JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s

[Matt D]

One thing that can't be discounted is that nearly the same pairings work the same crowd week after week after week. I'm so deep down this rabbit hole now that I thoroughly enjoy looking for the variations and seeing how a trio might decide to work a match one week to the next and why. If you have a similar pairing, they absolutely won't work the same trios match two weeks in a row. They might, however, work something very similar in two different arenas over the same week or two (but that's interesting as well).

 

I do think that different wrestlers work within the rigidity differently and that's what makes it all so interesting. I'm often looking for little character moments and every match, good or bad, will have more than a few.

[jdw]

 

The review of Santito vs Rey makes my head hurt.

Care to elaborate?

 

 

Well one can start off with your time stamps, which aren't actually the match time, and go from there. They don't tie up for the first time at 8:00, but actually 2:30. They tie up again at 2:50, and then after the after the faux ejection they lock up again at the 4:45 to start a roughly three minute sequence of holds exchanged before we get the real ejection sequence starting at 7:35. All of that before your "8:00" mark in the review.

 

It's sloppy or lazy reviewing when using "stamps" to not pay attention to when the match actually starts, and the real match times. I get that you likely watched the Barnett hand held version, with the match starting about 4:15 into the youtube video, rather than the wide high angle single cam shoot that has the bell about 0:10 into the youtube video. I get it because I've seen both over the years, and saw it a third way as well. But folks reading your review don't, and would be misled into thinking 2:30 is 8:00, or into believing that an three minute segment of holds didn't happen before your "They don't actually lock up until the 8-minute mark" comment.

 

I could go on from there pointing out any number of things in the first fall, but will just move ahead to a complete whiff on Santito's selling at the end of the first fall, between falls, and how he comes out wobbly for the second, which contrasts with this:

 

No real sense of flow or story in this match so far.

 

 

There is story and flow: Rey has Santito rocked bad, to the degree that the time between the falls doesn't help him recover.

 

Rey sees it, and comes out like a monster with the instant drop kick at the bell as Santito is wobbling around. Follows it with a second that tumbles him out of the ring, then nails him with a tope. How badly does he have him hurt? He's confident enough to toss him back in the ring and go for one of his finishers: the springboard huracanrana. How confident? He signals to the crowd that this is it, and Santito was going down in straight falls (something that Psicosis did two years earlier, and Tijuana fans weren't ignorant to their boys history). What happens? Counter into a Liger Bomb for a flash pin.

 

Our Young Hero goes out after the vet like a monster, has him on the ropes, and falls to his own hubris.

 

Others have pointed out that second falls are often short. This was, but it told a story in its short time.

 

Missing again from your review is how Rey sold the fuck out of the flash pin between falls, and this time Santito calls back to the prior fall by hitting the instant dropkick to, but unlike Rey he's more methodical in breaking him down, mixing in big moves (two bulldogs and the diving body attack from the top), submissions, and some of those nifty lucha pinning holds. The actually work in a nice false hope spot that you ignore the point of: whip into the corner with Santito running into Rey's boots to give Rey hope, which he lets go to his head with the charge out of the corner that leads to the really cool counter by Santito by flipping him up into the air face first into the corner. In all, we get close to three minutes of a nice picking apart of Rey by Santito, finishing with a nice moment of Santito going to the well once too often: the third (not second) bulldog attempt.

 

I'm a little scratching my head over your wondering about Rey's gameplan. It's what it always is: hit a big fucking move to pin his opponent. He balances damaging Santito (the two low angle drop kicks, one to the back and one to the front along with the leg lariat) with the springboard moonsault (Santito "saved" by the ropes) and the guillotine legdrop off the top (Santito "saved" by the ropes again). It's a face vs face match, so Rey gives a nod to working it technical style with a couple of submissions attempts. The last transition is another "going to the well too often" moment as Rey goes for another back body drop, and Santito nails him with a running knee lift that Rey bumps nicely for back into the corner.

 

You've got one kneelift by Santito. It was four. These weren't candy ass Ric Flair knee lifts. This was Santito going all Jumbo on his ass just kneelifting the fuck out of him, with Rey selling each one well, getting across initially the rapid shift in momentum and then the escalation of damage as the last one has him going out of the ring to be crushed by Santito's fast and beautiful tope suicida.

 

Rey's toast, and it's just a matter of Santito putting on the family's finisher: the camel clutch. Rey is fucking awesome in escaping it four times.

 

As far as the finish, Rey is going for one of his finishers the springboad huracan rana and is countered by a dropkick to the gut, not by the camel clutch. The clutch gets applied after the counter. Does the springboard move look exactly like the motion of the huracan rana? No, because the counter would kick him in the nuts/balls and positionally risk falling back head/neck into the ropes uncontrolled. So he comes in more springboard body attack / splash, which isn't really one of his moves. It's the same as heels coming off the ropes to eat a punch or a boot: their body direction doesn't really mimic anything real that they use, we know it's a transition spot, so we pretend what they were "really" intending to hit before they were counted. Basically most of the time Arn or Flair come off the corner and eat a shot.

 

Springboad huracan rana? One of Rey's finishers, and a big move. Consistent with what Rey was doing in the third fall: looking for the big move to put Santito away.

 

In turn, Santito was more methodical, looking to take Rey apart, if a pin was there with a big move, he'd take it, and if not he had the clutch as always. Which when deployed, the two used perfectly. People talk about Rey's selling later in his career in the WWF, but he was already back in those days a really good seller of damage. He'd get up and go when it was time to go, but that was a common thing in Lucha... and if we're honest, in damn near all of wrestling. Santito was also a very good seller, and the selling between the first and second fall were things that we saw all the time in building in that era.

 

# # # # #

 

Is it a great match? No. I don't think anyone pimps it as that. But it was a shitload of fun in the building. In part because we thought Carlos would run some bullshit finish to get Rey the win, and that didn't happen. It was straight, clean, and after the early bullshit they wrestled a match that was fitting with what Rey was up to at that time, and what Santito had been up to in his AAA days. It was filled with a lot of stuff that people from that era would recognize as Rey and Santito spots. It's pretty fun on video to watch again for the first time in more than a decade.

 

Is it a great review? No. It's lazy, errant at various points from the start to the finish, and consistently missing the boat. I frankly went light on it and could have pointed out more. It's like a * star review, if that.

 

# # # # #

 

Elaborated enough, or do I need to touch on more?

 

 

# # # # #

 

Edit: "These were candy ass Ric Flair knee lifts." to "These weren't candy ass Ric Flair knee lifts."

Edited November 3, 2015 by jdw

[JerryvonKramer]

No, that ought to do it.

[fxnj]

There are different ways to work a trios match. The reason they're generic is because they're repetitive. The vast majority of lucha matches are trios matches and therefore your mileage varies just as it does with every other style. The majority of all wrestling is boring, disappointing and generic. As fans we're looking for the moments of greatness and lucha is no different. Great lucha exists. It may exist in lesser quantity than your favourite style, but it exists.

 

The thing is, at least on paper, with the emphasis on mat work, the springy mat, and the rolling bumps, lucha should be far more conductive to giving guys the chance to go all-out and deliver an exciting match even on small shows than, say, peak AJ and NOAH. And, as you pointed out earlier, lucha trios guys often have the huge advantage of performing against long-term rivals, giving them an endless bag of tricked out counters and call back spots to sprinkle throughout the match. What could stop them being great every time out?

 

To me, that actually was the case with peak IWRG. I haven't followed them in a few years but during that 2009-20111 period Negro Navarro, Solar, and other maestros, most of which were over 50, were tearing shit up almost every time they showed up. But then I'd look at CMLL and see such talentedand athletic young guys being boxed into working by the numbers bullshit. Anyone care to explain why CMLL/AAA is the be-all-end-all of lucha?

[jdw]

Is a springy mat a common thing in lucha now? Back when we were going to house shows, lucha has the worst mats and "spring" of any rings we'd ever seen. No give, just horrendous.

[pantherwagner]

 

There are different ways to work a trios match. The reason they're generic is because they're repetitive. The vast majority of lucha matches are trios matches and therefore your mileage varies just as it does with every other style. The majority of all wrestling is boring, disappointing and generic. As fans we're looking for the moments of greatness and lucha is no different. Great lucha exists. It may exist in lesser quantity than your favourite style, but it exists.

The thing is, at least on paper, with the emphasis on mat work, the springy mat, and the rolling bumps, lucha should be far more conductive to giving guys the chance to go all-out and deliver an exciting match even on small shows than, say, peak AJ and NOAH. And, as you pointed out earlier, lucha trios guys often have the huge advantage of performing against long-term rivals, giving them an endless bag of tricked out counters and call back spots to sprinkle throughout the match. What could stop them being great every time out?

 

To me, that actually was the case with peak IWRG. I haven't followed them in a few years but during that 2009-20111 period Negro Navarro, Solar, and other maestros, most of which were over 50, were tearing shit up almost every time they showed up. But then I'd look at CMLL and see such talentedand athletic young guys being boxed into working by the numbers bullshit. Anyone care to explain why CMLL/AAA is the be-all-end-all of lucha?

 

 

Modern CMLL and AAA are no different to WWE in that they are a carefully timed and produced TV product. If it comes off as boxed by the numbers bullshit, it is because it is. Other promotions like IWRG, or things that you see popping up like Chilanga Mask, aren't TV products. It's wrestling on TV (or tape), which is quite different. If you watch older CMLL (and even older AAA) you can see what I mean. It used to be wrestling that got shown on TV like a real sport would be. Guys wouldn't be necessarily working for the hard camera or sometimes for the camera at all, but now that is obviously different.

[Matt D]

I sort of admit that three years and another six or seven hundred matches down the line I might be completely sick and fed up of the CMLL house style. I'm still enjoying it for the most part so long as there are a few guys in a match that I like. Unlike someone like Cubs, I don't watch everything either. I'm pretty choosy and I have years and years and years of footage to choose from currently, on top of the new stuff.

[Loss]

Suplexes and powerbombs in lucha libre matches annoy me to no end. It's an unnecessary add-in of American/Japanese stuff that works against what makes lucha something cool and distinct.

[pol]

Lucha rings are still notoriously hard as far as I know.

 

I imagine the fact that pay is low and guys have to preserve their bodies since they can work up to 10 matches a week has a lot to do with them not going all-out very often also.

[jdw]

A Liger Bomb as a natural counter to a huracan rana is a perfectly fine move to be added to lucha.

 

On powerbombs, one of the early ones that I recall regularly seeing in lucha was Panther doing his version of what we called the Sammy Bomb: El Samurai's jumping power bomb coming down on your knees. If Blue Panther does something, it's cool and acceptable in lucha.

 

I enjoyed Eddy & Art suplexing people all over the place. It fit their super rudo ways, and fit in with them being not exactly pure lucha rudos.

 

Never worried too much about it.

[jdw]

Lucha rings are still notoriously hard as far as I know.

 

That's what I would have thought.

[goc]

I thought lucha rings were really hard because they're essentially boxing rings. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere and that it has to do with the boxing and wrestling commission still being so heavily involved.

[pantherwagner]

Suplexes and powerbombs in lucha libre matches annoy me to no end. It's an unnecessary add-in of American/Japanese stuff that works against what makes lucha something cool and distinct.

 

That has never bothered me much because it's just moves and if you use them properly then can enhance a match. What bothered me a lot (I have now given up) was seeing young talented luchadores working a soft hitting version of NJPW 90s juniors style within the rules of lucha libre.

[goc]

 

Suplexes and powerbombs in lucha libre matches annoy me to no end. It's an unnecessary add-in of American/Japanese stuff that works against what makes lucha something cool and distinct.

 

That has never bothered me much because it's just moves and if you use them properly then can enhance a match. What bothered me a lot (I have now given up) was seeing young talented luchadores working a soft hitting version of NJPW 90s juniors style within the rules of lucha libre.

 

That's actually one of the reasons I liked El Dandy more in his earlier appearances on the lucha set than I did in his stuff in 89 and some of the stuff I've seen from 1990 although I know I'm way in the minority on that.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

There are different ways to work a trios match. The reason they're generic is because they're repetitive. The vast majority of lucha matches are trios matches and therefore your mileage varies just as it does with every other style. The majority of all wrestling is boring, disappointing and generic. As fans we're looking for the moments of greatness and lucha is no different. Great lucha exists. It may exist in lesser quantity than your favourite style, but it exists.

The thing is, at least on paper, with the emphasis on mat work, the springy mat, and the rolling bumps, lucha should be far more conductive to giving guys the chance to go all-out and deliver an exciting match even on small shows than, say, peak AJ and NOAH. And, as you pointed out earlier, lucha trios guys often have the huge advantage of performing against long-term rivals, giving them an endless bag of tricked out counters and call back spots to sprinkle throughout the match. What could stop them being great every time out?

 

To me, that actually was the case with peak IWRG. I haven't followed them in a few years but during that 2009-20111 period Negro Navarro, Solar, and other maestros, most of which were over 50, were tearing shit up almost every time they showed up. But then I'd look at CMLL and see such talentedand athletic young guys being boxed into working by the numbers bullshit. Anyone care to explain why CMLL/AAA is the be-all-end-all of lucha?

 

 

If trios matches were the least bit special -- only used in the main event, for example -- there'd be a greater chance of them being classic matches, but because practically every match is a trios bout they only stand out if they're a championship bout, if there's a hot promotional run, an awesome lead in to an apuesta bout, or one of those rare nights where everything clicks. Expecting trios matches to be great is like expecting the baseline for any promotion to be great. Since the baseline for most promotions is average, lucha's really no different to any other style of wrestling where there's the cream of the crop and everything else. It's just that the cream of the crop tends to be singles matches because of how rare they are.

 

The IWRG guys had a nice little run with a core group of guys. The IWRG/maestros style has its flaws, but they did produce a lot of cool stuff. I just think it's tough to sell people on the indy stuff if they've never dabbed in the mainstream.

 

Another frustrating thing about lucha is that the patches of goodness are short lived. The minis will be great for a while and then they're featured less. The Puebla locals will be great until they're no longer booked. IWRG will have a great run and then it loses its TV or the booking heads in a different direction. Maybe there's a short program in CMLL that's great, but it's over and there's no local follow-on from it. That may be my impression from cherry picking the modern stuff, but it always feels so disorganised.

[JerryvonKramer]

This is a birthday present of sorts for Grimmas, who requested my view on this match:

 

Necro Butcher vs. Samoa Joe (6/11/05)

 

Commentary is risible so I am going to have to ignore it, I believe it is Dave Prazak and CM Punk. This is taking place in Philly for IWA-MS. Stiff brawling to start. Joe kicks the crap out of Butcher sitting in the chair. Really stiff headbutts, and Joe's head is so hard Butcher catches colour from it. Power slam onto Butcher's forehead on the concrete (?!). Knee lift. This has been brutal. Butcher has a lot of blood. A lot of shout outs to Rob Naylor from announce team.

 

Butcher goes and gets some guard rail and throws it at Joe. Senton onto the rail, I might have to mute the commentator, STFU already! Slam off the apron by Joe. Butcher has a lot of blood, crowd with holy shit chants. Prazak might be my all-time least favourite announcer.

 

Butcher a bloody mess. Powerbomb by Joe onto the guard rail, German onto a chair. Joe with stiff chops, knee strikes. Massive, sick knee lift. Kick. The blood is almost congealing here, like an 80s horror film directed by Sam Raimi. Post-match, Joe goes for a pot shot. Butcher is enraged. Joe runs off. It's over after 12 mins? Video is 30 mins ...

 

I have a feeling this isn't over. Oh it is. They just replay the whole match. Okay, well I'll watch it again writing up my thoughts.

 

This had some massive high spots, the kick and headbutt sequence outside was sick and brutal, the slam by Joe onto the floor was sick, the slam by Joe off the apron was also a sick spot, as well as the powerbomb onto the guard rail and German into the chair. And the way the blood was almost curdling at the finish was grissly as fuck.

 

This is a brutal match and a spectacle of violence, and if you look at what they do is more brutal than the high end brawls I have ranked up in my top 100 (Tully vs Magnum, Funks vs. Abby and Sheik, Slaughter vs. Iron Sheik and so on). And this, unfortunately, is where context comes into play. It's impossible to ignore a self-aware smart Philly crowd baying for blood and wanting to be seen baying for blood. It's impossible to ignore also the abysmal commentary, I was trying to tune both things out, but the context is a part of the match whether we like it or not. And that context changes the nature of the match: it does not leave you with the impression that you've just seen a blood-soaked hate-filled brawl -- well at least it didn't leave me feeling that way -- it left me feeling that Butcher was proud to have bled for this crowd and that he was soaking up the adulation at the end. It cheapened the violence and although the spots are sick and brutal enough still to resonate beyond that, the self-awareness of the spectacle breaks the immersion and suspension of disbelief almost totally for me.

 

Where we see Magnum vs. Tully end with the arrogant heel reduced and humiliated, or Funks vs. Abby & Sheik '78 with Dory totally losing it to the red mist and Sheik broken in body and spirit, or any of the other brawls I have at 5-star or 4.75 which have that little something to push them over the edge, here we just get violence for its own sake. Joe wins and leaves. Butcher sticks around covered in blood and soaking up holy shit chants from a cult of smart fans. The first two examples approach being as profound as wrestling can get for me, this one is more like an exploitation horror film playing to a little indie cinema of horror nerds. It is brutal for sure, but it is also cheap, nasty and sleazy and is ... both aware of this and celebrates itself for it. So essentially it is damaged by context and what I perceive to be post-modern inauthenticity ...

 

Did I enjoy it? Fuck yes, I did. But I can't give it more than the rating I'm about to drop for all of the above. That said, some of the sickest spots I've ever seen. Butcher is just mental, dude must have a death wish and Joe is one of the all-time great offensive workers.

 

****1/2

[Grimmas]

Amazing! Thanks Parv.

 

Glad you loved it as much as me (4 1/2 stars). This was a sick dream match between a crazy death match worker and a strong style brawler and it really worked. I thought the commentary was good though, as it was essentially Prazak, Punk and I think Eddie Kingston marking out like crazy.

[Timbo Slice]

Prazar had a tendency to get grating at times, though. I can see what Parv's saying there. The color stuff is way better than Prazak's actual call.

[Grimmas]

If Prazzak didn't say "man" he would be a million times better.

[soup23]

I don't think this quite reaches the visceral hatred level of Tully vs. Magnum or Sheiks vs. Funks (in your eyes) hence why I have it at ****3/4 vs. *****, but I do think this was such an incredible match in the landscape of indy wrestling at the time. The main threads of indy wrestlings up to that point where exposure, apathetic contests and a return to wrestling with strong style, Japanese high spots thrown in. Danielson vs. Low - KI and Punk vs. Joe both personified this. Even blood feuds like Raven vs. Punk and Joe vs. Homicide had some interesting angle moments but I don't think they were able to ever combine the best brawling aspects from the 80's into a more modern perspective. This match does it and is a match that has resonated with non-fans tremendously. It doesn't overstay its welcome and it blends together death match style spots with the prevailing theme still remaining that I don't like this guy and want to beat him up. A truly great spectacle match.

[Bierschwale]

I'm not going to try to explain something that you probably already know because it's patronizing but this is the story of the match and its context: Necro, the king of modern death matches, going "legit" to face the biggest monster that the indies had to offer, taking everything that he had to offer, losing but still somehow surviving, is what it's about. Everyone knew that he'd lose, but how much could he take? How much punishment is he going to invite upon himself and how much will Joe oblige him? What can he do to Joe that Joe's never really experienced before? Necro's just a dirty hillbilly who'll put himself on death's door to win but this is his chance. Maybe the only chance he'll ever get.

 

It's a self-aware match in this respect, but it's a very authentic and sincere story. I can understand "Something to Prove" not being the context that you like, there's been a lot of variations on that theme that I don't like, but this was the originator for the modern American scene and I think that it's maintained its power.

[Phil Schneider]

There is also the story of Necro brutalizing two ROH trainees in a Chikara King of Trios and Joe being the big brother looking for revenge. I love this match, but I think Necro v. Ki and Necro v. Super Dragon are even better, Necro is the greatest indy dream match wrestler of all time, they almost always delivered.

[Dylan Waco]

You know - I don't think I ever saw Necro v Dragon

[Lust Hogan]

Have you reviewed this match Parv? I think you would like it!

 

 

IWGP Junior Heaviweight Tag Team Title Match

 

Justin 'Thunder' Liger & Koji Kanemoto vs. Yoshinobu Kanemaru & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi - January 26th 2003 - Kobe World Hall

 

This is one of the matches from the New Japan vs. NOAH Jr. Series. Lots of hate!!!!

[Childs]

Why start at the end of the feud?