Ted DiBiase

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[JerryvonKramer]

I feel like I've said more on DiBiase than I care to in a lifetime. Grimmas, goodhelmet and I took a five-hour look at his career back in the summer, so if you haven't listened to that, I could point you that way.

 

If I was to take a Matt D-style hollistic look at Ted the worker, I'd highlight five aspects of his work that are generally outstanding:

 

1. Intensity of offense.

2. Bumping and feeding.

3. Execution.

4. Character work (i.e. in the ring).

5. Involvement in legendary feuds and angles (in and out of the ring).

 

Ted is at least a 7/10 in all of those areas, and arguably in some he's an 8 or a 9 verging on "top 10 ever in the category".

 

A few things that people might overlook:

 

- Ted's early career from the 70s to about 1983 is routinely overlooked. Partly this is because we have no footage from his time in Amarillo and only glimpses of the full picture in St. Louis and GCW, where he spent a lot of his time. The best look we get at him is in WWF in 1979, where there is more footage available.

 

What comes through in the Ted we see on the GCW, St. Louis and WWF TV is that he's a firey babyface who works at a pace and intensity that is very unusual for the time. I think it's fair to say that in the context of late 70s WWF, he's "ahead of his time".

 

By 1981, Ted was already being hyped a lot by Dave Meltzer as one of the best workers in the US. If you read or listen to Larry Matysik's accounts of NWA discussions of the period, or indeed to some of his fellow workers, Ted was seen at that time as being a possible future world champion, and one of the very best workers in the business.

 

If I was to make an analogy, I'd say that Ted in about 1981 was similar to pre-WWE indies Daniel Bryan, as a guy who was pimped to do big things by the "smart crowd" and those in the business.

 

I mention this only to highlight the fact that from what we can glimpse on tape in matches against people like Pat Patterson, we can see some evidence that this hype was justified. You can see the elements that would make him a star in Mid-South already: intense offense, great bumping and selling, great execution.

 

I will point you to the now almost-mythical "Battle of Atlantic City" where Ted tags with Andre and absolutely sells his arse off against sub-par opposition (Baron Scicluna and Jerry Valiant). My fellow Titans complained that this match was overlong at 30 minutes, and boring. But I beg to differ, and encourage people to give it a second look. It is probably the longest match of Ted's we have on tape from before 1983.

 

- He didn't disgrace himself in Japan. Sometimes I get the impression that PWO / DVDR stalwarts see Ted's time in All Japan as a knock on him. He's tagging with Stan Hansen and routinely facing quality opposition like Tenryu and Jumbo. The argument might go that Ted often comes off as the 4th best man in these matches. I've even seen some ridiculous write up by certain people of Ted's single matches with Tenryu that talk about them as "carry jobs", as if DiBiase was the sort of guy that needed to be carried by anyone.

 

If you watch Ted's performances in Japan, you see a guy that is put in a spot (Stan Hansen's partner) and plays that role with competence and without embarrassing himself. Ted isn't "exposed" in Japan, he just ... well, he just doesn't shine. Fine, but he's in there with some of the best ever workers and if you watch the matches he generally sells his arse off and brings high artillery offense, while allowing Hansen pretty much all of the limelight. He's selfless and workmanlike, which aren't qualities that make you standout in a context like that.

 

In general, I think the PWO / DVDR reassessment of Ted in Japan went a bit too far in tearing him down. I mean, I get it, you want him to prove that he's the best in the world, and he falls short, but it's not like he's bad or brings his end of those matches down. And they are good to great matches. They just aren't Jumbo and Tenryu vs. Choshu and Yatsu. But what is?

 

- Finally, while most of Ted's great matches came in Mid-South, and will be the bedrock of any vote on him, I will maintain that during his run in WWF, he had plenty of fine performances. His character work in the ring is often exceptional. The series with Savage in 1988 would make the cut on his 20-match "greatest hits" DVD. If you watch the squashes he worked on TV, he had that same fire and intensity he always had. Even if you watch some of his Money Inc stuff, he's still a nasty fucker when he wants to be.

 

But WWF-style being what it was, he was mostly called on to do the basics right, bump around a lot, and make inferior workers look like (if you'll pardon the pun) a million dollars.

 

Matt D and I (in)famously went back and forth on the Ted vs. Big Bossman comparison in WWF.

 

I still think claims that Bossman was better worker or "played his role better" in WWF to be completely laughable. Bossman was brought in to work as a dominant monster heel and then face, Ted as a chickenshit heel who mainly gets his arse kicked from pillar to post while occasionally hiding behind his bodyguard. As such, Ted was doing his job. It's not exactly his fault if he's working truncated heat sequences because the boss wants the babyface to shine.

 

And even despite that, Ted was trusted as the consummate ring general. If you need a guy like Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels to step up from tags to singles and work longer matches, then Ted's often the man to "bring them up". See also his role in the early career of Dustin Rhodes. Do you know who was never given that role? Bossman. Why? Because Bossman wasn't a broomstick worker. Fuck, DiBiase made VIRGIL one of the hottest acts of 1991. VIRGIL. Think about that, fucking Virgil. What stars did Bossman make? Also, go and watch the 1990 Royal Rumble again and listen to the crowd on his elimination.

 

I feel that the role of "ring general" has declined in the eyes of some fans. Yes, yes, it's all well and good reassessing guys like One Man Gang and Earthquake -- and I agree that the Scott Keiths of this world were generally idiotic about guys like that -- but let's not be stupid now. A great ring general is almost like a quarterback in wrestling, and Ted was one of them until the day he retired.

 

His WWF years aren't his peak as a worker, but the idea that the MDM run is a real knock against him is one that I find untenable. I'm not making excuses for him: there are occasions where you might say he rests on his laurels. And there's no getting around it, the matches with Jake are disappointing, when they had the potential to be classics.

 

--------

 

All of this tells me that Ted, if you consider his whole career, rather than just peak, is not quite in the first tier, but should be in the pack behind that in the 30-60 sort of range.

 

I think Arn Anderson is a good benchmark and a key decision for me is where Ted goes in relation to Arn. Ted had more opportunities to shine in his career than Arn, and I'd say has a comparable amount of great matches to his name. And like Arn, he is consistent at working those matches in the **1/2 to ***1/2 star range, often against sub-standard opposition, on your average card.

 

I feel like Ted is going to be a casualty for a lot of people for "trendier" picks. Just remember that these polls only come round once a decade and that there's no need to show off in front of your hipster mates.

[Shining Wiz]

Great write up.

 

I already figured DiBiase as a shoe in for my list, so you're preaching to the choir in this case, but a really nice overview of his career/skills.

[Matt D]

See, wasn't that fun, Parv?

[BigBadMick]

Nicely argued.

 

I never had a problem with AJPW Ted, thought he was fine there.

[ohtani's jacket]

You sure know how to talk some shit about DiBiase, Parv. You should have been David Cameron's spin doctor.

[JerryvonKramer]

Huh? Care to elaborate?

[ohtani's jacket]

It was a joke.

[soup23]

Good write up Parv, but I don't really like the Arn analogy.

 

Ted has some absolute phenomenal stuff and performances throughout his career but there is a sense of him taking nights off at times watching the footage. Say what you will about him being in the ring with 3 all - timers, his intensity wasn't at the level of the others for a ton of that All Japan footage. Was he terrible in those matches? No, but he didn't have a stand out performance to me on that entire set with the exception of maybe the Tenryu 83 match which I think I am higher on than you. Arn was very consistently good in most matches and seemed to be able to rise a formulaic match to great levels at times. An example is the Clash 17 match where him stooging and losing his shit for Steamboat makes that storyline for the entire match.

 

I don't see his MDM as a detraction in this poll but I also don't think he has that all time feud that others like Savage, Tito, and Valentine had. He certainly helped Virgil in that feud but Piper also helped and that is more padding for a nice short highlight of his run than a huge plus to me.

 

Ted has more highs in bigger positions, but I would argue Arn was much more consistent. Both will make my top 100.

[JerryvonKramer]

It was a joke.

Sorry, OJ, as Johnny and Pete found sometimes I have a real sense-of-humour fail when it comes to Ted.

[JerryvonKramer]

Chad, I think you are right that Ted has bigger highs and lower lows than Arn, who as I said is Mr. Consistency. But in the overall scheme of things, I think you could say that Ted is generally consistent. You don't find him having real stinkers like a Rick Rude or even a guy like Steamboat. I think the worst Steamboat matches I've seen are worse that the worst Ted ones by some distnace. So, yes, greater variance than Arn, but but much less so than some other people.

 

On Ted in All Japan, I agree he doesn't have that standout performance you'd hope for, but his job was to play second fiddle to Hansen, and Ted is generally the sort of guy who will just do what is asked of him and no more -- which is probably one reason why he's not quite a tier 1 guy. He showed he good hang in All Japan, but did no more than that.

 

RE: MDM, his all-time feud I'd argue was Hogan. It was buying the title. Difficulty is that so much of it happened outside of the ring. Almost all of Ted's best WWF moments are outside of the ring, and I guess that just shows up some of the limitations of a poll with this set of criteria. But there are others -- Dusty especially, Jake, someone like Vince McMahon -- who it will hurt a lot more than it hurts Ted.

 

The only thing I wonder about is whether certain guys -- Lawler, for example -- secretly get a legup from their out-of-ring stuff, storylines and angles almost through osmosis. I'm not saying they do, but sometimes I wonder. You don't see people making the same sort of hard delination on Lawler as they do for other guys, and that's possibly because people seem to have more affection for cool niche underrated Memphis than they do for mainstream overexposed overrated WWF.

[Childs]

The argument from me was never that Ted was bad in Japan, merely that he didn't pop off the screen compared to the superstars around him. That's not a knock on him, but it matters a little when trying to slot him on a GOAT list. Given that Parv's not arguing him as a top-10 candidate, I don't think there's any big gap of opinion on the issue.

 

I do wish we had more of his early babyface stuff, because I agree that played a part in the sterling reputation he carried in the '80s.

[goodhelmet]

The way Fujinami was the king of New Japan, Lawler in Memphis, Jumbo in All Japan and Bock in AWA... Dibiase was the Mid South king. So many great matches in that short span alone that he will be on the list. He was also my favorite guy as a kid pre-MDM. That will factor in somehow.

[KrisZ]

Ted DiBiase has one of the greatest babyface turns of all-time in 1985 and I fucking loved the babyface run after that in 1986 which his AJPW tours hurt his momentum though because instead of being the guy who should be the UWF Champ he was going back and forth and wasn't able to be depended on with the strap. The best part about DiBiase in that run was that even though he turned face he didn't altar his style as he still worked the same and then when he broke out the black glove it was treated like OH FUCK shit is going down.

 

One of the biggest mistakes ever made was JCP not giving DiBiase the money he wanted when they bought out UWF and made him UWF champ leading the UWF charges but we all know how that ended up.

 

MDM was a tremendous gimmick and had one of the greatest themes all-time but I always longed for black glove DiBiase.

[Timbo Slice]

Yeah, DiBiase not going over to JCP when UWF got bought was a travesty. Him vs. Flair in 87 instead of Garvin? Holy shit.

 

Can't keep him off my list. The Mid-South stuff is too good. He'll be there, probably in the lower half, but he'll be there.

[Mr. Lacelle]

I'd argue that Hansen not Jumbo was the king of All Japan.

[Childs]

I'd argue that Hansen not Jumbo was the king of All Japan.

 

The No. 1 native was the ace in that promotion.

 

Hansen was No. 1 foreigner and on the same tier as Jumbo. But no way he was "The Man." And I think Hansen was the greatest wrestler of all time.

[W2BTD]

I'm confused as to why DiBiase was part of the no vote original HOF class. Not saying he doesn't belong, but I certainly don't see him as a pantheon level no brainer at all.

[Mr. Lacelle]

 

 

I'd argue that Hansen not Jumbo was the king of All Japan.

The No. 1 native was the ace in that promotion.

 

Hansen was No. 1 foreigner and on the same tier as Jumbo. But no way he was "The Man." And I think Hansen was the greatest wrestler of all time.

I'm not suggesting he was the ace, just that he had best matches from the set.

[funkdoc]

I'm confused as to why DiBiase was part of the no vote original HOF class. Not saying he doesn't belong, but I certainly don't see him as a pantheon level no brainer at all.

 

he had the superworker rep and a nice run on top with savage that looks better now than it did at the time, plus one of the most memorable gimmicks

 

i think this also speaks to parv's discussion on "ring generals", as that seems like exactly the sort of thing wrestlers value more than we do. dibiase definitely benefited from that!

[JerryvonKramer]

Dave Meltzer saw him as one of the best workers in the world, and certainly in the US, for almost a decade, so that's why he was a fiat. Since he put together the list with Dave, if jdw is around he could probably give you the exact answer. I'd put money on it being that though.

 

Factor in main eventing in GCW, Mid-South and WWF plus a big, big-time angle with Hogan and big-time gimmick, plus "St. Louis credentials" and tagging with Hansen in All Japan, and it's a no-brainer.

[BillThompson]

Having not seen his Mid-South work I don't see the case for DiBiase. His WWF run is very, very disappointing. It's clear as day that he's super talented, but he almost never rises above the talent around him.

[Frankensteiner]

Ted DiBiase has one of the greatest babyface turns of all-time in 1985 and I fucking loved the babyface run after that in 1986 which his AJPW tours hurt his momentum though because instead of being the guy who should be the UWF Champ he was going back and forth and wasn't able to be depended on with the strap. The best part about DiBiase in that run was that even though he turned face he didn't altar his style as he still worked the same and then when he broke out the black glove it was treated like OH FUCK shit is going down.

 

Other than the aforementioned face turn against Flair and the subsequent matches against Murdoch, what are the other singles matches worth checking out from Dibiase's face run?

[Danish Dynamite]

Ted's awesome! He's high on the list!

[El-P]

The epitome of "solid" as opposed to "great". I can't recall one single performance by DiBiase where I thought "this guy is amazing". I can recall hundreds of performances by DiBiase where I thought "this guy is always so solid". I can recall tons of times where I was supposed to get a great match (either in WWF, Mid-south or Japan) and I got a "good solid match".

 

To me there's a reason why he looked at its best in WWF (yeah, I never thought he was anything special in Mid-south, although again he was super solid), because the gimmick, which he was great at working, was one of the best and most memorable of its era (and of all-time as far as this kind of stuff goes), and because the promotion was so light on super string workers that DiBiase obviously came off much better in this environment. Put him in Japan next to Stan Hansen and against guys like Jumbo, Tenryu, Yastu or Choshu, and he looks "solid" but kinda bland in a Dick Slater way. If he had gone to the NWA next to the Ricky Morton, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton and Ric Flairs or the territory, I think he'd have been exposed the same way.

 

He's really the counterpart of Brad Armstrong, the difference being Ted was much better at projecting a character, which he did like a king in WWF when he got one of the best gimmick ever, and was an excellent promo.

 

In a way, he's kinda the greatest solid worker ever, or the worst great worker ever. Always been a fan, but he wouldn't do that well on a top 100 with me.