BigBadMick Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 I agree that it's not fair to paint PWO as being of one mind when it comes to wrestling opinions, but I think it is pretty fair to suggest that the board as a whole can be pretty unwelcoming and intimidating to new people, especially when they have opinions that don't jive with what is seen to be the majority or consensus view here. Speaking from experience, it took me a long time to stop lurking and actually post when I came here, and even now when it comes to opinions I hold that I know would be controversial here, I usually choose to keep them to myself rather than go through the hassle of trying to defend an unpopular viewpoint. Eventually I will state my case for Shawn Michaels as my #1 in GWE, and I'm dreading it because I know it will be challenged (and rightfully so) and defending Shawn as the GOAT on THIS board is an exhausting prospect. Arguing with you guys is exhausting. In a good way most of the time (until we get into dead horse beating territory, like now). But still exhausting. rovert mentioned the Devitt being respected thing as an example of the closemindedness of some people on the board. That was a weird conversation to witness. The 'Angle got in the HOF because of his medals' talking point is another. The way people go on about that it's like they have no idea that a huge majority of wrestlers and fans actually think Kurt Angle is a fantastic worker. They have to find some secret conspiracy reason why people would vote for him. They've been duped because he has gold medals. They can't possibly just have a different opinion about his ability to you. It's times like these when the people making noise on this board come off as out of touch with what is actually going on outside of this very small community. I don't really agree with Joe's views on this particular subject. I don't usually put much stock in athleticism and Kurt Angle shits me up a wall. But I do think he's pretty brave to come to this board and argue for workrate and athleticism, because I sure as shit wouldn't be able to even if I believed it. He's come in all guns blazing in this thread and I agree has come off poorly and combative, but when he's received nothing but disdain for his opinion on the subject (as covered extensively in the Today's Wrestling... and Standards Change threads) I can see why he'd approach this one with his back up. Not that it's going to endear him to anyone or help him make his point. But if he'd said what he did in a nice voice I don't think it would have made his view any easier to swallow for those that disagree, since there's been no evidence of that so far in the million posts already made on this subject. I say this all with love, I love the site and the level of debate is the main reason why. But you guys really can be intimidating and unreceptive to certain opinions. Hear, hear. I love the site too guys but it's intimidating as hell to go against some of the sacred cows around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 I wish I could pull up the exact conversation I'm thinking of, but the way people were talking about the subject in that specific conversation it came off as though the medals were the primary factor. Not work + medals but more like "it can't be work because he sucks, so it must have been the medals". Now, that may not have been what those people were trying to say or what they believed. But that's the impression that was given off, at least to me. And I'm talking about impressions, because my point was how the board is perceived by outsiders or new people. When it involves someone who works a style ill-suited to this board (Angle, Devitt, Davey Richards, Shawn Michaels), there is often a sense of incredulity that anyone could think they're good wrestlers, and any evidence that they do must be somehow explained away rationally. I'm not arguing with your perception. I'm just trying to explain my position so that I can help bridge it and what I'm actually feeling. As for the rest, I do think one problem is that we've been around in circles on all of those guys repeatedly over the years, to the point where when someone brand new comes in, confused and surprised and therefore a bit defensive (because views that they've considered true and honestly believe) aren't only being challenged, but being somewhat dismissed, with any arguments about them feeling more than a little old hat and aggravating both to the people here who have had them a hundred times and to the new person who has no point of reference for WHY everyone is aggravated, that's frustrating. I don't know how to bridge that gap, except for maybe a pinned thread saying "This is why some people don't like Kurt Angle. No, we're not kidding. Please see it from our perspective. We do understand yours, honest. We just disagree. That's okay but it might get a bit stormy in a Greatest of All Time or WON HOF argument. Just be aware of that." that people can see when they arrive. In general, I don't think anyone here is "out of touch." We all interact with other parts of the net. A lot of us read the Observer. Most of us have been through various iterations of different boards over the last 12+ years or know other fans offline or through facebook or whatever. That's another thing I feel pretty confident talking about everyone at once with. We know what other people are saying. In general we either know why they're saying it or have people we're confident in asking about it. Just because there's a consensus elsewhere on the net, that doesn't mean we feel the need to listen to it, respect it, or validate it. Now if someone comes in with a personal opinion, that's different. I couldn't disagre more with the Fedex guy up earlier int his note, but he explained his position well and I respect it because he did so and he seems very earnest about it, but also able to agree to disagree and try to at least understand where I'm coming from. If it was just a matter that "the majority of people on the internet feel this way," well, who cares? Everyone here came to their views over time and through various means and we're all more than happy to talk at length about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 For the stop watchers of the world, you could make work rate an actual statistic if you really wanted to. Calculate the percentage of how much of the match is actively engaged in wrestling (strikes, holds) as compared to stalling, selling, playing to the crowd etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 And I'm talking about impressions, because my point was how the board is perceived by outsiders or new people. When it involves someone who works a style ill-suited to this board (Angle, Devitt, Davey Richards, Shawn Michaels), there is often a sense of incredulity that anyone could think they're good wrestlers, and any evidence that they do must be somehow explained away rationally. I can agree with this. Very often there are a lot of responses to posts about certain workers and the indies in general that come across as dismissive. And I think a certain portion of the hostility that comes into threads like this is because people like Joe feel there is a need for a strong voice in defense of the things that very often get shit on here. Which leads to angry responses from a few and ends up being an unsalvageable argument because both sides get dug in so deep that nobody is moving. And I'm sure there's lots of blame to spread around for that situation. Might be a better and more productive venture to find a solution though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 I just want to add that the outright meanest poster here is an absolute doll compared to being online from 2002-2004 or so. JDW is a much nicer guy now, Chris Coey was around and people were generally far more hostile at the time. It went both ways too - they could be harsh in threads, but then someone would respond that they should drink bleach or die of AIDS. (The "blinded by medals" argument goes back to those days, for the record, which is what made me think of it.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 We were all a lot younger. Though we have some people here that were probably fairly close to the age some of us were ten years ago. On average we were all a lot younger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 And my point in bringing him up wasn't so much to drag all of that up as much as it was to point out that I may have a higher threshold just because I'm used to pretty heated boards. I realize not everyone shared that experience. So if you feel intimidated by someone, feel free to say something to me about it through PM. And if there's something specific you think I should do in response, don't hesitate to say that too. Whether we agree or not on that, we'll talk it out. If it's me doing the intimidating, though, I don't believe you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Honestly this thread makes me want to take a break from the board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 As far as language And my point in bringing him up wasn't so much to drag all of that up as much as it was to point out that I may have a higher threshold just because I'm used to pretty heated boards. I realize not everyone shared that experience. So if you feel intimidated by someone, feel free to say something to me about it through PM. And if there's something specific you think I should do in response, don't hesitate to say that too. Whether we agree or not on that, we'll talk it out. If it's me doing the intimidating, though, I don't believe you. As far as personal attacks and general civility goes, this board is way ahead of the curve. Don't get me wrong. Like I said it's more just an air of superiority and dismissiveness of certain opinions that can be off-putting to someone wanting to voice those opinions. And I mean again it's not like I even agree with Joe about athleticism or like the idea of Angle in the HOF, but fair suck of the sauce bottle and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 I just want to add that the outright meanest poster here is an absolute doll compared to being online from 2002-2004 or so. JDW is a much nicer guy now, Chris Coey was around and people were generally far more hostile at the time. Ah, the good old days of Spider Twist. Yeah, it was a fucking jungle. I was such an asshole too back then. Fun memories though. But we are a lot more civil and mature right now. That's the good thing about getting older. That and finally listening to jazz (yeah, more clichés). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 What I want to know is where the heck is Bill in all this? This note might just be an elaborate set up by him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/forum/2-announcements-and-feedback/ Real simple. We have a forum here for any concerns people have about the board. If your sole purpose is to take potshots at the board or community itself, you don't have to post here. We don't ban people for being confrontational. We don't ban people for being assholes. However, I'd like to think we have built a nice little place where people can talk just about wrestling and not worry about politics or personal problems that would affect other people's enjoyment. If you like something that someone doesn't like, that's cool too. Just don't be surprised when somebody challenges your opinions. My biggest arguments on the board have been with the people I talk to the most. In the end, it's just fucking wrestling and this is the place to talk about just fucking wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Worth noting that Will and I used to absolutely loathe each other. Now we just have contempt for each other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Will's thoughts reminded me of this Everyone just needs to chill and do as my old friend Anthony Gancarski once said "Just Enjoy It" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Eventually I will state my case for Shawn Michaels as my #1 in GWE, and I'm dreading it because I know it will be challenged (and rightfully so) and defending Shawn as the GOAT on THIS board is an exhausting prospect. Arguing with you guys is exhausting. In a good way most of the time (until we get into dead horse beating territory, like now). But still exhausting. You shouldn't be afraid to do things like this. It's better that someone makes their case for Michaels rather than comments like he wouldn't be in my top 500. You will probably get some support as there are bound to be other Shawn Michaels fans around here. Shawn Michaels as #1 is an interesting viewpoint and challenges the current take on him, and I love people challenging that sort of thing. The poll is a good opportunity to reassess whether we've gone overboard on certain wrestlers in the past ten years, and you may swing some people back in favour of putting him on their ballot. I want to hear the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 I'm going to make my case for Don Muraco being in the top 100 at some point. I will be prepared for Will and company. What I don't get about this is why would doing a bunch of stuff be the most important thing of a match. Does Michael Bay make the greatest movies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Yeah, arguing improved athletics as an improvement of match quality sounds an awful lot like arguing that improved CGI and special affects as an improvement of film quality or improved production values as an improvement of song quality. I was going to make that analogy before. Eventually I will state my case for Shawn Michaels as my #1 in GWE, and I'm dreading it because I know it will be challenged (and rightfully so) and defending Shawn as the GOAT on THIS board is an exhausting prospect. Arguing with you guys is exhausting. In a good way most of the time (until we get into dead horse beating territory, like now). But still exhausting. You shouldn't be afraid to do things like this. It's better that someone makes their case for Michaels rather than comments like he wouldn't be in my top 500. You will probably get some support as there are bound to be other Shawn Michaels fans around here. Shawn Michaels as #1 is an interesting viewpoint and challenges the current take on him, and I love people challenging that sort of thing. The poll is a good opportunity to reassess whether we've gone overboard on certain wrestlers in the past ten years, and you may swing some people back in favour of putting him on their ballot. I want to hear the argument. Oh absolutely. I'll get around to making a serious case eventually. I actually have a bit of watching to do because, and this may sound weird, his 90s work is a bit of a gap I'm trying to fill (yes, #1 largely without touching his 90s run). I need to get all my ducks in a row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 The Devitt stuff was its own beast and I'm pretty certain that for once I can speak for everyone (and I will try not to do that in the future save for this time) that pretty much everyone gets it, right? (IT WAS ABOUT ROVERT AND HOW HE GENERALLY PRESENTS HIMSELF TO PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET. IT HAD VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH DEVITT. It was very much an aberration on this site.) Ok. So your bizarre trolling was bizarre trolling? I post pretty straight if not entirely straight on this forum but you decided to troll to prove a wacky point? Right. That's really crazy. Leave that stuff to the bitchy mongs on DVDR, Matt D. Wouldn't nominate him for the Greatest Wrestler Ever by a long shot but Devitt is extremely respected in the industry. Read in the piece in the latest Fighting Spirit Magazine. His professionalism in all facets Pro Wrestling and being a faithful friend and trainer are really lauded. He's a wise head that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted September 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 What I want to know is where the heck is Bill in all this? This note might just be an elaborate set up by him. Just stopped by on my phone real quick to say that I started a 146 hour shift on the ambulance this morning. Been super busy all day and haven't been able to get on my computer. I've enjoyed most of the responses though, and will elaborate more tomorrow when I can post from my computer and not my phone. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Work rate always seemed to me to be an attempt to add some sort of statistical analysis to something that defies quantification. Sports people love to use all sorts of stats to represent who is or isn't a good player and wrestling doesn't lend itself to the same sort of analysis unless you want to talk about financials. Work rate is the only 'measurable' which has come up to gather performance metrics and its extremely flawed at the core. As a performance and not a sport, you can't just measure how much stuff is packed into a match to tell if its any good. Even if you are looking at a sprint, rate doesn't measure quality on any level and basically punishes core wrestling mechanics like selling and ring psychology. Consider that Ric Flair slapping on a single figure four in the same amount of time it takes Kurt Angle to trade ankle lock reversals four times and it illustrates a giant problem in the count. This is of course if people can agree to separate 'stuff' in the same way, which they won't. To go to the movie analogy grave site of 'we hate movie analogies', Unforgiven would most likely be seen as a better movie than Con Air but it throws a lot less 'stuff' on screen but its stuff is executed with a lot more meaning and is world's less shallow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Workrate was never about who did the most stuff. It was about who did more stuff than Hulk Hogan or Riki Choshu or Perro Aguayo. I don't think you can properly explore the workrate concept without fleshing out what it was in opposition to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Which is also useful in examining the "less is more" mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted September 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Alright, hopefully I have the time to formulate a response of my own. First of all, I didn't ask this question to cause any arguments or fighting. It's genuinely a question I am interested in getting different takes on. That's why I made sure to ask everybody, and a few specific people, for responses. I had an idea that the VoW guys would have a different outlook than everyone else, but that's why I wanted to make sure they were included. I'm glad they brought forth a perspective that doesn't appear to be shared by the majority of the board. At the same time I'm glad that Matt has his take; I believe it enriches us all as intelligent wrestling fans to hear and be open to as many different opinions/theories as possible. For me that's easily what I love most about this board, and why I asked a question such as this one on this board. Wrestling is an art, I'm pretty adamant on that point. Being an art that means it's open to extreme subjectivity and that means many differing opinions. While it is true that things got a little too confrontational and a mite too hostile, at the end of the day what makes wrestling tick as an intellectual exercise is our ability to bring forth different theories and present them with valid reasoning. What makes the circle complete is that someone will then come along and completely disagree with your theory, and offer a rebuttal of sort. I enjoyed the heck out of reading people break down the questions I asked and the very idea of workrate. I have plenty of food for thought for my article, and that's thanks to the intellectual theorizing of this board. I won't deny that at the end of the day I tend to side more with Matt than anyone else on this board when it comes to the way I view wrestling. That being said I find it extremely valuable to have opinions present that disagree with what Matt and I think. Even in interactions I have with Matt I often disagree, because such is the way of things with a subjective art. I don't agree with Joe or Rich when it comes to workrate, or even wrestling in general most of the time, but I welcome their opinions because their opinions make this board a much richer place. That, as trite as it may sound, is what I got out of this conversation, and that's why I enjoyed the exchanging of theories and the academic breakdown of a concept like workrate. So, thanks everyone for the responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 what is workrate davey don't hurt me don't hurt me no more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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