Randy Orton

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[JerryvonKramer]

Absolutely not.

[bradhindsight]

Man, I was trying to write up a response before Parv got in with "He is my least favourite wrestler of all-time" and I missed my window!

 

I think one could make an argument for Orton's longevity hurting and helping him. On one hand, he's worked with a lot of talented guys and *has* had a number of exceptional matches. On the other hand, we've watched him on TV non-stop for 12 years - through different heel and face iterations and he's a touch played out.

 

Loss made a comment in one of the Orton microscope threads about how often he's been a victim of bad booking. The post title-win in 2004 and his early 2009 come to mind for me there. He was super hot as a heel going into '09 and they killed him with the McMahon feud.

 

I don't know if he'll make my top 100 but I think, given his career, he's worth discussing.

[Matt D]

Has any wrestler in the history of wrestling had more opportunity to have quality matches on tape?

[Jimmy Redman]

I think one could make an argument for Orton's longevity hurting and helping him. On one hand, he's worked with a lot of talented guys and *has* had a number of exceptional matches. On the other hand, we've watched him on TV non-stop for 12 years - through different heel and face iterations and he's a touch played out.

 

Basically this. I'm very hot and cold with Orton because at his best he's very good, and there are times when I think he's one of the best guys in the company (2004, 2007, 2011), but then other times where I'm just bored shitless by the guy (now). It's hard when I just can't care about anything he does for long periods. But then I watch some 2004 and the guy is just on fire. So for me it will be about weighing those two sides against each other.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

God, no. The guy's just a charisma vacuum, and nothing he does in the ring comes off as authentic.

[Jesse Ewiak]

I think Orton's been in more matches I can look at say "that's objectively good", but not care about at all.

[goc]

I think Orton's been in more matches I can look at say "that's objectively good", but not care about at all.

I think Orton is better than a lot of people give him credit for, but this is exactly the reason why and I don't even really fault them. It's the same problem Sheamus is going to have in this thing. There have been a lot of good matches in WWE over the past 5 years but how many of them mattered in the grand scheme of things or were even something you remembered a month later?

[Exposer]

I watched some Randy Orton recently, and I think I've found his problem.

 

He has good offense, one of the best dropkicks I've ever seen, a great finisher, has been really over at several points in his career, is an underrated bumper, has the capability to do the little things right, is great at counter sequences, and has outstanding timing. He's not the best at selling, but he's not awful at it.

 

The problem with Randy Orton is as a heel when he's on offense, he's not interesting. When he's a face and he's working underneath there's never a point where he's sympathetic. He's literally good at everything except the most important qualities for a face and heel in wrestling which is to build heat or sympathy. He's one of the most bizarre wrestler's ever for that. I think that's why a lot of people hate him. This might mean he has no charisma since charisma is usually needed to build heat or sympathy, but I don't think that's always the case. Plus, I think Orton is more charismatic than some believe. He probably won't make my list, but I thought this was an interesting point I wanted to share to see what everyone else thinks.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think he has literally the worst character work of all time, like rock bottom level. And this underpins the weaknesses you outline. Note, I'm talking character work, not necessarily charisma. He's not like Dean Malenko where he has zero charisma, it's something else.

 

I actually think Randy Orton might have been a good worker in any other generation, but being in the scripted, fake, awful current WWE extentuates that one flaw tenfold.

 

If he'd been around even 6 years earlier, we might be a having a totally different conversation.

[Exposer]

Character work might be it. Although, Edge beats him with bad character work in my opinion. Orton has lots of good matches from a technical standpoint. He won't make my list because of his bad character work or whatever the case may be. A wrestler who can't build heat or sympathy isn't a great wrestler. It's funny because I loved Orton as a kid. I thought he was a cool heel. I still think he's good technically, but he's awfully boring nowadays.

[El-P]

Black hole.

[Dylan Waco]

I agree with Exposer. Watching Mania this year it really jumped out at me at how poor and uninteresting the match with Rollins was when Orton was in a position where the match depended on him. This despite the fact that fundamentally he is good, if not very good. He just does nothing to engage me as a fan, which means that none of his matches - even the good ones - really carry any drama. This also means that the few occasions when his matches do achieve this tend to stand out more (thinking the Foley match here for example), but as a whole it is amazing how "just there" he is for a guy who has been pushed as a commodity for so long.

[(BP)]

One of the things that really hurts Orton is having Cena as a contemporary. When they were both coming up Orton was much better at the fundamentals than Cena. As their elevation and exposure increased, Cena outgrew Randy by leaps and bounds. They were given relatively similar opportunities for years, and while Cena pretty quickly became great at the house style, Orton took a lot longer to become pretty good.

[Jimmy Redman]

Exposer has hit it bang on the head. It had never occurred to me before, but that's exactly it. His matches don't garner heat - not in the sense of noise, but of an emotional hook. His strengths are all of the non-emotional aspects, like bumping, technique, timing of spots, interesting counters, using signature moves.

 

There are a lot of Orton matches I like. A lot. I thought he was outstanding in 2011, for example, just on the basis of having good TV matches every week. But that's exactly the reason why it's so hard to care about him so much of the time. His matches just don't resonate emotionally.

[JerryvonKramer]

Video game wrestler for a plastic era.

[Loss]

I was just thinking "soulless" seemed like the right way to describe his work.

[JerryvonKramer]

I honestly believe though that it is partly not his fault. If he'd have come up through indies, or in a different era, I think he could have learned to get better at that stuff or be packaged in a way (let's say with a manager or in a tagteam / stable) that hid his deficiencies. Randy Orton is one of the first guys whose career we have practically from the start in the post-territory post-WCW WWE. I think his development was severely stunted from being on TV too much and from being straight-jacketed by working in a mico-managed environment. He's exhibit A in why I hate the current product, but I don't blame him for it, he's a product of that set of policies. Now he'll probably never be a compelling worker, but he might have been if he'd have been harnessed differently.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think guys like Cena have shown that it's not impossible to break the chains of being brought up solely in modern day, sanitised WWE. But I agree that it's difficult, and Orton is the best example of the kind of soullessness that they were breeding in people about a decade ago.

[Matt D]

Orton's true calling was as a comedy mid-card face.

[Jimmy Redman]

Honestly, whenever I watch Orton from 2003-04 as the IC Champ level Legend Killer, I come away thinking that somehow, after God knows how many years working with every warm body in the company, being in countless high profile feuds and matches, being given time and opportunities year after year...as a whole package, it's entirely possible that Orton peaked in 2004, after less than two years on TV, and has never been as good in the 10+ years since.

 

He's been good for periods, and had great matches, but as a total package, ring work plus character work, promos, charisma, emoting, etc...that really was his best work. Like you watch him back then. He would actually emote. He would actually speak like a normal human being. He actually had a much more relatable charisma as the cocky, jock douchebag of Evolution.

 

I watched Survivor Series 2003. There are two moments on that show that stand out to me regarding this point. Firstly, there's a backstage segment with Evolution, and Orton walks in having just done the bit where he RKOs Mark Cuban in the ring. He's all cocky bragging about it and then one of the girls in the room tweaks his nipple and he momentarily gets distracted and smirks at this girl like he's already counting the amount of different ways he's going to fuck her. Later, he's walking out with Team Bischoff, and all the way down the ramp he's determinedly trying to convince Steiner that he was not looking at Stacy Keibler, and would never look at Stacy Keibler. They get to the bottom of the ramp, Orton lets Scotty pass and the very first nanosecond he can he sneaks in a perve at Stacy. He was just the quintessential douchebag, a good looking guy who fucking KNOWS how good looking he is, who expects women to suck his cock on sight, who men just want to punch square in the face, who will promise not to steal your girl and then immediately try to steal your girl. And probably succeed, because that handsome motherfucker makes women melt in a way that makes guys go "Why??" And the same idea extended to wrestling. He's a cocky little shit and you just want someone to beat the fuck out of him, but they can't, because he's just good enough to avoid it. He may stooge and feed and sell, and he may cheat and take the easy way out, but he's still good, and he still wins. He hits that RKO and you just think "Fuck. Not again."

 

I've gone off on a tangent here, and on things that have little to do with work in the ring, but my point in saying all this is that there was a point in time in which Orton wasn't soulless, when he had a real character and emoted like a human.

[Jesse Ewiak]

I mean, isn't probably part of the truth, at least what we know from the Observer and the like, is that basically, that's who Randy Orton was in 2003-2004?

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think he's as bad as people are making out, but he tries too hard. Modern WWE focuses heavily on reaction shots not only for angles but also during matches, so you can hardly fault him for trying, but he's a ham all the same. I don't think charisma is the issue -- he's one of my favourite Rey opponents because of his heel charisma -- he's just a poor actor in an era where they try to make matches cinematic. Usually, when we comment on a wrestler's charisma, selling or facial expressions, they're things that catch our eye while a match is going on, but the WWE sets out to intentionally create these moments. I imagine it's hard to go out there and try to pull a facial expression when you know you're in close-up than it is to simply go out there and react to shit.

[El-P]

Usually, when we comment on a wrestler's charisma, selling or facial expressions, they're things that catch our eye while a match is going on, but the WWE sets out to intentionally create these moments

 

That's a terrific point. And it also explains why the modern WWE style looks so manufactured and non-organic.

[GOTNW]

Most overrated wrestler in history whose success is based on his looks and Vince managing to program him to do x chinlocks in a match. He wouldn't have been a great wrestler in a different era-if anything he is the wrestler that has benefited the most from the tools of modern society. The greatest things about Orton are all based not on his ring work but his short temper and creative people on the internet making something from nothing. See-RKO vines, I'll go to the papers if I have to, yelling "STUPID!" at Kofi Kingston etc. The only positive thing I can say about him is that he has a nice Powerslam, which is canceled out by his shitty punches. He's carriable, but so what?