Bierschwale Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm surprised nobody mentioned that Dean Ambrose getting incapacitated in the ladder match also foreshadowed the cash in. Ambrose always vowed he would never let Rollins cash in successfully, and it would have been a major loophole if Ambrose hadn't gotten hurt in the opener. That's a nice idea.......but that plotline was ditched a while back. Seth has teased cashing in several times and Dean was nowhere to be seen. I don't disagree, though the last time that I remember it being a case where Rollins actually attempted it in the ring was NoC and Ambrose had been thrown out of the building after he had the great return. I can't remember Rollins handing the briefcase over or anything since then, and the last legitimate chance that he had had before last night was on the RAW ep with the contract signing for the Rumble match when he curbstomped Brock but he didn't attempt a cash-in. So Ambrose HASN'T ever let him go ahead with it, even if Seth has yammered about doing it. It probably is just serendipitous for the story, but it does work out. I got the feeling the ladder match was originally conceived to finally be his big win until they realized they had to do something with Daniel Bryan. Yeah, he was the one who first brought it up on the snow day RAW after the Rumble, about wanting to get his picture on the "Wall of Champions" with all the greats, which makes the segment that Bryan had with the legendary champs kind of ironic. He now is the most logical choice to win MITB this year, though, and to use it to make a Shield triple threat as the SummerSlam main. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I was in complete agreement with every word of your post Coolio. Great minds think alike I suppose? I don't really know you, but if you agree with everything I said, you're probably a guy who's got stuff figured out, haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAC Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 It's amazing that Vince can turn chicken sh%t into chicken salad and people lose their minds praising his genius, when he had wagyu beef sitting next to the chicken coop. The MITB cash-in was a nice recovery--the crowd popped, everyone was surprised--but the damage was already done. Reigns v. Brock was a fun match alright. An extended squash, but with Reigns doing damage to Brock along the way and slowly wearing him down, getting ready to culminate in Reigns having that extra little bit left in the tank to do what Cena couldn't and pull off a miracle comeback. Except that the fans in attendance still crapped all over when he mounted his comeback. Reigns was made to look sympathetic, but the fans in attendance booed him mercilessly when he fought back. Presumably, they see him as Super Cena Part II. Now, somebody will probably say that Cena gets mixed reactions but is still the top draw. But the mixed reaction is an indictment of how Cena was handled by creative. Wouldn't he have drawn a lot more money without the mixed reactions? Wouldn't Reigns look a lot better as a badass babyface rather than Cena Mk II? So at the end of the day, Reigns is still damaged because he has the stink of "anointed corporate champion", no matter how hard he worked last night. Meanwhile, even if there's a consensus that wins and losses matter, it doesn't appear as though how those wins and losses come matters, as everyone seems to love the MITB cash-in. Since winning MITB, who has Rollins beat? Dean Ambrose and... oh, that's it. We've gone from Brock Lesnar to a guy who's scarcely been booked stronger than Mikey Whipwreck. So Reigns is damaged, Rollins is a weak champ and Lesnar's going back to his compound for God knows how many months. I'm still not seeing how any of this is better than giving Bryan the big win over Lesnar and letting his story play out, thus giving Reigns a year to get over organically and be ready for the big push next year. Sorry, that whole main event left me cold. I'm not drinking the Kool Aid on this one. Just because it didn't end with poor Roman Reigns getting pelted with garbage, it doesn't mean it was booking genius. It was a salvage job; nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm surprised nobody mentioned that Dean Ambrose getting incapacitated in the ladder match also foreshadowed the cash in. Ambrose always vowed he would never let Rollins cash in successfully, and it would have been a major loophole if Ambrose hadn't gotten hurt in the opener. That's a nice idea.......but that plotline was ditched a while back. Seth has teased cashing in several times and Dean was nowhere to be seen. I don't disagree, though the last time that I remember it being a case where Rollins actually attempted it in the ring was NoC and Ambrose had been thrown out of the building after he had the great return. I can't remember Rollins handing the briefcase over or anything since then, and the last legitimate chance that he had had before last night was on the RAW ep with the contract signing for the Rumble match when he curbstomped Brock but he didn't attempt a cash-in. So Ambrose HASN'T ever let him go ahead with it, even if Seth has yammered about doing it. It probably is just serendipitous for the story, but it does work out. I got the feeling the ladder match was originally conceived to finally be his big win until they realized they had to do something with Daniel Bryan. Yeah, he was the one who first brought it up on the snow day RAW after the Rumble, about wanting to get his picture on the "Wall of Champions" with all the greats, which makes the segment that Bryan had with the legendary champs kind of ironic. He now is the most logical choice to win MITB this year, though, and to use it to make a Shield triple threat as the SummerSlam main. Yeah.....a Shield triple threat headlining a major PPV has to happen......and Dean winning MITB and cashing it when Reigns vs. Rollins is booked for SS before the match even happens would be perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 It's amazing that Vince can turn chicken sh%t into chicken salad and people lose their minds praising his genius, when he had wagyu beef sitting next to the chicken coop. The MITB cash-in was a nice recovery--the crowd popped, everyone was surprised--but the damage was already done. Reigns v. Brock was a fun match alright. An extended squash, but with Reigns doing damage to Brock along the way and slowly wearing him down, getting ready to culminate in Reigns having that extra little bit left in the tank to do what Cena couldn't and pull off a miracle comeback. Except that the fans in attendance still crapped all over when he mounted his comeback. Reigns was made to look sympathetic, but the fans in attendance booed him mercilessly when he fought back. Presumably, they see him as Super Cena Part II. Now, somebody will probably say that Cena gets mixed reactions but is still the top draw. But the mixed reaction is an indictment of how Cena was handled by creative. Wouldn't he have drawn a lot more money without the mixed reactions? Wouldn't Reigns look a lot better as a badass babyface rather than Cena Mk II? So at the end of the day, Reigns is still damaged because he has the stink of "anointed corporate champion", no matter how hard he worked last night. Meanwhile, even if there's a consensus that wins and losses matter, it doesn't appear as though how those wins and losses come matters, as everyone seems to love the MITB cash-in. Since winning MITB, who has Rollins beat? Dean Ambrose and... oh, that's it. We've gone from Brock Lesnar to a guy who's scarcely been booked stronger than Mikey Whipwreck. So Reigns is damaged, Rollins is a weak champ and Lesnar's going back to his compound for God knows how many months. I'm still not seeing how any of this is better than giving Bryan the big win over Lesnar and letting his story play out, thus giving Reigns a year to get over organically and be ready for the big push next year. Sorry, that whole main event left me cold. I'm not drinking the Kool Aid on this one. Just because it didn't end with poor Roman Reigns getting pelted with garbage, it doesn't mean it was booking genius. It was a salvage job; nothing more. Seth has been presented as a guy who can hang with anyone (including Brock Lesnar) and beat anyone at any given time......but he's chosen to take the sleazy eazy HEEL side of doing things. He's constantly put over as an amazing athlete, amazing wrestler....who shouldn't have to resort to such cheap tactics.....who doesn't need to cozy up to The Authority.......that's the whole character right now. Shades of Owen Hart kinda......where it was always "this guy is so talented......he doesn't need to be such a heel" and it was like.....because he can, and because he enjoys it. The announcers and the talking heads constantly put this over......which one would assume is laying ground for an eventual babyface run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Gonna rewatch the main, because I loved it as much as everyone else at the time, and I thought Reigns looked great, but for reasons that I'm not sure can ever be realistically recreated (and maybe he doesn't have to, the joy that is wrestlemania). If his greatest strength will ultimately be his selling (not the worst trait for a top face) there's no one that's ever going to maul him like that, for good and obvious reasons. And I didn't think his offense looked particularly good in a showy pro wrestling sense. It quite obviously looked like it hurt because any time he touched Brock he drew blood, but they weren't exactly show it to the back of the arena level strikes he was throwing. There are ways for it to look like it kills and have it be absolutely spectacular, Brock's top 10 ever clothesline being a shining example. I don't know if Roman's in real life Ambrose flurries are going to translate into anything sustained long term, but it worked yesterday. I say this as a guy not particularly down on Roman, nor super worried about mid match minutia like this 90% of the time.. . . also, after that? What puts Reigns down for kayfabe 1-2-3's? Shotgun shells? He took an on par Cena beating with ALOT more shine. (the obvious answer here is curbstomps) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Also, as a guy who up to, maybe a couple days ago STILL couldn't believe it wasn't Danielson vs. Lesnar at the end of the day, what came out of the main, I am more than ok with. Vince doubled down and might have got 2 more stars out of this Mania than the one supernova he would have had with the predictable Brian return to the mountaintop. Brian is in a sense already made, and his return to the main event will not feel out of place at all when it eventually happens. It just might be alot more crowded when he does, and I don't think that's a bad thing in this situation.. . . chicken salad tastes good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 . . . also, after that? What puts Reigns down for kayfabe 1-2-3's? Shotgun shells? He took an on par Cena beating without ALOT more shine. (the obvious answer here is curbstomps) well, it looked like Roman was wearing Kevlar....so not sure if shotgun shells would put him down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Maybe I'm crazy but I watched Lesnar vs Reigns again and this is the first time this year I have been tempted to go the full five with snowflakes. Like, I won't right now cause I'm a weirdo with them and don't think it is quite right to Holy Grail-ing something that happened even a few months ago. But even with Ibushi vs. Nakamura and the Royal Rumble Triple Threat I've never quite felt that urged. Blame the blood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Had a work day to let my mind digest things and sort them out. The finish to the Sting match was kind of an homage to his entire career in WCW. He breaks the sledgehammer but doesn't make sure the metal head of it is out of the ring while his foot is right next to it, then runs all the way back across the ring twice. Its the same old dumb Sting from WCW. I think that the finish to the Rusev/Cena match was right for the situation. The American face wins at Mania. But I also think that Cena taking Rusev's streak away was a total waste. You could have built up somebody like a Big E or Cesaro as an upper midcard face and had a program with the undefeated Rusev to launch them into the main event. Big E seems like enough of an athlete that he could physically match up with Rusev fairly well. But instead you booked yourself into the need to kill the streak. Just plain stupid. The Rousey stuff is certainly going to be an uptick for the WWE as far as exposure. I don't personally care for the idea, but that's what the fast forward button is for. I would agree that you keep her far, far away from the divas division. An amusing thought that was running through my head while that was going on was how Rousey could take out anybody in that ring with relative ease. Might be an interesting thing to do later on. I have to agree that Steph (as well as Triple H) will be all over WWE programming for as long as they can come up with reasons to be there. So basically forever. Wonderful idea that. As for the main event, my complaint is the same as the Rusev/Cena match. The only, only way to save the show was to do the ending they did. That means that on the way there they fucked up and could have avoided having to play the "cash in" card if they had been paying attention and/or willing to listen. I think the reason they keep MITB around is for this exact purpose. To get them out of shit they don't have other ways out of. Which means it will stay around forever. From a wrestling point of view there was a lot to like on the show. But it seemed mostly wasted by a bad build that called for some decisions to be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAC Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Seth has been presented as a guy who can hang with anyone (including Brock Lesnar) and beat anyone at any given time......but he's chosen to take the sleazy eazy HEEL side of doing things. He's constantly put over as an amazing athlete, amazing wrestler....who shouldn't have to resort to such cheap tactics.....who doesn't need to cozy up to The Authority.......that's the whole character right now. Shades of Owen Hart kinda......where it was always "this guy is so talented......he doesn't need to be such a heel" and it was like.....because he can, and because he enjoys it. The announcers and the talking heads constantly put this over......which one would assume is laying ground for an eventual babyface run It's one thing to be a chickensh%t heel, it's another to be a chickensh%t heel who never wins. The wins on PPV aren't there. But I suppose this isn't specific to Rollins. Every guy who wins MITB gets to do jobs until he cashes in. I get the idea in building interest in future match-ups, but I could do without guys being figuratively neutered before they get their title run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAC Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm not so sure about the quality of Lesnar v. Reigns either. Reigns took an awesome beating, sure. But it didn't have a lot of flow. Just pick up Reigns, suplex him and repeat, with little hope spots tossed in. A good match sort of reminiscent of Vader's matches against Flair, Sting and Inoki. But I'm not seeing where the 5-star talk is coming from. Opinions may vary, but I thought I was watching a fun extended squash building to a miracle comeback, not an MOTYC. I did really like the blood though. It added a lot to the aura of the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 This is an aside, but I don't see any evidence to support the theory that Cena would have been a bigger draw with full on face reactions v. Mixed reactions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 . . . also, after that? What puts Reigns down for kayfabe 1-2-3's? Shotgun shells? He took an on par Cena beating without ALOT more shine. (the obvious answer here is curbstomps) well, it looked like Roman was wearing Kevlar....so not sure if shotgun shells would put him down This is the kind of forward thinking prep work I want out of my top face Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seej Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I was entertained for 4 plus hours. Really good show. My only hope is that Show winning the Battle Royal is some kinda going away gift to him, giving him one more Wrestlemania moment before he retires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I think all the bitching about the booking of the main event and Rusev v. Cena really misses the bigger point, which is that the real problem with the booking is macro not micro. I completely disagree with Jerry and cm funk on the Rusev thing, but I get that the presentation of the feud made a Cena win almost a given, and I can see their argument. Since you completely disagree with me, can you explain how Cena is different from every other babyface ace in history? Do you think Bruno or Hogan could have taken three high profile losses in less than a year? Jumbo? JYD down in Mid-South? I don't see how or why people think that when it comes to Cena "losses don't matter". "Oh he's Cena, he can take it". Why? Auras fade when someone is jobbed out. Pedro Morales. He was un-beat-able. And an ace once upon a time. By 85 any aura he ever had is gone and buried. Why is Cena different and why don't the fundamental rules of wrestling booking 101 apply to him? Sell me on that, and you sell me on Rusev going over. EDIT: I actually wonder if this might be worth pulling out for its own topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAC Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 This is an aside, but I don't see any evidence to support the theory that Cena would have been a bigger draw with full on face reactions v. Mixed reactions. Wouldn't one expect more merchandise sales if his crowd reactions were more uniformly positive? Also, it seems logical that people would buy tickets to see the guys they like win, rather than to see the guys they dislike lose. You might want to see a true heel you dislike lose, but given the way Cena was traditionally booked (i.e., like Superman), you didn't have much hope of that until the last few years. I don't imagine that one can test that empirically, mind you. But it seems logical to me that there's more money to be made from an uber popular babyface than from a guy with Cena's mixed reactions. The top drawing periods for the WWE have traditionally come with hot faces on top (e.g., Sammartino, Backlund, Hogan, Austin). I do give them credit for marketing the Cena Sucks shirts a couple of years back. A nice attempt to get Cena merchandise dollars out of Cena haters. For the record, I'm not dumping on Cena. I like him just fine, warts and all. However, I don't think the booking over the years has maximized his potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Already got into this multiple times on multiple boards with people, but I'm just shocked at all the love this show got. I don't think this was a great wrestling show and I feel disappointed that standards have dropped so bad that some people are calling this "the best show evah!!!". I seriously feel so out of touch with wrestling when people say stuff like that. I think it's bad for wrestling if this is considered to be such a great show, because it really lowers the standards and makes sure people don't know what good shows actually are. Liked the main and didn't think Rollins' cash-in really accomplished anything. It just seemed like a cop out to a booking situation that they shouldn't have put themselves in in the first place. Like hey, we don't have a good answer so lets get Rollins out there to bail us out. I thought a win or a loss for Reigns would have done more for him and Brock should have kept the belt. I thought the battle royale was awful with the booking seemingly being made to try to enrage the IWC as much as possible. I also hated the NWO/DX thing as they were all hugging each other the night before and now hate each other and Sting had a long history with the NWO. Also was disappointed with Rusev losing as I don't know where he goes from here and a Brock/Rusev match would have been great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 This is an aside, but I don't see any evidence to support the theory that Cena would have been a bigger draw with full on face reactions v. Mixed reactions. Mentioned this a few times earlier. People were arguing that since Reigns was getting negative reactions they shouldn't run with him at the top of the card - John Cena is the obvious counterpoint to this. The thing that matters now is that the person on top of the card is getting noise and a strong reaction either way. The era of true heels and faces is effectively dead. The real kiss of death is the muted reaction that used to accompany Alberto del Rio matches, and Seth Rollins gets quite a lot of that. I too am surprised this show seems to have so many positive reactions. Just about everything was just average, other than HHH/Sting which was an amusing spectacle that will be awful on a rewatch, and Bray Wyatt v Undertaker which is a contender for worst match of the year. Nothing on the undercard felt particularly special or career defining. Cena/Rusev had a better match last month. The Divas was fun but all over the place. Ladder match the usual entertaining garbage clusterfuck. The main event was by far the best thing on the show, and even that isn't anywhere near the ***** people are throwing around. It was flawlessly worked - that doesn't mean it was flawless as a match. Wouldn't one expect more merchandise sales if his crowd reactions were more uniformly positive? Only if: a. The people who go to live shows have a major crossover with people who buy merchandise b. The people who boo him are the types of people who buy merchandise The great majority of merch is generally sold to kids and marks - not the type of people who are going to be the smart crowd contingent at the shows booing John Cena out of the building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 The problem with the booking of Cena, since his Royal Rumble win in 2008, is that he often wins at the wrong time and loses at the wrong time (and to the wrong person). He's been beaten so much that just beating him once doesn't mean all that much other than extending a program, so to get someone new over in a feud with Cena they really have to beat him twice in a row. Rusev was a good person to give such a push to because he's been protected up to this point and could build to even bigger matches with Roman Reigns or Brock Lesnar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Rousey tweeted that she is just getting started in WWE. So it looks like the mixed tag is a go. Triple H and Stephanie are no doubt being pushed as the biggest stars in the promotion now. In 2015. They will probably dominate TV even more so they look stronger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Rousey tweeted that she is just getting started in WWE. So it looks like the mixed tag is a go. Triple H and Stephanie are no doubt being pushed as the biggest stars in the promotion now. In 2015. They will probably dominate TV even more so they look stronger The more things change the more they say the same. I waited for years for HHH to be off tv weekly, then when he's done as a full-time wrestler, he comes back with The Authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I said this on the reaction show and I think it stands. Taking the US TITLE off of Rusev prior to elevation to main event level is fine if they wanted a way to get him up to the a world title mix. One way he can build on it is if he destroys Brock tonight and sends him to his cabin for a few months. He doesn't have his streak but he has a direction. I don't have faith WWE will elevate him to World title contention but if they do, the loss to Cena is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Rusev is basically in Bray's spot last year. If they don't have a plan for him he's going to end up putting Cena over again next month, losing Lana, and wandering around the midcard until they need him to be rebuilt for a job to someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I thought it was a great show. I said a while back that I hoped the talent would go out there having heard the complains of what was poor build and feel determined to put out great performances and I think they did exactly that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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