El Hijo del Santo

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[Loss]

A definite contender for the best luchador in history. I wouldn't laugh at a ballot that had him number one overall either. To be fair though, I think people who complain about Flair formula should check out some Santo singles matches, because they're going to notice a lot of patterns in those. His best stuff is as good as just about anyone's in wrestling. Outstanding mat worker, to the point I'd even rank him ahead of guys for whom that's a supposed calling card like Blue Panther. When trios matches weren't really storyline-driven, I found that he often ended up falling into the background. He probably has a higher quantity of great matches than anyone in lucha libre (or most outside of it), but that number is also slightly misleading because he has the benefit of being in some fabulous trios matches where he mostly hugs the apron. I say all that and he'll probably end up my #1 overall among the Mexican candidates. He's neck and neck with Casas, so that could flip based on a compelling argument. There are guys like Dandy and Satanico who peaked much higher for short periods of time, but I'd probably put them below Santo because they weren't really consistently great.

[Graham Crackers]

My feelings about Santito are similar to my feelings on Misawa. I can't picture a top ten without him and he could sneak into a top five but I don't see him as a candidate for number 1. He does rely on formula but wow, what an incredible formula. He's easily the best high flyer of all time and he has plenty of classic technical bouts and brawls to boot.

 

His main flaws are that he tends to eat up lesser workers on the mat in title matches, he never fully embraced his heel run, and his time in AAA is disappointing.

[ohtani's jacket]

His formula worked because he had such beautiful execution on his signature spots. I don't think there's any way you can get tired of Santo's dives. Having said that, his rep is helped a lot by his father. I realise it was a difficult legacy to live up to, but on the flipside there's an immediate attraction to the gimmick and for many people he's a gateway drug to real Mexican lucha libre. I know we shouldn't penalise guys for being gateway drugs, but the truth is once you start getting into lucha you realise there are a lot of good guys; they're just not as heralded as Santo. In order not to hold that against Santo, it's necessary to find the truly great Santo performances and unfortunately his best period appears to have been in the late 80s and early 90s where very little of his work made tape. His AAA years are a waste and along with the messy Casas feud took a huge chunk out of his prime years.

 

I don't know if I'd say he was outstanding on the mat. He was very good in certain situations, but I don't think it was his calling card. I also don't see an inconsistency in Satanico's work rather a slump that came with age, but that's a side issue.

[Eduardo]

I've seen a lot of great workers and stars live, and I had more fun watching El Hijo Del Santo than anyone else.

To further elaborate on the formula, I was just telling a friend of mine the other day, who I've gone with to see Santo a handful of times, that a very good, Santo-formula match feels pretty special live in a way that is hard to describe. You know what's coming next, you see the rudos getting in position for the tope de cristo and the plancha, but fuck, they are graceful every single time and everyone in attendance loves it. When the match is over, I've seen kids climbing into the ring to celebrate with Santo, and once even saw Santo literally be carried off of a fan's shoulders to the back. The whole experience feels like you saw something incredible.

When Santo made his retirement announcement earlier in the year, tomk made a great point online. tomk said something like how he thought the world would be culturally worse without Santo touring around, performing his style of lucha libre all over Mexico, U.S. and the world.

EDIT: Just saw OJ's post above mine, agree with the execution line and how one can never get tired of his spots.

[Eduardo]

As far as criticisms, any thoughts on his 1989 period in EMLL? Fans turned on him bad, and he was getting booed out of Arena Mexico while working with All Star. Fans weren't accepting him at all.

[ohtani's jacket]

Did we ever get to the bottom of why fans turned on him? I can't see it affecting his legacy too much any more than the annoying booking with the heel turn will.

[Eduardo]

Never found out. Maybe Jose, Steve or Kris know. I need to rewatch those matches and listen more closely to the commentating in case anything interesting is said.

[WingedEagle]

Can people point out a few representative Santo matches ranging from a good, run of the mill performance to some classics? Preferably looking for ones that aren't already in the Match Discussion Archives. I've watched so little lucha compared with US and Japan that I can't fairly place someone like him, but have always enjoyed his work and found his timing and pacing particularly excellent in that he seems to work slower, but no less sudden, than just about anyone in lucha.

[Graham Crackers]

 

I've seen a lot of great workers and stars live, and I had more fun watching El Hijo Del Santo than anyone else.

To further elaborate on the formula, I was just telling a friend of mine the other day, who I've gone with to see Santo a handful of times, that a very good, Santo-formula match feels pretty special live in a way that is hard to describe. You know what's coming next, you see the rudos getting in position for the tope de cristo and the plancha, but fuck, they are graceful every single time and everyone in attendance loves it. When the match is over, I've seen kids climbing into the ring to celebrate with Santo, and once even saw Santo literally be carried off of a fan's shoulders to the back. The whole experience feels like you saw something incredible.

Yeah, when I saw him live it felt like I was in the presence of royalty. It certainly helped that he worked his ass off and performed all of his signature dives in that little New Jersey night club I saw him wrestle in. I don't blame Atlantis and Ultimo Guerrero for taking a night off when I saw them wrestle at an untaped show last year but that's the kind of thing that definitely puts Santo ahead of the pack for me.

[Childs]

He wasn't as versatile or as stirring as Dandy or Satanico, respectively. And speaking to Loss' point, I think Satanico's lesser body of work is more about a lack of footage from his peak years than anything else. Same might be partially true for Dandy, though I sense he was genuinely less consistent. Anyway, Santo will probably make my top 25 for the incredible weight of his career but fall short of the top 10 due to the relative lack of height. I will say though, it was fucking badass to see him hit his spots perfectly in the cramped upper room of a Queens dance club. Professionalism, they call that

[Phil Schneider]

I agree that Santo's case is super helped by being able to see him live, I have seen him every where from Arena Mexico to an Arena in Atlanta to the aforementioned Queens dance club and his presence is something truly special. Him and Hashimoto are neck in neck for the most electric live performers I have ever seen

[BillThompson]

Watching the first Santo matches on the 80s set confirmed him as a possible #1 for me. There's a fluidity to his style that is believable in a way that fluid wrestling often isn't. I'm not really looking to knock Christopher Daniels, but too often I find his stuff to be so fluid that it's too choreographed. Santo has the same level of fluidity, but he makes it look so real, and so earned that I believe he's really that fluid and that graceful and not just taking part in a well choreographed dance. The 80s stuff also shows his inventiveness, like how he reaches for a behind the back arm drag during a running the ropes exchange, a move I've never seen anyone try since.

[Timbo Slice]

Probably a Top 10 guy for me. If not there, Top 20. To me, I can't think of anyone else who personified lucha libre. He's always a treat to watch, even with him not showing up as much on tape in his later years. Wouldn't be surprised if someone put him #1.

[goodhelmet]

With a couple of exceptions my Top Ten may just be a bunch of Luchadores and Memphis guys. Santo will be one of them.

[Matt D]

Have you written about Santo at length anywhere Will? I'd be curious to read that if so

[goodhelmet]

No. I'll probably end up doing a podcast on him though one day.

[Tim Cooke]

8/29/86 vs El Espanto Jr. (Mask vs mask) - probably the one match from the 80's that I would go out of my way to see from Santo

[ohtani's jacket]

Plenty of thoughts on Santo here -- http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-426-el-hijo-del-santo-goat/

[cubbymark]

El Hijo Del Santo is such a privilege to watch live. I got to see him once at the Congress Theater in Chicago almost ten years ago. The place is an absolute dump, the show started late, security was lax if non-existent with fans running up to the ring after every match, but Santo went out there and busted his ass. Seeing him do his trademark tope was pretty amazing even then.

 

My opinion of him may have fallen a bit over the years in part due to the "Axel-Nieto Del Santo" situation and his current "neck injury retirement" screwing over some of the Todo X El Todo indy guys, but as far as lucha guys go, he'd be the front runner of that style with Negro Casas being really close behind.

[W2BTD]

Watching the first Santo matches on the 80s set confirmed him as a possible #1 for me. There's a fluidity to his style that is believable in a way that fluid wrestling often isn't. I'm not really looking to knock Christopher Daniels, but too often I find his stuff to be so fluid that it's too choreographed. Santo has the same level of fluidity, but he makes it look so real, and so earned that I believe he's really that fluid and that graceful and not just taking part in a well choreographed dance. The 80s stuff also shows his inventiveness, like how he reaches for a behind the back arm drag during a running the ropes exchange, a move I've never seen anyone try since.

 

Not trying to derail things, but I'm so glad you made that Daniels point. He's so smooth and fluid, that it's a negative. He's actually too good. I would love to take credit for this, but I can't because it wasn't my thought, but somebody once told me that they thought Daniels best gimmick would be a wrestling robot. I thought that was pretty brilliant.

[Tim Cooke]

I don't think Daniels being smooth makes him "too good." But that's another debate.

 

My favorite lucha feud is Santo vs. Espanto Jr. We have as much, if not more of Dandy/Satanico, similar footage for Chicana/MS1, etc but this feud still feels like it produced once in a lifetime matches.

 

Here's what we have documented on tape:

 

3 singles matches (1986 Mask vs Mask, 1988 Title Match, 1992 Title Match)

a couple of trios matches (with Espanto first as Santo Negro and then Pentagon Jr.)

and a tag from 1985.

 

All of this stretches 10 years and god knows what we don't have on tape.

 

When I first got into lucha through the AAA mid-90's trios matches, I thought Santo and Blue Panther were the best pairing for pure lucha. Today, I think it's pretty easily the Espanto feud that is the height of Santo's career. Santo will probably be my highest non-Rey Jr. luchador on this list. Him or Casas - to be determined.

[ohtani's jacket]

Have you seen this, TIm?

 

 

It degenerates into a cheap brawl like a lot of Tijuana/Monterrey stuff, and Katana is a ridiculous gimmick for Leon Chino, but the first Santo vs. Espanto exchange is quality.

[Tim Cooke]

Yep, saw this the other day. Santo and Espanto clearly had some routines and regular spots but god damn if those spots aren't amazing every time out

[Jimmy Redman]

How high are people going on Santo? That isn't a challenge this time, I'm just curious.

 

He MAY end up my highest ranked luchador. A transcendent babyface with an aura few can match. Add to that his beautiful high flying and timeless spots. Add to that his ability to project violence at the same time and not come off as light. Add to that his longevity and willingness to hurl his body around for decades on end, when he could well coast on his name. Add to that the matches with Casas, Dandy, Espanto, Panther, Gringos Locos, Psicosis...quick, recommend me some more Santito!

 

Anyways, he rules.