Matt D Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Got thoughts up on Cena vs Owens here on my blog. Needless to say, I had a fair bit to say on the subject. On another note, I see people ragging on Kalisto for...whatever that was, but I kind of liked it. I tend to like moments in matches that expose a wrestler's humanity, that try to remind us that wrestlers aren't omnipotent beings who always have the perfect strategy all the time. Especially in the guise of wrestlers going into a strange gimmick match and trying to adapt to new surroundings. Kalisto is a flippy do, and having been thrust into an Elimination Chamber, of all things, he decides from the outset "Well, I am the smallest dude in this crazy giant cage, in order to survive I am going to climb everything and jump off to create distance and attack dudes from the air." A good idea in theory given that his specialty is flying. BUT, once he's in there, he's trying to climb things and fly and it's just not working. He gets on top of the pod and New Day trap his leg in the roof. He tries again, and nobody in the ring is within jumping distance, and then New Day grab him again. He climbs the wall and then the roof in order to do...something, but once he's there he realises that he's stuck and can't do much of anything, except let go and topple onto everyone below. He had a strategy, it just...didn't pan out in reality. But that can happen when you put someone in as foreign an environment as putting a tiny flippy luchador into a giant cage with pods. Guys will try strange things. But they may not always work. Honestly I loved Kalisto in the Chamber. The poor goofball. I think people are shitting on the agent who put that together more than Kallisto, himself. As for the blog post, it was good and it's interesting to look back at the Wyatt feud with that in mind, because it was exactly what Bray was trying to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 The IC title match was so weird, the Sheamus stuff seemed like a planned spot but everyone in the ring was acting like it wasn't. It was like time froze until Dolph of all people started calling out spots to everyone so loud I'd bet even John Cena was like "dude, that was a bit much". I wonder if maybe it somehow got legit stuck and it threw everyone's timing off. I'm not usually part of the crowd that complains about PG, but when you bill a match on all the pain and agony it causes (when you can't really deliver on that in the current era) it's going to come off as lame. At least the tag chamber had the novelty of being something no one had seen before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Enthusiast Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 The show should have just been a two hour Cena/Owens special with a bunch of hype and maybe an undercard tag title match or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodySave Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Posting my thoughts before reading the rest of thread so I can jot my initial reactions down. I actually preferred Rollins/Ambrose to Cena/Owens. Owens simply couldn't have had a better WWE PPV debut. I love it because I know promoters that have crapped on Owens in the past because "he's pudgy" "he's out there wearing gym shorts" "he's a spot machine that doesn't have a WWE look at all"....and this makes them all look like the morons they are. But I love the Rollins/Ambrose series and this was another exciting chapter. Can't wait to see them in a rematch, and I typically despise the "5 rematches in 3 weeks" WWE formula. May go down as one of my favorite ref bumps ever, props to the ref. And I think the post match served to help cement Ambrose on a higher tier than a couple weeks ago. He's one of the few things this horrible crowd went apeshit for all night. Cena vs Owens, while something I think the standard WWE viewer will see as this historic epic, is a match I think the excitement/surprise of the finish is clouding the body of the match. Watching it, I thought "this is exactly the same style match I had with my WWF figures when I was 10." The moves were awesome, but the trading of bombs isn't resonating with me as it seems it did with many on Twitter. Honestly, I think part of it is Cena kicking out of the first pop-up powerbomb halfway through the match. Killed my enthusiasm at the time. Steen's powerbomb had been treated like a death certificate on NXT, with matches coming to a halt and doctors showing up, and even his segments in RAW with Cena put it over as a game ender. Here, it happens.....and then the match goes another 15 mins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 On Cena/Owens: I didn't think the kickouts were the problem as much as the turn-taking. It's not like there were any more kickouts than a 90s AJPW main event. But those matches had long runs of control with one guy getting several near-falls over the other, then a big transition. This had a good 10-15 straight minutes of big spot -> kickout -> weak transition -> repeat. I still thought it was a good match, to be clear, and absolutely a star-making performance. Not a MOTYC though, even though as a moment it will probably end up being much more memorable than many MOTYCs. I couldn't have said it better. They actually lost me during the final stretch, because it turned into the typical tepid WWE "epic" style, complete with Ownes using Cena's finisher, which is a cliché. Too bad, because it built to a very good match until then. So yeah, good match, terrific debut, but as always, let's see how they manage the following weeks and months. The fact that it was non-title doesn't tell me anything good for instance. Lilian Garcia is almost 49. Time for Zbyszko to stop stealing her gimmick. Wait, what ? Did I miss an episode here ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I never want to hear the announcers shout "FOR THE WIN!" again like they did over and over during every near-fall on this show. Is that a new thing, or am I only now noticing it? It's horrible! Nope, it's been going on for a while. "For the win !", "For the championship !", Cole does that all the time and kills pretty much every nearfalls with it. It's unbearable. I've noticed the same thing on the last NXT special too during the big matches. I barely watched the rest of the show, but damn those too elimination chambers match looked awful. And that Kalisto bump, not only was that useless, but it looked like crap too. Oh, and that Naomi/Paige botch was brutal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I still like the Prime Time Players being one of the last two teams, but this is definitely a show that looks even worse in the light of day than it did live. It was a house show haphazardly made into a "Network Event", and in hindsight feels careless and slapdash, even with Cena-Owens and the title changes. But so it goes when their business model is "More More More". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Lilian Garcia is almost 49. Time for Zbyszko to stop stealing her gimmick. Wait, what ? Did I miss an episode here ? Ha was just suggesting that looking like she does a couple ticks shy of 49 makes her much more of a living legend than anything Larry Z has done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I'm surprised to read the MOTYC talk around Cena-Owens. OK, I'm not really. But I fall very much with the folks who felt it was too my-turn-your-turn to stand as a truly great match. I applaud WWE for doing something splashy with it, and I applaud Cena for putting Owens over to such a degree That said, I still have some reservations about Owens as a pure in-ring guy. He's a great personality with command of some eye-popping moves, but the connective tissue in his matches often leaves me underwhelmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketCrypt Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I wasn't overly enamored with Cena/Owens. The endless near falls spots just reek of laziness and a complete lack of creativity. Any MOTY talk is hyperbole. It was still match of the night, though that's not saying a whole lot. Rollins/Ambrose as the main event program is completely ridiculous and a feud I have no investment in whatsoever. You have a champion who can't beat anyone clean against a challenger who, up until last month, lost for a year straight on pay per view. Then when you factor in both men doing their own little tribute acts to Triple H and Austin respectively, one which was shit to begin with, and the other which is just a comedic parody. This feud, and Rollins' title reign as a whole, has been pure garbage. I wish they'd have just stuck to their guns and given the belt to Reigns at Mania, had Rusev do to Cena what Owens has just done, then run with Reigns vs. Rusev on top, with Reigns getting the rub as the first man to pin Rusev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blak Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Cena/Owens isn't anywhere near MOTYC status for me but, in a way, I think that's actually a feature, not a bug. This match was clearly designed as an Owens showcase and, for that very specific goal, it succeeded big-time. It also leaves the door open for Cena and Owens to build a bigger and better match to match the bigger stakes at MITB. Rollins/Ambrose as the main event program is completely ridiculous and a feud I have no investment in whatsoever. You have a champion who can't beat anyone clean against a challenger who, up until last month, lost for a year straight on pay per view. Then when you factor in both men doing their own little tribute acts to Triple H and Austin respectively, one which was shit to begin with, and the other which is just a comedic parody. This feud, and Rollins' title reign as a whole, has been pure garbage. I agree with this 100%, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I need to watch Cena vs Owens again. I got the feeling first time watching it that there was no sense of struggle on Owens's part. Now I'm not sure if that was deliberate, but I didn't get the feeling that he was fighting for his life against the biggest star in wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Fun show. Genuinely surprised Owens went over that clean. I'm sure Cena wins the next match in two weeks to set-up a rubber match. Honestly don't hate the 2-week PPV format. Gives me a reason to use my WWE Network account more than once a month... Ambrose/Rollins lost me. The Chambers were fun just to see if anything happened (it didn't, really). Felt bad for Bo/Neville having to go on after Cena/Owens. Thought the Divas would try to do more after the great showing from Banks/Lynch on the NXT PPV. Basically the theme of the night is that I was wrong on pretty much everything I assumed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Count me in as one of the people who wasn't a big fan of Cena/Owens. As far as MOVEZ matches go, I thought Puma/Hernandez from Lucha Underground was much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 So, let's think about this a bit. What's the role of a Dusty finish in 2015? What's the role in the network era? What's the role in this new chapter of the network era where they're running specials so soon after one another? It actually feels a little more viable than it did a year and a half ago to me since they have another show in two weeks and people didn't pay nearly as much for the PPV. They at least learned from Bryan-Orton in 2013 not to wait to reverse the decision until the following night on television. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I really loved Cena-Owens. I don't really know what turn taking is other than a descriptor, and I'm not sure why it's necessarily bad. Finishing stretches usually tend to have both guys hitting desperation moves in succession, catching whatever they can. What's bad about that? I hear that thrown around as a criticism sometimes and I still don't know why. Are finishing stretches supposed to only have one guy hitting moves? It's funny that Childs mentioned the "connective tissue" because I actually think that's the best part of the Kevin Owens act. He trash talks, he plays to the crowd, he throws great punches, he's an asshole ... he actually wrestles like a heel. He's doing stuff no one else in WWE is doing, so it really comes across fresh. I think those details are what made the heat what it was, and it was sustained from beginning to end. I knew the finish since I watched this morning, but by the time they settled into the bomb trading, I felt like the match was already pretty great. So yeah, I loved it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I really loved Cena-Owens. I don't really know what turn taking is other than a descriptor, and I'm not sure why it's necessarily bad. Finishing stretches usually tend to have both guys hitting desperation moves in succession, catching whatever they can. What's bad about that? I hear that thrown around as a criticism sometimes and I still don't know why. Are finishing stretches supposed to only have one guy hitting moves? Wrestler #1 hits a bomb. How does Wrestler #2 get to hit the next bomb. How do they make that work when Wrestler #1 should still have the advantage? If they do a good job with it, it's not an issue. If they do a great job with it, then it becomes a huge plus. The longer the finishing stretch goes, the harder it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Define that. What's the difference between bad and good in that context? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 If it's a long finishing stretch: Do they put any effort in to creating these little momentum shifts/transitions or do they just happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Let's talk about this in common match criticisms so we don't derail this thread. I just posted there. I'm looking for specific examples in specific matches of good and of bad, because I don't understand - if each move is being sold - what the problem is, unless one believes that every move should change the complexion of the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I'm unable to pull too many examples right now due to time constraints. Next time I watch a lucha apuestas or title match I'll try to note this. I think, actually, a good match to look at would be the one from last night. My problem (so much as it was a problem, because as many people have said, the problems in the match actually sort of worked as features) was how long the finishing stretch was relative the rest of the match. Someone else will have to make the my turn, your turn argument though. Maybe I'll watch a Volador, Jr./Mistico I match later and pin that down. I kind of hate those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Cena/Owens seems like a clear cut case of people projecting their emotional investments onto a match to make it seems smarter and better than it actually was. I made similar complaints about some prominent New Japan matches in the past few years--I'm certainly guilty of it myself---but it's never worse than when we're talking about WWE. Everyone is so eager to see their favorites prosper there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I have no investment in Kevin Owens, really. I like John Cena far better. I just thought that was a great match for the reasons I outlined above. I'm not being blinded by fanboyism or anything like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Fair enough, but if that's the case I don't think you've done a great job explaining why it is such a smart, great match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I'm reminded why I hate message boards these days. I explained above, and you responded by questioning my motives and then telling me my explanation was unsatisfactory. Charming. Say what you want about the match, I don't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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