Jushin "Thunder" Liger

[BillThompson]

It's those by the numbers performances of which I speak. There's no denying, at least for me, the highs, but he did have a habit of phoning in good performances an awful lot.

[Childs]

I misinterpreted your original post; your reservation is a fair one and probably the same factor that will keep Liger out of my top 10 and maybe my top 20.

[stomperspc]

FWIW, I think Liger’s had a pretty good 2014 in terms of singles matches particularly when you factor in that this is his 30^th year in wrestling and he will turn 50 years rather shortly.

 

I think he’s figured out who he is at this stage of his career, which is a legendary wrestler with a distinct (and largely undiminished) aura about him who can give a rub to anyone he shares a ring with. Maybe he was overdue in figuring that out, but he’s got it now. At the same time, he’s not necessarily resting on his laurels. I have seen a half dozen singles matches from him this year and while there are obviously some repeated spots that run throughout, he’s also not one of those older guys just going through his classic same spots in the same order. There is still clearly a lot of thought put into his matches depending on who he is wrestling, who he is wrestling in front of, ect.

 

The Adam Cole NY ROH match was about Liger doing some of his trademarks spots that he can still physically pull off in front of a crowd that he knew wanted to see that stuff and would appreciate it. However, it was also about Liger selling the leg work great and putting Adam Cole over clean via the figure four. The Ricochet BOSJ match told a “you can’t teach experience” story and Liger was really good getting that across. The KUSHIDA BOSJ match had Liger on both ends of limb work (selling and dishing it out) and both were tremendously effective. I just got done watching his match versus Tommy End from Germany two weeks ago. End works a high impact style which isn’t what Liger is best suited for at this point in his career, but he still adjusts enough to make the match work. He takes some high impact stuff and sells it like death, to compensate for not being able to take a lot of it (which of course almost anyone young or old could benefit from doing). He adapts to End’s kickboxing gimmick in a few subtle ways that make the match feel like a Tommy End match more than a Jushin Liger match. That’s pretty impressive for someone with 30 years in wrestling. Most veterans would just make the young guy adapt to them but Liger didn’t in that in this match.

 

None of these matches are must-see or anything and honestly, I am not sure how much Liger’s 2014 work should really impact his position on these lists either positively or negatively, but thought it was worth pointing out in light of some of the comments about his post-peak work in this thread (some of which I don’t really disagree with).

[shoe]

The guy has a shot at my top 10. He's a guy who got a generation of people in the 90's into tape trading. After Superbrawl 2 I was amazed by him and got me involved in a hobby that I love.

[Alan4L]

FWIW, I think Liger’s had a pretty good 2014 in terms of singles matches particularly when you factor in that this is his 30^th year in wrestling and he will turn 50 years rather shortly.

 

I think he’s figured out who he is at this stage of his career, which is a legendary wrestler with a distinct (and largely undiminished) aura about him who can give a rub to anyone he shares a ring with. Maybe he was overdue in figuring that out, but he’s got it now. At the same time, he’s not necessarily resting on his laurels. I have seen a half dozen singles matches from him this year and while there are obviously some repeated spots that run throughout, he’s also not one of those older guys just going through his classic same spots in the same order. There is still clearly a lot of thought put into his matches depending on who he is wrestling, who he is wrestling in front of, ect.

 

The Adam Cole NY ROH match was about Liger doing some of his trademarks spots that he can still physically pull off in front of a crowd that he knew wanted to see that stuff and would appreciate it. However, it was also about Liger selling the leg work great and putting Adam Cole over clean via the figure four. The Ricochet BOSJ match told a “you can’t teach experience” story and Liger was really good getting that across. The KUSHIDA BOSJ match had Liger on both ends of limb work (selling and dishing it out) and both were tremendously effective. I just got done watching his match versus Tommy End from Germany two weeks ago. End works a high impact style which isn’t what Liger is best suited for at this point in his career, but he still adjusts enough to make the match work. He takes some high impact stuff and sells it like death, to compensate for not being able to take a lot of it (which of course almost anyone young or old could benefit from doing). He adapts to End’s kickboxing gimmick in a few subtle ways that make the match feel like a Tommy End match more than a Jushin Liger match. That’s pretty impressive for someone with 30 years in wrestling. Most veterans would just make the young guy adapt to them but Liger didn’t in that in this match.

 

None of these matches are must-see or anything and honestly, I am not sure how much Liger’s 2014 work should really impact his position on these lists either positively or negatively, but thought it was worth pointing out in light of some of the comments about his post-peak work in this thread (some of which I don’t really disagree with).

glad you mentioned the Tommy match as I too was really impressed by it. Liger totally hangs with him.

[Shining Wiz]

Just watched a tag with Liger and Mutoh teaming against Takada and Sano from'96. What really stood out is that Liger was by far the best shoot grappler of the bunch. Or, at the very least, the best at making his worked grappling look good. This surprised me a lot, and more about how good and sound Liger looked rather than how bad the others looked doing it.

[El-P]

He's probably the first japanese wrestler I was a fan of. Not because of WCW. We didn't get WCW before 96. But we got NJ on Eurosport, with lots of bad gaijin matches (that Vader vs Gigante match was shown all the time, for some reason). And some great stuff. Easy to become a Liger fan back then. I got bored with junior wrestling in the early 00's when I went through TV blocks, on tape bought from Jeff Lynch. At that point, I'd rather watch Choshu vs Hash than Liger vs Benoit. Liger is the greatest wrestler whose style I haven't cared for in more than a decade. would be #8 or #9. Oh, Yamada was great before the outfit, but he really beneficiated from the mask.

[WingedEagle]

Bumping this as he was mentioned in the Benoit thread and there seems to be zero talk for someone that may be a legit top 10 candidate for many. He's got big performances going back to the Yamada days without the mask in the '86 Gauntlet and probably elsewhere that's not top of mind, right through to the Sano series, Samurai, Ohtani, Kanemoto, Benoit, the NOAH feud, Sasuke, Pillman, Hashimoto, and undoubtedly countless others.

 

Has anyone revisited his career along the way or have any new thoughts on him? One of the juniors who almost without fail holds up incredibly well with a variety of opponents and styles. Whether its limb work with Sano, hateful brawls with NOAH, flying with Sasuke or working the mat with Pillman there's little in his library that's lost steam over the years.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd like to request Chad to do a show with Steven on this.

 

Chad is probably the highest profile Liger pimper.

[Loss]

I would love to be on such a show as well.

[WingedEagle]

Make it happen.

[jushin muta liger]

Would love to hear that show. I'm biased towards Liger (hence my name). My personal goal is to look at his Mexico stuff before this thing is over because he liked working the style.

[Grimmas]

Making the Case will have Charles and maybe Chad on it soon. Once schedules align.

[GOTNW]

I am going on a Liger binge right now but instinctively I'd rate Sano, Ohtani and Kanemoto over him.

[Childs]

I guess I could see the case for Sano based on versatility and Ohtani based on peak. But Kanemoto? I need to hear that explanation.

[GOTNW]

I expected Sano would be the one I'd have to explain, looking strictly at guys that never moved up I'd probably have Kanemoto as the best junior wrestler ever. Last time he still wrestled in a promotion I paid attention to he was producing MOTYCs against Hayato and Kazuki Hashimoto and putting in great performances any time I'd watch him. Peak, consistency, longevity, performance quality-he ticks all the boxes.

[Childs]

I actually liked later Kanemoto better than '90s Kanemoto. Younger Koji was really good when he focused on being a hard-hitting dick but much less so when he was trying to be spectacular. Honestly though, I can't think of any area where he rates ahead of Liger--offense, selling, projecting his character, great matches, duration as a top worker, ability to get over in different places. That said, I'm happy to see a full-throated defense of Kanemoto, who hasn't been talked about a ton for this project.

[Loss]

The best thing about Liger is that he had a deserved rep as a great high flyer, and that played a huge part in getting him over. But he actually didn't fly all that much, and it had zero to do with him being great. Liger was mostly about matwork and the role of the ace.

[ohtani's jacket]

I watched the 8/92 Liger vs. Benoit match, which is all right and everything, but after a while I began wondering: "well, what's the difference between Liger popping up when Benoit's climbing the turnbuckles and Angle doing it?" And then you start to wonder how the match is any worse than Toyota bout or anything else synonymous with the 90s. People talk a lot about Tiger Mask's stuff not holding up, but a decade on the same is surely true of 90s workrate heroes. I realise there's been a backlash to the juniors style over the years, but Liger somehow remains immune.

[GOTNW]

 

I realise there's been a backlash to the juniors style over the years, but Liger somehow remains immune.

His versatility and adaptability would have to have been a factor in that. But I'd absolutely agree with the Benoit matches being unimpressive.

[Childs]

I watched the 8/92 Liger vs. Benoit match, which is all right and everything, but after a while I began wondering: "well, what's the difference between Liger popping up when Benoit's climbing the turnbuckles and Angle doing it?" And then you start to wonder how the match is any worse than Toyota bout or anything else synonymous with the 90s. People talk a lot about Tiger Mask's stuff not holding up, but a decade on the same is surely true of 90s workrate heroes. I realise there's been a backlash to the juniors style over the years, but Liger somehow remains immune.

 

I don't think he's immune. I'd be stunned if he finishes as high as he did 10 years ago, but he's helped by the fact that people still really liked his best stuff as they went through the NJ '80s set and the yearbooks.

[Grimmas]

I watched the 8/92 Liger vs. Benoit match, which is all right and everything, but after a while I began wondering: "well, what's the difference between Liger popping up when Benoit's climbing the turnbuckles and Angle doing it?" And then you start to wonder how the match is any worse than Toyota bout or anything else synonymous with the 90s. People talk a lot about Tiger Mask's stuff not holding up, but a decade on the same is surely true of 90s workrate heroes. I realise there's been a backlash to the juniors style over the years, but Liger somehow remains immune.

Benoit is the link there. He brings out the best in people in an attempt to have a crazy fast paced exciting, but not logical and great match.

[Loss]

Please be careful not to get so wrapped up in that point that when Benoit is doing something to the contrary, you can't see it. We have got to drop these "this wrestler is always this way" narratives that I've seen dominating a lot of conversation around here lately. It eventually creates a template where the conversation automates itself.

[Dylan Waco]

I've been thinking about this over the last few days and tweeted this early, but I honestly think if Liger had the exact same career he had, but it occurred on national U.S. television, he'd be on nearly everyone's short list for number one.

 

The guy was both an innovative flyer, an underrated grappler, a super expressive worker (shockingly so for a guy in a mask), and someone who could work effectively against a very broad range of opponents. On top of that he has volume that rivals anyone. I remember loving his Young Lions Cup Finals match in 1985 and thinking it was one of the sleeper great New Japan matches of the 80's. As Yamada in the period immediately after this he was very good young worker, who had good or better matches more often than not. By the time he put the hood on he was pretty close to a genius worker, with Sano feud being an all timer. He had very good to great matches with virtually every junior of note during the period from 87ish to 97ish. He also got over in the U.S. in a huge way to the point where he is still a big novelty star here on a level that can sometimes lead to amusing results (Liger being more over than most of the top NJPW stars on shows they've done together). You could argue the hasn't been consistently great in a decade or longer, but I also think it's very hard to argue he's been less than good. The few times he's been given chances to shine over the last few years he usually steps, including very good to great matches v. Kushida (the best match of his career by far in my view), Ricochet, Tiger Mask IV, and others.

 

30 years as a good worker at minimum, with probably at least half of that time in the great camp is an awful lot. Especially for a guy who was mechanically brilliant, and great as both a face and a heel. I'm going to go back and rewatch some of his high end stuff in the next few weeks. He seems like someone who deserves much more absolute top tier consideration than he has gotten.

[Tim Cooke]

I initially had him in the 30's on my list and fairly quickly realized that is selling him WAY short. Don't have my spreadsheet in front of me but he's top 20 now. His match with Virus a month ago made me think he could easily move to Mexico and work maestro matches with Navarro, Terry, Solar, etc. for another 5 years