Matches you must love. But don't.

[WingedEagle]

We've all got opinions on what wrestling is great, good or poor. Some of us just happen to be right more than others. That being said, there's a pretty big consensus that certain matches are great for their time, promotion, or all-timers. I'm curious what widely praised match just never clicked with you, and whether you could identify why. Leading things off for me:

 

Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage (Wrestlemania 3, 3/29/1987):

 

Mania is this weekend so might as well start with one that is generally considered in the upper echelon of mania matches. This always comes across as a smartly constructed and executed match without any major flaws. You've got a hot feud, top domestic performers and arguably the biggest stage up to this point in time. But every time I've watched, this feels like a very good version of your "extended match in Raw hour #2." Outside of a couple flare ups, there's no heightened intensity to speak of. No high spots teased and worked towards throughout the match, and a finish that feels pretty pedestrian given the stakes and story.

 

Its possible I might think higher of this if I was a fan at the time, following the feud then and accustomed to the NWA/WWF product that was available up to that point in 1987. On the other hand, I can probably name over 10 Steamboat matches from his '90s WCW run alone that I prefer to this which don't exactly fit the mold of modern WWE main event style, or anything from Japan over the last few decades that I love and have since consumed in copious amounts.

[Matt D]

I really need to dig through the raw data of the DVDVR board one of these days to retrieve my Midnight Rockers cage match rant.

[Smack2k]

I really like this topic..

 

Here is one:

 

Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi - ROH - 2005

 

I remember when I started reading about this in late 2005 and felt like "Oh God, I gotta see this..." So I bought it, waited and it finally arrived a week later. That night, sat down, smoked a bowl, and put it on, psyched for a great match. What followed (to me anyway) was nothing more that two guys chopping each other OVER AND OVER in between a couple other normal Joe moves, with the crowd LOVING it..Once it was over, I turned it off and really didn't understand the love the match got, and still dont today after a few more viewings..

[Coffey]

Bret Hart Vs. Owen Hart at Wrestlemania X was the first one that came to my mind. In general, I dislike matches that end with a roll-up. I feel cheated. So I agree with the OP name-dropping Steamboat/Savage too. Actually, come to think of it, that's one of my biggest problems with Steamboat. Most of his matches seemed to end that way & I'm not a fan of his offense at all.

[Ditch]

Good choices so far. Savage/Steamboat is begging for an epic comeback that never happens; Kobashi/Joe has the crowd willing it to be MOTY but it just isn't (though I think with less hype and smarkiness it's a good slugfest); Bret/Owen is a fine technical match with an upset finish that has no business being called 5* based on the work or story.

 

There are a lot of flawed WON MOTYs that don't really fall into "you must love this!" status anymore, such as '83, '85, '91, '95. I'm struggling to come up with something that isn't lucha, which to me wouldn't be fair given my dislike of the style as a whole.

[artDDP]

I posted about this a few years ago and I'll mention it again: I never thought the Rock-Steve Austin WrestleMania XVII match was very good. For me it was just a bunch of punching between hitting each wrestler's signature moves over and over again. By this point I had gotten tired of the WWF making almost every PPV main event no-disqualification to make up for the fact that their top stars could only work one type of match and I really didn't like that Vince McMahon and a chair were the finish of a second consecutive WrestleMania.

[flyonthewall2983]

Savage/Steamboat definitely pops to mind. I think they could have had a better match at IV, or just a match where they were both faces.

[Karl]

Owen v Bret at Summerslam falls into this category for me. Never connected with that match and could not understand the praise it got at the time. Kobashi v Joe always seemed a bit like emperors new clothes to me.

[El-P]

Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi - ROH - 2005

 

I remember when I started reading about this in late 2005 and felt like "Oh God, I gotta see this..." So I bought it, waited and it finally arrived a week later. That night, sat down, smoked a bowl, and put it on, psyched for a great match. What followed (to me anyway) was nothing more that two guys chopping each other OVER AND OVER in between a couple other normal Joe moves, with the crowd LOVING it..Once it was over, I turned it off and really didn't understand the love the match got, and still dont today after a few more viewings..

 

Oh man, the cosplay match. First time I truly realized that love for Japanese pro-wrestling had fucked up an entire generation of hardcore fans and workers. Joe cosplaying as an All Japan big 4 and the crowd cosplaying Korakuen Hall was embarrassing to watch. Total post-modern pro-wrestling. I hated this with a passion.

[GSR]

Owen v Bret at Summerslam falls into this category for me. Never connected with that match and could not understand the praise it got at the time.

This was the first one that came to mind for me. Remember seeing it get loads of praise at the time and again after when I discovered the likes of the Observer, but it did nothing for me in the slightest and was actually quite bored by it.

[dawho5]

Damn, I have yet to watch that Joe vs. Kobashi match, and now I really don't want to...

[victory]

Taker vs. HBK from Mania 25. The botches annoy the hell out of me from a match that got so much hype. That fucked up figure four leg lock Michaels puts on Taker is brutal. My twins could do a better Gates of Hell hold than the one Taker applies. Then you have the messed up DDT. I will admit I didn't watch it live and watched it after all the hype, so maybe I would feel different if I had seen it in a live setting.

[WingedEagle]

Love it!

 

Smack -- I absolutely hear you on Joe/Kobashi. When you break that match down and think about it, and look at what was put out having removed yourself from the moment, it doesn't add up to all that much. But you know what? When I first watched that match on DVD I was jumping off the couch and screaming and I still love it today. All I've got for you is a super badass and indy darling who I loved to watch in person in one corner, against the most charismatic guy I've seen come out of Japan in the other. That doesn't mean everyone loves it, but it still clicks for me, even if I can't argue with those who don't see the magic.

 

Bret/Owen at Mania X was one of 2 others I considered starting things off with, but went with Steamboat/Savage because I thought this was superior on every front. Heat, execution, transitions, finish -- it wins across the board. Just doesn't measure up as an all timer for me.

[Petey]

I saw Joe v. Kobashi live and loved the hell out of it. ROH was just on fire at the time and the New Yorker was a terrific venue for a wrestling event. It was one of those "dream" matches that no one ever thought would happen.

 

That said, I understand people being underwhelmed with it after seeing/hearing the hype. It's probably my favorite match I've ever seen live but taking that experience out of it, it's merely decent-good and not some 5* classic.

[Loss]

I don't know if the ROH vs CZW Cage of Death match still gets lots of love, but if so, that's my answer. All the coming and going (Bryan Danielson heeling early and leaving, Homicide coming in late) really kills the gimmick, which is supposed to be no way in, no way out. I remember liking the six-man on the 100th ROH show way more.

[BillThompson]

I can honestly say that I haven't seen a much ballyhooed match yet that I didn't also really like or love. Maybe the Midnight Express versus Rock 'n' Roll Express from WrestleWar '90 would count. Too much Cornette silliness with the referee for the match to ever really get going. It was okay, but not great like most people seem to think.

[anarchistxx]

03/06/94. Obviously an outstanding match, but certainly nowhere near my favorite All Japan list. I much preferred the matches Misawa had with Jumbo, and the lauded tags were way better, as well as stuff like Kobashi/Kikuchi vs Can Ams, and a ton of joshi matches from the same period.

[Loss]

Ooh, Misawa vs Jumbo from 6/8/90 and Jumbo vs Kawada from 10/24/91 are both good picks for me. I think both matches are good, but I don't understand why they place among the best of the decade so often. I'm expecting to have both in my top 500 of the 90s, but not in the upper tier.

[WingedEagle]

Jumbo/Misawa 1 is a good call. Having heard tons about it before watching I expected something akin to 6/3/94 only with a more monumental finish, and instead it just came off as one of those "you had to be there" deals that was simply great but far short of anything all-time. Another great example of how expectations going into the match can really shape what you think.

[dawho5]

It's more a must-see for the historic factor. That match put Misawa in the main event solidly. The Hansen match later on seemed like it made him "the man". Neither were Misawa's best matches in-ring, but they are a big part of the history.

 

I will agree on Steamboat vs. Macho from WM3. It was definitely a great match, but I've seen a lot better out of Steamboat.

[Bierschwale]

It's funny, because I actually don't think that there's an AJ match here more acclaimed than Akiyama/Misawa-Kawada/Taue, so it's not slaughtering a sacred cow anywhere but here, but I really don't like it. I know that from when I last watched it that I didn't DISLIKE it. But all that I can remember from it is Taue hitting about forty nodowas.

[PeteF3]

I've hammered my general distaste for shootstyle to death, in the Yearbook forums and in the old '80s Project forums. But Maeda vs. Fujiwara in '87 NJPW might be the match I differed with consensus on the most. I thought it was a meandering, boring mess even in comparison to the other UWF-in-NJPW matches.

 

Always had trouble with Benoit vs. Sasuke in the J-Cup Finals. As in, when I first watched it, in like 1999. I don't think I've ever seen it in isolation, it's always followed a run of other really good juniors matches, and it's never stood out. That card peaked with Sasuke vs. Liger, and when I watched the 3 Sasuke matches just recently I came away not being convinced it was even as good as Sasuke-Samurai.

 

Have to agree on the Bret-Owen cage match. I thought it was boring and overlong when I watched it live (though the post-match was aces) and I haven't been compelled to revisit it. I'm viewing the '94 Yearbook now and getting through that match again already sounds like a chore.

[goodhelmet]

In honor of the Hall of Fame tonight, Warrior vs. Savage from WM VII.

 

I gave my thoughts on the match on a podcast a P2B nation.

[Zenjo]

Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi - ROH - 2005

 

Oh man, the cosplay match. First time I truly realized that love for Japanese pro-wrestling had fucked up an entire generation of hardcore fans and workers. Joe cosplaying as an All Japan big 4 and the crowd cosplaying Korakuen Hall was embarrassing to watch. Total post-modern pro-wrestling. I hated this with a passion.

To be fair it did have the actual Kobashi rather than some indy guy cosplaying him. Unless you think 2005 Kobashi was a parody of himself...

 

 

For me it's any 'great' match involving ladders. Perhaps it's because I dislike climbing them myself? Or maybe I dislike climbing ladders because I've seen so many wrestlers fall off them? Or it could be that the matches are a series of contrived spots only separated by set-up time? I can take or leave tables. Chairs on the other hand, are cool.

[Smack2k]

Love it!

 

Smack -- I absolutely hear you on Joe/Kobashi. When you break that match down and think about it, and look at what was put out having removed yourself from the moment, it doesn't add up to all that much. But you know what? When I first watched that match on DVD I was jumping off the couch and screaming and I still love it today. All I've got for you is a super badass and indy darling who I loved to watch in person in one corner, against the most charismatic guy I've seen come out of Japan in the other. That doesn't mean everyone loves it, but it still clicks for me, even if I can't argue with those who don't see the magic.

 

Bret/Owen at Mania X was one of 2 others I considered starting things off with, but went with Steamboat/Savage because I thought this was superior on every front. Heat, execution, transitions, finish -- it wins across the board. Just doesn't measure up as an all timer for me.

 

 

I saw Joe v. Kobashi live and loved the hell out of it. ROH was just on fire at the time and the New Yorker was a terrific venue for a wrestling event. It was one of those "dream" matches that no one ever thought would happen.

 

That said, I understand people being underwhelmed with it after seeing/hearing the hype. It's probably my favorite match I've ever seen live but taking that experience out of it, it's merely decent-good and not some 5* classic.

 

 

I think the thing for me was that I hadn't watched Japanese wrestling yet at the time of the match and into 2006 when I got it…so the whole "dream match" thing didn't apply for me…I was a HUGE Joe fan and was LOVING him rising up to the upper echelon of wrestlers at the time, and after watching US matches of him vs. Punk and others in ROH and Daniels / AJ in TNA, I then saw this match..those two combinations made me really really not like this one…so I guess everything has context as to why.