Too much modern product bashing, not enough old school

[JerryvonKramer]

A couple of us feel that over recent weeks, the board has become too focused on bitching about modern WWE, sucking on the teet of New Japan/ROH, and discussion of old wresting, the life and blood of PWO, seems to have fallen off a cliff.

 

I just wanted to voice this somewhere, because this trend of constant moaning about the current product is starting to make this place feel like any other generic wrestling board.

 

I thought possibly making everyone aware of this might help bring back a bit more old-school.

[Matt D]

It's March. Mania's almost here. ROH just had a big show that people reacted to. There's the Demott scandal. 65% of us are also heavily focused on 2014-2015 matches due to March Madness over at DVDVR.

 

April will be better for the rest of you.

[Dylan Waco]

I find this to be a bizarre complaint. My suggestion would be to post a compelling thread regarding wrestling history, the old product, et. If it is something of interest discussion will follow.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't know if it's just the influence of the Network or the terribleness of the booking or what, but the board seems more negative somehow now than it has ever been and it feels like the flavour of the whole place has changed.

 

This used to be the place where you can chuck out any old wrestler's name and someone would be able to find a good to great match they had once, whoever it was. Bunkhouse Buck, Shanghai Pierce, The Barbarian, whoever. I always thought that brand of positivity was something that set the board apart. Things seem a bit one-note to me at the moment.

[S.L.L.]

Also, I had this funny notion that the lifeblood of Pro Wrestling Only was pro wrestling, only. Certainly, that includes old-school wrestling, but it also includes every other form of pro wrestling that people wish to discuss, not prizing any one as more worthy of discussion than the other. If one were trying to shut down discussion of old-school wrestling on this board, that would be awful, and very much against this board's spirit, but that's not what's happening.

[JerryvonKramer]

Not really saying that discussion of modern stuff should be shut down, but more that it seems increasingly that that's all there is.

 

Perhaps that's just my perception, but there seem to be a lot of threads dedicated to complaining about the same few things. Could be a sign of the strength of people's feelings about what's happening, but if it stayed like this for a real length of time, I'd likely tap out.

[Matt D]

It's march.

[(BP)]

Just want to weigh in as someone who posts almost solely in current WWE threads and has only been on here for about a year. I love the old school threads, and the board has exposed me to a lot of great wrestling. I'm really into Jack Brisco and El Dandy right now, and I'm planning to go through as much Memphis as I can eventually. I just don't have anything really to contribute in those threads because I'm a relative novice and someone else has already expressed my thoughts better. I really respect Loss and the mods as curators of wrestling history, and it's nice that this is such a civil place to talk shop. I don't know if this reflects other newer members, but I definitely enjoy nearly all wrestling discussion.

[van_Fair]

I think it is just because of Mania coming up. I also think the current slump of WWE goes a bit beyond the normal slump so the complaints are also more prevalent. As for ROH and NJPW, they have been pretty great so far this year, so just giving credit where credit is due.

 

After Mania season the current WWE talk will die down and I hope the Greatest Wrestler Ever project will heat up.

[Grimmas]

After Mania season the current WWE talk will die down and I hope the Greatest Wrestler Ever project will heat up.

I think I need to come up with something to re-focus in on the project when Mania hits. The deadline will be a year at that point, so time to focus.

[KrisZ]

I find this to be a bizarre complaint. My suggestion would be to post a compelling thread regarding wrestling history, the old product, et. If it is something of interest discussion will follow.

 

Yeah Dylan is right here....sometimes the way to get the conversation going in the direction that you want is attempting to start a topic for it and get it going. It might go good it might not who knows.

[kjh]

I find a wee bit of irony about Parv complaining about board negativity given his recent "Who is your least favourite person associated with wrestling period?" thread, which promoted negative discussion about people within the wrestling business. I agree with Dylan and Kris, find the right topic and people will discuss old school wrestling more. It's also partially the natural ebb and flow of discussion. Usually historical discussion peaks in the late summer/autumn with the Observer Hall Of Fame voting. There's always more modern day WWE talk in the first quarter of the year with WrestleMania.

[Loss]

Agreed. Be the change you want to see in the world. Modern WWE has actually made me hate wrestling, so I need someone to step in and remind me of its awesomeness.

[BigBadMick]

'sucking on the teet of New Japan/ROH'

 

Ok, Parv - what's your objections to RoH? I'm genuinely curious.

[Ricky Jackson]

Don't worry, my planned dual thread on Dominic DeNucci and Baron Scicluna will herald an old school Renaissance. In the meantime, join me on my journey through the wondrous career of Johnny Rodz.

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/29965-the-unpredictable-johnny-rodz-aka-the-jobber-thread/

[C.S.]

When I saw this topic, I was really hoping it was going to be about bitching over old school stuff. There's really none of that on this board (or elsewhere) because everyone naturally cherry-picks the good stuff.

[shoe]

I discussed this with Parv earlier. Here are some thoughts I shared with Parv and some that I didn't

 

1. It's March and it's mania. The negative talk is because the booking has been terrible. Last year we as fans were pissed until they switched gears and the build became a lot more palatable.

 

2. Their are a lot of podcasts that cover old school wrestling. People get their fix with those. To a lot of people the 90's are considered old school.

 

3. He's upset that their isn't more talk of 70's footage. Bottom line it doesn't have the nostalgia factor that the 80's has.

 

4. He's looking at Dory Jr and has positive feelings for him as a worker. Not a lot of people share that opinion. Will has been the most vocal against Dory. Bottom line, most people take Will's stance on Dory. People don't want to go down that rabbit hole with you.

 

5. He then says people don't want to go on the ride with Brisco, Wahoo etc either. I think watching 70's style wrestling is more foreign than watching Lucha to a lot of people.

 

6. The best of 80's sets have been in a holding pattern. That generates a lot of 80's talk.

 

7. Parv you could talk about 80's Lucha in the Lucha thread. It's not type old school you want to talk about.

 

8. The NJPW/ROH is something that I'm going to take as a shot aimed at me. I feel I've been given a label as an old school guy. I like good wrestling. I don't care what decade it's in. I've given ROH/and NJPW some positive pub on my end. They deserve it. They've put on good shows for me. On top of it both ROH and NJPW have streaming services where you can essentially go on tour with both brands in almost real time. If this was available in the 70's or 80's for MId-Atlantic Parv would have been all over it.

 

9. The 90's have been covered in great detail. Loss and people like PeteF3, Chad, Childs and others have contributed a lot to those topics; and should be proud of all the discussion of the 90's product in all parts of wrestling.

 

10. Finally, people might not feel all that comfy talking about footage from the 70's , but damn sure want to read about it. You don't post much in current WWE because you don't follow the product. You obviously read it. I bet a lot of people do read about your stuff with Brisco and Dory, but don';t have a lot to say about it because they haven't been involved in that world.

 

11. Parv, you're still my boy.

[Grimmas]

If Parv wants to give me copies of the Wahoo set, than I will watch along with him.

[JerryvonKramer]

I actually have less of an agenda here than people (including Pete) might think. Will try to answer his points:

1. It's March and it's mania. The negative talk is because the booking has been terrible. Last year we as fans were pissed until they switched gears and the build became a lot more palatable.

I get that, but it has felt like it has drowned everything else out.

2. Their are a lot of podcasts that cover old school wrestling. People get their fix with those. To a lot of people the 90's are considered old school.

All I'll say is that I'd encourage people to give their thoughts more, especially if they've watched footage.

3. He's upset that their isn't more talk of 70's footage. Bottom line it doesn't have the nostalgia factor that the 80's has.

I'm not that upset by it. I understand that some of the footage is hard to get hold of and even harder to sit through, especially if it's clipped, 8mm film, Luce stuff, etc. More entry barriers than most areas.

By "old school", I mean generally "anything older than about 1996". 70s had no bearing on me making this thread.

4. He's looking at Dory Jr and has positive feelings for him as a worker. Not a lot of people share that opinion. Will has been the most vocal against Dory. Bottom line, most people take Will's stance on Dory. People don't want to go down that rabbit hole with you.

I haven't really gone on about Dory that much. He'll make my list, involved in too many great matches not to be, but I'm well aware of his shortcomings. He had no bearing on me making this thread.

5. He then says people don't want to go on the ride with Brisco, Wahoo etc either. I think watching 70's style wrestling is more foreign than watching Lucha to a lot of people.

When I said in our chat that "people don't care about the 70s", I was just saying that I get it that only a fraction of people will want to explore back that far. I mean shit, we've known that ever since we started Titans. Again, not really what I was getting at with this thread.

6. The best of 80's sets have been in a holding pattern. That generates a lot of 80's talk.

I agree with that. The Lucha set stalled for some reason. I think a combination of DVDR going down, the network, and the natural slump in energy and enthusiasm every project has after the initial burst. I mean I'll hold my hand up, I never got past disc 2. But yes, we're due a set, and that has partly been what has been missing.

7. Parv you could talk about 80's Lucha in the Lucha thread. It's not type old school you want to talk about.

I will say that I just reviewed an El Dandy match from 1988 and not just to prove a point. I am planning on trying to watch a good sampling of Lucha for GWE purposes, although it still hasn't really clicked with me the way Japanese wrestling does. Not impossible though, I like the environment more than modern indie or WWE.

8. The NJPW/ROH is something that I'm going to take as a shot aimed at me. I feel I've been given a label as an old school guy. I like good wrestling. I don't care what decade it's in. I've given ROH/and NJPW some positive pub on my end. They deserve it. They've put on good shows for me. On top of it both ROH and NJPW have streaming services where you can essentially go on tour with both brands in almost real time. If this was available in the 70's or 80's for MId-Atlantic Parv would have been all over it.

Alright, you got me here. This was partly aimed at you (and Will), but like you two are influential guys in this community. Again, it's not like I'm saying no one should discuss NJPW or ROH, just that there's been a noticeable drop off in talk of older stuff, while this has risen. I get that New Japan world and the Network are factors here. I guess I was just worried that it might kill off discussion of older stuff for good.

9. The 90's have been covered in great detail. Loss and people like PeteF3, Chad, Childs and others have contributed a lot to those topics; and should be proud of all the discussion of the 90's product in all parts of wrestling.

 

No arguments from me, those guys have been awesome, and those threads are a tremendous resource. I love it when I've just watched a match from the 90s and I can go and read their thoughts on it.

10. Finally, people might not feel all that comfy talking about footage from the 70's , but damn sure want to read about it. You don't post much in current WWE because you don't follow the product. You obviously read it. I bet a lot of people do read about your stuff with Brisco and Dory, but don';t have a lot to say about it because they haven't been involved in that world.

Yeah, I get that.

I should also mention that I do have the Network now and did watch both the Royal Rumble and Fast Lane. I am aware of what's happening in Current WWE in general, I just don't find it that interesting. And I find it slightly surprising that people are invested in it enough to moan about it as much as they do. I'll watch the PPV and be like "oh ho hum" and maybe listen to a reaction show and read some comments and move on. The booking has been at head-scratching levels of retarded, it's true, but I guess I find it a slight shame that the lion's share of attention is going on that right now.

 

11. Parv, you're still my boy.

[shoe]

Also on a final take from me. I'll take people bitching about current WWE than 50 pages of people full of crap saying it's awesome. I'd rather be part of a community that has integrity. This isn't a shot at Sorrow. I know he loves the current product. There is a folder where a few of us do discuss the 80's projects. I get my fill of discussing 80's matches there I.also want to save it for when the time is right to discuss it. I also do a podcast with you where I get to express my thoughts verbally with you along with Johnny, and Kelly the current Brain Buster champion in regards to older footage. I show up on Steven's show from time to time to usually discuss older footage. So the board has been a place for me to talk about things I like that is happening right now. Besides WWE their is a lot of cool stuff to discuss that is current. ROH is putting on a good product. During the Davey Richards era it was the shits. Lucha Underground in novel and showcasing a lot of AAA talent. AAA has Rey Misterio returning Sunday and that could lead to AAA exploding into the #2 wrestling company in the world.NXT is fun to watch. NJPW is putting on strong big events the last few years. They'll need to switch things up soon or it will become too stale. AJ Styles right now as IWGP champion is like a modern day Nick Bockwinkle in the type of different matches with different opponents he's having. People want to follow things that are good. Right now their are a lot of options that are happening in the moment that are good. Old school will always be there. Eventually things will get boring or overexposed and old school will be more prevelant on the board. Bottom line the PWO community loves good wrestling, and their was a lot of great wrestling in the 70's , 80's, 90's and beyond.

[funkdoc]

I should also mention that I do have the Network now and did watch both the Royal Rumble and Fast Lane. I am aware of what's happening in Current WWE in general, I just don't find it that interesting. And I find it slightly surprising that people are invested in it enough to moan about it as much as they do. I'll watch the PPV and be like "oh ho hum" and maybe listen to a reaction show and read some comments and move on. The booking has been at head-scratching levels of retarded, it's true, but I guess I find it a slight shame that the lion's share of attention is going on that right now.

 

a major reason people care so much is wasted potential, i think. it's reaching WCW levels in that regard now, which you probably don't fully appreciate since you're not a regular viewer.

 

for instance, i go back to your previous vince discussion where you were basically assuming cesaro was like zack ryder (i.e. flavor of the month). if you were watching every week, you would realize that he's a tremendous performer who has plenty of cool shit to organically get the crowd into the match. in terms of long-term potential value to the promotion, i'd put him somewhere in between eddy & benoit (to use fellow "superworker" examples). squandering that kind of asset is very much a WCW thing to do, and it frustrates the hell out us. dean ambrose is an even worse case given his unique charisma/presence, and of course i don't need to go over bryan.

 

you also have to remember that just a few years ago, people like jack swagger were winning world titles, and the smart fans were trying to talk themselves into the miz & damien sandow as main-event stars of the future. the roster now is *astoundingly* more talented than it was in those days, and that is absolutely a factor in what you're complaining about. guys like punk/bryan/the shield brought back the "lapsed smart fan" crowd, and that audience is becoming more vocal now that so much of that talent is being misused or not used at all.

 

anyway, i also wanted to say that i am one of those people who reads all of your 70s wrestling posts. i have nothing to say about that era myself, but definitely enjoy and appreciate the work you put in there!

[WingedEagle]

I just got home from vacation and happened across this thread before diving in elsewhere. Having literally just gotten back, I haven't seen Raw or any related WWE tv or anything about the show other than some tweets I caught Monday night. A couple quick hits:

 

1. It sounds like the Mania build has just about bottomed unless we start looking back to prior generations . That + Mania prominence / March (as Matt D noted above) + the ease with which this dissatisfaction can be voiced can probably make the whole subject overwhelming.

 

2. That being said, once Mania is over the same void, if you will, of other topics may very well be present. Dylan suggested JVK start a thread on something. The 90s forums are one of the best things about this place. What about building out something for other decades (without stepping on the toes of the 80s projects)? Whether it be individual forums / threads for Horsemen material, PWO versions of threads on All Japan 80s, WWE 2000s, some framework that gives people a launching point?

[ohtani's jacket]

People are more interested in Twitter and podcasts these days than they are message boards. Add to that the fact that people are more inclined to read about wrestling than they are to actually watch it and you have a lack of discussion. The original GWE list as done at the apex of message board posting and is one of the reasons why I don't think the 2016 list can improve on it. I will say that sometimes I try to look up the matches you've posted about in the Microscope and can't find them online. If you want to generate more discussion you might need to share stuff.

[funkdoc]

People are more interested in Twitter and podcasts these days than they are message boards. Add to that the fact that people are more inclined to read about wrestling than they are to actually watch it and you have a lack of discussion.

 

bingo. i resemble all of those remarks (aside from the podcasts anyway)!

 

forums are a dying breed, really. even one as huge as something awful is barely relevant to wider internet culture anymore. pretty much the only ones that are still a big deal are reddit and the various *chan boards, and those tend to be for negative reasons as much as positive ones...

[Karl]

I can see where Parv is coming from as I am someone whose primary interest is more focussed towards old school and as such, I will read more threads in that area. This forum is an astonishing encyclopaedia of knowledge that I love to trawl through to learn more and the debate is heated yet more often than not, fair. I dont post much because I am not very good at articulating my thoughts very well, so I cannot exactly complain about the lack of threads relating to areas of interest to me. That said, for some, the New Japan and WWE Networks could be an ideal place for those people who dont have access to a lot of sets etc to see older wrestling they had not see previously, so I dont think the networks can solely be seen as a root cause of a lack of old school chat, rather a stimulus to generate conversation.