's just a great culmination to a great rivalry.

 

Parv: I don't want to repeat myself too much, but to me this is one of the few instances where a match transcends the confines of wrestling. It's about more than just winning and losing, it's about manhood, it's about the male ego ... just fantastic.

 

-----------------

 

I guess sometimes certain things just don't click with certain people. I mean my entrants to this thread are all the recent WM epics. Undertaker vs. HBK, Flair vs. HBK -- those "staged epics" full of false finishes and choreographed emotion just don't speak to me on any level at all. I'm sure there are people here who think they are among the best matches of all time, so I guess it's what you like.

 

To me though, Magnum vs. Tully is another level.

[efrim]

Think I'm going to have to watch Tully/Magnum TA again and give it another chance to move from "very good" to "classic"

[DR Ackermann]

I'm going to re-watch it this week too.

[Death From Above]

I actually feel like, at least in the IWC circles I run, that me liking the Bret/Owen cage match puts me pretty solidly in the minority.

[DMJ]

I might go with pretty much every Orton/Cena match. I'm not saying their matches are horrendous or that they weren't "Match of the Night" winners and, for a time, they probably were "Match of the Month" winners...but none of them were MOTY to me and I think both guys have had better matches with different opponents.