Matches that are too long

[Childs]

See, I find the Kobashi-Kawada broadways impressive, because those guys really did have enough offense and stamina to cut a hard pace for 60 minutes. But necessary? I'd be hard-pressed to argue that.

[dawho5]

I thought they could have just had Kobashi go, say, 40 with Kawada at the time and it would have put him over. You have to remember thatat that point Kobashi was still well below Kawada in the pecking order. It seemed almost like a slap in the face to Kawada to not put Kobashi away.

 

I think that most of the problems I have with 2000s puro are based on match length. If they cut the majority of the "big" matches down to 15-20 minutes instead of 25-30, they could eliminate a lot of the excess nearfalls, noselling, one counts, strike exchanges, etc.

[Log]

The easiest way for a longer match to not seem too long is for it to have multiple falls. I know that booking a match to be a 2/3 or a 30-minute ironman is going to seem stupid if it's only a justification for the match to be that long (and it will take away the "surprise" of seeing a match that does go long), but I think that it's obvious that if the match can be explicitly segmented to some extent that it won't feel that long.

 

My pick for this topic is the Hart/Michaels ironman from WM 12. And I think the above quote is why. In some circles, it's considered a classic. It bores me to tears. If it had been the equivalent of say Rude/Steamboat stretched to 60 minutes, I think it'd be a ton better.

 

I still don't know who thought it was a good idea to go that long with no falls.

[Loss]

 

 

 

I think this is the best point. We shouldn't get too fixated on what a match is supposed to be, because there are so many approaches that work. It's up to the booker to give the wrestlers the right amount of time based on their place on the card, crowd interest and skill level, and it's up to wrestlers to wisely fill whatever time they are given.

 

Yes, but very few workers are able to fill 60 minutes without either going into long useless resthold and/or "dramatic" selling segments or equally useless endless series of spots and "dramatic" nearfalls. Sometimes smokes and mirrors and overbooking can work around that, like HHH vs Rock in 2000, but matches going really long is usually a sign of complacency in the modern days.

 

 

Matches don't really go long these days, so I don't know what you mean. HHH doesn't work full time anymore. It's extremely rare that a match exceeds 30 minutes in WWE, or even on the international scene.

 

I agree that it should be saved for special occasions, but I just want to make sure we aren't denying that those special occasions do exist.

[tim]

Are there any hour long matches that *wouldn't* have been better cut down to 30 or 40 minutes?

[El-P]

Matches don't really go long these days, so I don't know what you mean. HHH doesn't work full time anymore. It's extremely rare that a match exceeds 30 minutes in WWE, or even on the international scene.

 

 

By "modern days" I'm refering to basically the last 15 years.

[Ditch]

I vividly recall how pissed I was when I watched that Hero/Punk match, along with their 50 minute ladder match. The former has so little in the way of focus or drama, it's just filler and laying around. With the latter (heh), they want to mix 'ladder match' with 'technical epic', then the finish is a run-in. Aaaargh.

 

Thankfully both of them wised up.

[Timbo Slice]

Manami/Kyoko 5/7/95. Still don't know why that match length happened to this day.

[GSR]

The Night The Line Was Crossed . Terry Funk vs. Sabu vs. Shane Douglas. It went on for 60 minutes . It felt like 60 hours.

 

It may feel like that now, but I'd be surprised if anyone actually said that when they watched it for the first time nearly 20 years ago.

 

The one that first came to mind for me was the Bret Hart vs Bob Backlund submission match from Survivor Series 1994.

[soup23]

Are there any hour long matches that *wouldn't* have been better cut down to 30 or 40 minutes?

 

Flair vs. Steamboat : Clash 6

Hennig vs. Bockwinkle : From AWA

 

This are the two easiest ones for me to throw out because they have a multitude of other matches against each other on tape and the two above are my favorite matches of their respective series.

[Fantastic]

I thought they could have just had Kobashi go, say, 40 with Kawada at the time and it would have put him over. You have to remember thatat that point Kobashi was still well below Kawada in the pecking order. It seemed almost like a slap in the face to Kawada to not put Kobashi away.

 

Kawada's position on the pecking order went to hell in 1996 for publicly calling out Baba on his opposition to interpromotional events. It stands to reason that Kawada may have been arguing with Baba about these issues behind the scenes prior to going public with it. If that's the case, it's possible that the "slap in the face" booking was Baba simply asserting himself over Kawada for questioning his decisions.

 

Then again Motoko Baba always loved Kobashi, and Giant Baba himself was deeply invested in making Kobashi a star. It could also stand to reason that this was part of the process. Namely, it was far too soon for Kobashi to go over or draw against the "ace" - Misawa, so Kawada was the next best scenario.

 

No wonder Kawada always looks so pissed off. He spent most of his career being the "next best alternative".

[fxnj]

Things to keep in mind with Kobashi/Kawada 1/19/95

 

1. It happened 2 days after the nearby Kobe earthquake

2. The show nearly got cancelled

3. It wasn't televised

 

All those things tell me that a draw was probably booked at the last minute. With no TV and the area still in a pretty bad shape, I'd guess that the guys just wanted to give the fans something great and memorable rather than it being Baba trying to cut the legs from under Kawada of whatever.

[stomperspc]

 

Are there any hour long matches that *wouldn't* have been better cut down to 30 or 40 minutes?

 

Flair vs. Steamboat : Clash 6

Hennig vs. Bockwinkle : From AWA

 

This are the two easiest ones for me to throw out because they have a multitude of other matches against each other on tape and the two above are my favorite matches of their respective series.

 

 

That's a difficult question to answer because we don't know how the wrestlers would have adjusted to less time. It is nice to think they would have just cut out any filler and kept all of the best parts, but that might not be the case. There are too many variables. Maybe if Flair and Steamboat spend a little less time working and establishing the headlock at the start of the Clash 6 match, the rest of the match doesn't flow as well as it actually did. Maybe the ending lacks the drama it had if they aren't pushing up against a 60-minute time limit (even if the 60-minute time limit was replaced with a 45-minute one). Or maybe they would have adjusted just fine and ended up with an equally strong match that carried the added benefit of being compact. I just don't think we can say with any sort of certainty that any match would be better or worse if it lasted longer or shorter than it did.

[iamthedoctor]

 

 

 

I think this is the best point. We shouldn't get too fixated on what a match is supposed to be, because there are so many approaches that work. It's up to the booker to give the wrestlers the right amount of time based on their place on the card, crowd interest and skill level, and it's up to wrestlers to wisely fill whatever time they are given.

 

Yes, but very few workers are able to fill 60 minutes without either going into long useless resthold and/or "dramatic" selling segments or equally useless endless series of spots and "dramatic" nearfalls. Sometimes smokes and mirrors and overbooking can work around that, like HHH vs Rock in 2000, but matches going really long is usually a sign of complacency in the modern days.

 

 

For me I did enjoy that Iron man match same goes for the Bret/HBK one alough modern day non Iron man types I think HBK/Cena from Raw that time they went a hour was way too long for me.

[Ryan Faulconer]

The first two torneo cibernetico matches from CMLL in 1997 were both two of the longest lucha matches I've ever seen. Neither feels like close to an hour of wrestling. They are - without any hyperbole - super duper fantastic.

 

Negro Casas/Black Warrior/Felino/Mano Negra/El Dandy/Scorpio Jr./Silver King vs. El Hijo del Santo/Shocker/El Texano/Mr. Niebla/La Fiera/Dr. Wagner Jr./Mascara Magica (3/18/97)

 

Ultimo Dragon/Negro CasasAtlantis/Shocker/El Dandy/Mascara Magica/La Fiera/Brazo De Oro vs. Felino/El Hijo Del Santo/Dr. Wagner Jr./Black Warrior/Satanico/Scorpio Jr./Silver King Kevin Quinn (4/18/97)

 

Chikara has put on some ridiculously long cibernetico matches over the years. I've only seen 2009 and 2010 so it is probably unfair for me to judge but...it looked like they intentionally wanted to go longer than the longest CMLL cibernetico. Then they go and do later ones that are 70 or more minutes. In CMLL it works. Matches that long from the Chikara experience level is just goofy.

 

I did enjoy the 90 minute Hero/Punk match at the time. That's not really anything I want to go back and see again now. The 70 minute Bryan Danielson/Austin Aries match and the first Samoa Joe/CM Punk 60 minute draw were actually pretty excrutiating to experience in real time. They had nothing going for them other than the novelty of the time limit and the ROH show wanting to make up for wrestlers not being at that Dayton(?) show. A story going around back then was that Bryan wanted to do some sixty minute draws for the first two falls - IIRC. There's something like a five minute rest in the middle of the Aries/Danielson match. The mid match angle was just the crappiest icing on the crap cake.

 

Danielson is great and all but that match...was overreaching by a LOT.

[CaptCabana]

The 2005 CHIKARA Cibernetico goes, if my math is right, 1 hour and 44 minutes. The FIRST elimination is not until 50 minutes into the match. Too much.

[victory]

The two that come to mind would be Rude vs. Flair from Fall Brawl 93 and " The Chicago Street Fight" from Uncensored 96 with LOD vs. Booker and Sting.

 

The Fall Brawl match goes about 30 plus minutes which on paper sounds like it would be great considering the talent. Unfortunately the length is what hurts it. They seem to change directions several times where it appears they have another match within a match if that makes sense. The match never goes anywhere, which makes it seem to last forever.

 

I watched the Uncensored match recently on Netflix. This match is a 30 minute street fight which shouldn't of been allowed that kind of time. The violence is super tame unless you like crotch shots. A street fight in general should never be too long IMO due to the style of match. In this case with it being so weak the long time makes the match really drag. 10 or 12 minutes would of been sufficient.

[Kevin Ridge]

Feel like a lot of those Williams/Gordy tag matches from early 90's go a good 15 minutes too long. Those are really difficult to get through on rewatch. More so is those AJPW/NOAH main events that would go overly long. Always thought they needed to mix things up by throwing in a main event around the 10-15 minute mark. Ogawa could sneak out a quick victory but most of the time it was the same old stuff of going 25-30 minutes. But really the thing that came to my mind is the TV shows in general. I much prefer to go through the hour long shows. Going to two and three hours becomes a chore to get through.