Loss Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Was Hogan winning the belt at Wrestlemania IX better because there was a conclusion to Bret vs. Yoko? Yes. Think about Hogan getting inserted in that match by Jack Tunney and how much worse that would have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Was Alfred Hitcock's Psycho a rip-off and a terrible movie because the star gets murdered somewhere other than the predictable time it usually happens in movies? This is a poor comparison. The correct comparison would be a movie that went along traditional lines 98 percent of the way and did so in sensational fashion, then ended in a way that had nothing to do with the 98 percent. That movie might leave a lot of people buzzing about the shock ending, but it might also piss a lot of people off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I totally understand the question Loss is presenting and I'm not trying to patronize him. You build to the match for two months, gotta have a winner, and neither guy wins. Considering how every other major show has been booked, there's plenty of precedent for this backfiring. Problem was that in the specific instances that were mentioned, the fact that the third guy got involved or it got changed the way it did was receive poorly was the main reason why people were down on it. It's a causation/correlation thing. One doesn't necessarily lead to the other, but when one happens, it's normally similarly received akin to the decision being good or bad. The ethics in the decisions made were WAY more poor than the ones used to make this decision. If anything, the decision was made only when Brock re-signed, which would make plenty of sense. The switcheroo with Goldberg was completely unethical. The decision on Bryan/Orton was short-sighted and questionable in its ethics, as well. This, however, was a main event that was dying on the vine coming in, and I think it was almost necessitated by what happened coming in. The reason why people look to the two you mentioned was because there was money in a Goldberg rematch and it was thrown away due to ego. The reason people hated the Bryan thing was because people thought Bryan deserved a run and it would have been worth money to see him as champ. Yet when he was thrown in the main event picture at WM, that money definitely came in to see it happen, so I'd even say that specific PPV wasn't nearly as egregious as the Fingerpoke of Doom. I'd be in total agreement with Loss if more people were clamoring for a Brock/Lesnar straight-up match. But fans were turning on this and were expecting for it to be a complete dud. It's the opposite scenario of the others that have been mentioned. Ethically, this was actually the right move considering what people thought of the match coming in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Was Alfred Hitcock's Psycho a rip-off and a terrible movie because the star gets murdered somewhere other than the predictable time it usually happens in movies? This is a poor comparison. The correct comparison would be a movie that went along traditional lines 98 percent of the way and did so in sensational fashion, then ended in a way that had nothing to do with the 98 percent. Monty Python and the Holy Grail, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Hey, Brock-Roman will mean more when they run it later in the year. Now Seth-Brock is also an issue and Seth-Roman and Seth-Orton (and even Seth-Bryan, since Bryan has defeated him a few times) can be used to fill time. As a booking choice, it was excellent and makes perfect sense. Had everything happened exactly as it did after the match, I'd have no objections at all. I still really don't, but I do think they crossed a line in a way that would have been a much bigger issue in a different time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Eh, Monty Python was a bunch of surrealists. You had to be prepared for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I kinda hate that I've taken this off topic, especially on a show that I really enjoyed. This was a great show overall, and not because any of the matches on their own were particularly great, but because overall, it felt like WWE had a direction I could get behind. Some matches were better than others and I disagreed with some of the finishes, but even in those, I saw where there was potential to make something out of it, and I don't feel that way often watching a WWE show. The ladder match I don't think was great, but the crowded nature of it was working against it anyway. The right guy won and the finish with Bryan and Ziggler was incredibly dramatic. With the segment later in the show with Bryan and the legends, I really got the feeling they are going to rebuild the IC title. We'll see about that, of course. Orton vs Rollins was a solid match, but didn't feel particularly special. The finish *looked* spectacular and the timing of it was perfect, but the body of the match was missing something. I was chatting with soup during the show and told him when Orton won that I could see Rollins being champion very soon. Sting vs HHH was good camp, with the Flair-Sting cosplay at first before all the run-ins. Going over the top I think was totally the right route here, and seeing where they are going next year at Wrestlemania, I see why HHH won. I don't necessarily agree with the logic, but I at least see the logic. It would be nice if this was the end of WWE's obsession with an era that was almost two decades ago, but we thought that when The Shield squashed the New Age Outlaws last year too, and that turned out not to be the case. So we'll see. Bella Twins vs AJ & Paige was there. Nikki Bella has improved so much. Rusev vs John Cena had two phenomenal entrances and a match almost but not quite at the same level of Fastlane. I think Rusev had the GOAT Wrestlemania entrance actually. Cool to see Cena pull out the new move right when I thought his formulaic comeback was dragging the match down a little. The Rusev entrance ... seriously. The Cena one was good too, but Rusev really came across as a superstar. I know people are upset about Rusev losing, but I don't really see a new heel being built up for a year to set up a Wrestlemania program with John Cena as being a bad thing. You could certainly argue that the time isn't right for him to lose, but I would be surprised if Rusev doesn't beat him in the rubber match at Extreme Rules that I'm anticipating. The HHH-Rock-Ronda Rousey angle was money, and something that I think will be remembered as an all-time classic angle. I'm so glad they're going in the mixed tag direction which has tons of potential to get mainstream coverage and help set the attendance record instead of putting Rock over Brock or one of the roster regulars. Stephanie was excellent in this, and I'm hoping we get a public workout angle, a weigh-in angle and vignettes of HHH training Stephanie in an attempt to help her hold her own. SO much they can do with that. It's self-contained and it will help make WM a big deal next year, so I won't complain. Undertaker vs Bray felt like a Smackdown main event from 2007-2008, which meant it was better than I expected. Undertaker looked far more lucid than he was last year when he was working with a concussion. The match was nothing special and I wish Bray had won because it would have revitalized him. That finish bothered me far more than Cena-Rusev actually. Undertaker's aura has definitely taken a hit since the streak ended. The crowd was more divided than they would have been otherwise, and he didn't seem as special as he usually does. The main event was on its way to being the best Wrestlemania main event of all time before Rollins interjected himself. I think Roman Reigns should have won over skeptics with his performance tonight if anyone is being honest with themselves. He was fantastic here and really worked like he had something to prove. Awesome, awesome match. All in all, I'm cautiously (very cautiously) optimistic about WWE's direction coming out of this show. Of course, the same was true last year and then everything fell apart within a few weeks, so hopefully that doesn't happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Elliott Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Who said anything about good or bad? I'm talking about people getting what they paid for. 99.9% of people paid for sports entertainment, and it's a non-issue to them. I wanted a spotless finish in a one-on-one match I was enjoying, but that's just what WWE is, and what the vast, vast majority know and accept it to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I am making points about ethics and I'm getting responses about booking. I've been going to southern indie shows for fifteen years. Ethics is something that comes up a lot. There have been numerous cards I've been to where wrestlers have been advertised and they didn't show up for one reason or another. More importantly, cards where someone was advertised but it turned it out as a lie to get people to come to the show. Sometimes the bookers were able to mend those mistakes by still delivering a good show. Other times they weren't able to do that. I think it's subjective. Some of those shows were still good even though I was lied to. Some of them weren't. It depended on what I liked and what I didn't like about each show. This may not make any sense at all but it's the best explanation I can give for me being "yeah, I was lied to, but I still enjoyed the show." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Hey, Brock-Roman will mean more when they run it later in the year. Now Seth-Brock is also an issue and Seth-Roman and Seth-Orton (and even Seth-Bryan, since Bryan has defeated him a few times) can be used to fill time. As a booking choice, it was excellent and makes perfect sense. Had everything happened exactly as it did after the match, I'd have no objections at all. I still really don't, but I do think they crossed a line in a way that would have been a much bigger issue in a different time. This I agree with Charles. If this were the PPV era, that's $70 bucks of expectations gone in one night. Today, it's $9.99. Only a few bucks more than the southern indy shows I made my previous comparison on. I think money is a big factor here too. I still probably would have liked it if it were in the PPV era, but the ethics thing would have made more sense for people who disliked the ending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmmnx Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Reigns looked like a million bucks tonight, but the problem is he isn't going to be working Brock fucking Lesnar every week on Raw. He's got to find a way to get the fans behind him when he isn't taking the ass whopping of a lifetime from the baddest dude in WWE history. As good as he was tonight I still don't give a shit about a title feud with Rollins(they really shouldn't have run that match every other week on Raw) or more matches with Kane and Show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I was totally impressed with Reigns tonight. I was dreading the booking throughout until Rollins came out, and then it was like all was forgiven and it made what I had seen that much more appealing. He never really had to win me over, per se, but the booking made it hard to be 100% behind him. I hope it changes, as it looks like Rollins/Reigns should be their main at WM 32, if not there, at SummerSlam. All the matches delivered in some way, which is all I really ask. Between this, Evolve 40 and WWNLive, I saw three pretty dang good shows this weekend, two of them live. Even though all three had flaws, none of the flaws were so bad that the show wasn't enjoyable overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Rewatched Brock/Roman and am debating whether or not it's the best Wrestlemania match ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Orton vs Rollins was a solid match, but didn't feel particularly special. The finish *looked* spectacular and the timing of it was perfect, but the body of the match was missing something. I was chatting with soup during the show and told him when Orton won that I could see Rollins being champion very soon. I don't think there's a wrestler alive who works more matches that leave me feeling "This seems good but it's missing something I can't quantify" than Randy Orton. So many wrestlers and writers praise the guy as a master worker too. I recently watched a Dustin Rhodes training video where he said Randy has the best timing in all of wrestling. The show as a whole was very good, but was so poorly booked in the lead up, both in terms of the match ups they made and the angles that built them, that I can't go as crazy for it as some people are. Between the Undertaker rehab win, the HHH win and the Rock/Rousey angle, it felt like this show's ultimate purpose was to build for a huge WrestleMania next year in Dallas. Also agree that this year's show seemed to, at least on paper, set up a lot of feuds for the next six months that seem way more interesting than what was booked here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Rewatched Brock/Roman and am debating whether or not it's the best Wrestlemania match ever. I would say at the very least, as a match it is the best WrestleMania main event since Rock/Austin at X-7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Crackers Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Man, Brock vs Roman has me so conflicted. They had me believing we were watching one of the all time best Mania matches and probably best Mania main event but I really can't justify that finish. It wasn't even a cool non finish like a wild out of control brawl, it was a lame screwjob. Count me in the camp of being over the Money in the Bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I don't want the Wrestlemania main event to be an example of smart booking. I want it to give me a visceral sense of culmination. You wouldn't have got that from Roman Reigns capitalizing on his lucky break with the ring post dazing and bloodying Lesnar, throwing every finisher he has at him and finally slaying the beast against all odds? That is about as definitive a culmination as you will get. Yes, I would have. That was my point. I would've been perfectly happy with that. We're arguing on the same side. This is the funniest thing I have read tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Just finished the reaction show and I just thought about something... Brock was clearly dominant in the bulk of the match but Reigns gained little victories because every time he was able to make contact with Brock, he made him bleed. First thirty seconds, he busts him by his yee, then the knee to the face and his mouth is bleeding and then after getting destroyed, ramming his head into the ringpost. A little touch that made this feel like a classic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Great Mania despite a the old guard all winning. Main event was a MOTY level match. Hope Reigns gets the credit he deserves there because he was right with Lesnar. Just finished the reaction show where my thoughts are more defined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'm so torn on that finish. On the one hand Reigns was not going to be a great champ at this point. He wasn't over enough. On the other, he had just gone to WAR with Brock and it was just left hanging. Fuck you for not giving me either Reigns getting his win before the cash in or Lesnar finally putting reigns away. That match demands a real finish. Ok, I had to stop here because I've been reading enough of this thread and it's driving me crazy This was the perfect finish and perfect booking Reigns and Brock will have another match at some point, with a "real finish" but Reigns going over and being champ wasn't the right finish right now, and we all know it. He looked great in that match and it did wonders for him, he earned respect and will be infinitely more over and accepted now......but beating Brock for the belt.....no. With Brock around on limited dates for 3 more years.....the way he's been built up? NO. Wrong place wrong time (as Heyman said in a promo during the build) Brock winning? Then what? This way.......Reigns is chasing Rollins and the title.....his old Shield buddy who stole his moment of glory. And Randy Orton....who hates Seth and beat him earlier in the show and never got his title rematch after losing at WM last year (where Batista tapped, which was brought up in promos)......he should be first in line for a title shot. And then there's Brock...........who already had issues with Seth......who probably earned a bit of respect for Roman but still wants to f'n murder him.......and Orton who he's never crossed paths with in WWE So that's 4 guys in the title picture and a bunch of fresh matchups......with the awesome opportunistic sleazy heel champ and 3 great challengers. I think all 4 of them got more over via the booking of this......Lesnar is gonna be a bigger face than he already was......Reigns earned his stripes.....and Orton (love him or hate him) is Orton and he's always over and great in these roles (though not according to the PWO experts) Also, anyone who thinks Rusev should have beat Cena......wtf are you smoking?!? This loss doesn't hurt Rusev at all. Saving his win streak for Roman Reigns at SS when Reigns wasn't even that over and Rusev/Lana were already getting cheered for being awesome........I seriously don't get where the fuck some of you come up with these failures of booking ideas. Cena as US champ is great, it's a perfect role for him at this point, and they can move on with some Rusev/Lana drama or have Rusev go on a rampage and just kill a bunch of people and he'll be fine. The undefeated streak lost it's luster already a long time ago And Taker/Wyatt.......Wyatt's character has been dead in the water for quite some time.....the idea of putting him over Taker because "elevate the new guyz" is just dumb. I like Wyatt a lot as a performer.......but a) his character sucks right now, he's not that over, c) it's retarded to bring Taker back to lose again when the whole idea is to show he's still got a bit left in his tank to build to his last match at WM in Texas Also, I thought Taker looked pretty darn good for a guy his age as banged up as he is who hasn't wrestled in a year. He did 'Old School', he did the apron legdrop.......he didn't look great but do any of these old dogs look vintage? His performance was perfect for the story and the crowd was digging it....and I think the crowd is a better barometer than some super critical hyper wrestling fans on the internet, no offense Anyway, I've got stuff to say about the rest of the show (almost all positive, because the show was great), but the criticism of the booking of those 3 matches was sticking in my craw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 My friend and I talked about this being the likely finish for WM. It's gotten too predictable. Thought the show was thoroughly forgettable, but no real surprise since Vince has been lazy for years now. Really? I thought it was a masterclass. Maybe Pat Patterson was in town for more than just a shout out. Think about it. 1. Outcome 1, Reigns wins. Fans say: the company are pushing their man, Bryan, Bryan, wah, wah. 2. Outcome 2, Lesnar wins. Fans say: the title is on a guy who only works three dates a year, wah, wah. 3. Outcome 3, Rollins wins after Lesnar and Reigns have a great match, sense of injustice for Reigns who is now a "great worker" in the fans eyes, sense of injustice for Brock (now a face too) after he lost the title without getting pinned. Plus Orton is another challenger. "Lazy"? I don't think so. The lazy thing to do would have been to give the strap back to Bryan. THANK YOU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 And I'm curious as to what everyone thinks was the better alternative. Sticking to their guns. Roman Reigns being crowned the champion, taking advantage of the one mistake, the one weak moment/lucky strike to put Brock down. The spear was the perfect moment to do it. Seemed like they built a flawless match up to that moment where they had finally got Reigns over as a credible, deserving, authentic champion after an all out war where he proved himself, and then changed directions once again. The whole booking is fucking ADD, and has been for years. Too much chasing hashtags and not enough definitive, concrete angles with compelling stories and emphatic conclusions. I suggest you rewatch the match....the crowd was digging Reigns when he was getting beat down but not staying down.....but when he went on big offense the majority were booing him.....and cheering when Lesnar kicked out of his stuff Crowd would have shit on Reigns winning.....no matter how much respect Reigns earned being standing toe to toe with Brock in the match.....Reigns actually beating him would have sent it down the crapper........and if you don't see that then you just aren't in tune with the WWE audience my friend. It's a process to get Reigns where he needs to be right now. WWE wizened up and have been booking accordingly (it's my feeling Heyman has a LOT to do with the change in Reigns' booking of late). Tonight was a great step in advancing Roman Reigns. Putting the belt on him would have taken all the work they've done to rehab him from the negative reactions and utterly ruined it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 So lying to fans about what matches are going to be on a card is okay if people like how it turns out? My issue is an ethical one in terms of false advertising, not so much a criticism of the booking itself. They actually spent one whole episode of Raw built around the idea of Rollins cashing in and making it a Triple Threat. It was heavily teased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 *pshwww* nobody here actually pays attention to RAW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Brock was clearly dominant in the bulk of the match but Reigns gained little victories because every time he was able to make contact with Brock, he made him bleed. First thirty seconds, he busts him by his yee, then the knee to the face and his mouth is bleeding and then after getting destroyed, ramming his head into the ringpost. A little touch that made this feel like a classic. I thought that he had amazing reactions for the times that he actually hurt Lesnar, that even he couldn't believe that he had just done it. He made everything that he got into a victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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