JerryvonKramer Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 PTBN page: http://placetobenation.com/fair-for-flair/ Part 1: Strategy and Psychology https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-1 In the first of his four-part mini series, Parv welcomes Marty Sleaze (Tag Teams Back Again) to discuss STRATEGY. Topics include: - What is Ric Flair's basic gameplan in kayfabe terms? - How does Flair's character factor into his psychology? - Is Flair a "smart" worker? - How valid is the "stuff to do" criticism? - How does Flair's psychology compare to Nick Bockwinkel's? Part 2: The Art of the Promo https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-2 In the second part of this mini-series, Parv focuses on Ric Flair's ability to cut promos. Taking a seven-month period from his debut in the WWF in September 91 to his title loss to Randy Savage at Wrestlemania 8, he takes a detailed look at the promos he was cutting week-by-week to develop an understanding of how he built his character and his feuds through them. In the process, he puts forward an argument for why Flair is the greatest promo of all time. 9/9/91 - debut in WWF, Prime Time. 9/21/92 - Promo on Hulk Hogan, Funeral Parlour, Superstars. 9/22/91 - Promo on Hulk Hogan, Barber Shop, Challenge 10/6/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Superstars 10/13/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Challenge 10/20/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Challenge 10/26/91 - Promo on Roddy Piper, Superstars 1/11/92 - Promo before Royal Rumble, Funeral Parlour, Superstars 1/18/92 - Promo before Royal Rumble, Superstars 1/19/92 - Promo after winning WWF title, Royal Rumble 3/7/92 - Promo on Randy Savage, Superstars 3/28/92 - Press conference ahead of Wrestlemania 8, Superstars 4/5/92 - Promo after losing WWF title to Savage, Wrestlemania 8 Part 3: Top 20 Matches https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-3 On part 3 of this mini-series Parv welcomes Pete (Titans of Wrestling, This Week in Wrestling), who picks and analyses his Top 20 Ric Flair matches and discusses Flair's body of work in the ring. Part 4: Assessing Flair for the Greatest Wrestler Ever project https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-4 On part 4, Parv welcomes Charles (Pro Wrestling Only) to discuss Flair's case for the Greatest Wrestler Ever project and to assess how he compares with other top-tier candidates such as Terry Funk, Jerry Lawler, Stan Hansen, Jumbo Tsuruta, Genichiro Tenryu, Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, Toshiaki Kawada, Tatsumi Fujinami, Negro Casas, El Satanico, and many others. Part 5: The Thunderdome https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-5 In a special unscheduled Part 5, Parv welcomes Good Ol' Will from Texas to debate some of the claims made in parts 1-4. A good range of topics are covered including: psychology, great match theory, how to assess candidates, the importance of different styles, subjectivity, Jerry Lawler, peak vs. longevity, burnout and much more. Strap yourselves in, it's gonna be a bumpy night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I absolutely loved doing this podcast about Ric Flair and strategy. So much is said about Flair's running around like a chicken with his head cut off or getting stuff in or lack of psychology. I assert quite strongly to contrary that Flair's strategy is 100% consistent with his character, his place of being the champion and his number one physical attribute (his outstanding cardiovascular ability). Listen to the podcast, and please let me know if you agree or disagree. Kayfabe strategy is my number one favorite thing to discuss and would love to hear people's opinions. Parv, thank you for having me on. I will definitely listen to your solo venture on Flair's WWF promos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I really enjoyed both of these. Fantastic work. Really detailed stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute. Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them. This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Well, we do have a board for that, and people have never really pulled any punches when disagreeing with Parv about something. This thread can be used to share any disagreements. Heck, if someone wants to do an audio recording presenting a flipside argument, they are welcome to do that and start a thread for it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlingshotSuplex Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 I love the four faces of Flair theory, especially the obsessive sociopath aspect. Back in the '80s, I detected the subtle difference in character and in-ring performance of challenger Flair v. champion Flair. The whole gimmick depended on his obsession with being the man. When he dropped the strap, his very identity was at risk. Without the title, the level of desparation borders on destructive. He must regain the title or lose his very sense of self. I think you're right that, as champ this desperation steadily simmers under the surface, though. Just started Part 2 on promos. Upon first glance at the list of promos, I was shocked that an episode on Flair & the art of the promo would contain only WWF examples, but two promos in, I can't believe how much I love those interviews. Your analysis of what they accomplish is spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute. Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them. This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best. To be...no pun intened, fair, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to be a contrarian on any aspect of Ric Flair's career. Even if you think someone was a better promo or story teller in the ring, it would be hard to find someone that doesn't think Flair belongs in the conversation about the best of all time in those aspects. To say nothing about said person being willing to sit down for a long recording about the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute. Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them. This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best. To be...no pun intened, fair, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to be a contrarian on any aspect of Ric Flair's career. Even if you think someone was a better promo or story teller in the ring, it would be hard to find someone that doesn't think Flair belongs in the conversation about the best of all time in those aspects. To say nothing about said person being willing to sit down for a long recording about the topic. The entire reason Parv produced these podcasts is the fact that there are contrarians out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute. Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them. This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best. To be...no pun intened, fair, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to be a contrarian on any aspect of Ric Flair's career. Even if you think someone was a better promo or story teller in the ring, it would be hard to find someone that doesn't think Flair belongs in the conversation about the best of all time in those aspects. To say nothing about said person being willing to sit down for a long recording about the topic. The entire reason Parv produced these podcasts is the fact that there are contrarians out there. Just how low on Flair are these contrarians? Not quite top 10 material? Borderline top 100? Simply not fans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Seems kind of a waste to have this discussion and not have anyone there to actually argue the points you're attempting to dispute. Its relatively easy to brush off the conflicting opinions when you don't have anyone there to advocate them. This seems more like shouting into a echo chamber for that sweet, sweet confirmation that your guy is number one and best. To be...no pun intened, fair, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone to be a contrarian on any aspect of Ric Flair's career. Even if you think someone was a better promo or story teller in the ring, it would be hard to find someone that doesn't think Flair belongs in the conversation about the best of all time in those aspects. To say nothing about said person being willing to sit down for a long recording about the topic. The entire reason Parv produced these podcasts is the fact that there are contrarians out there. Just how low on Flair are these contrarians? Not quite top 10 material? Borderline top 100? Simply not fans? For Parv a Flair contrarian means you don't have him as your number 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Come on Parv has his number 2, last I heard. Although it seems out of the top 3 is laughable. I have him 4-10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 To me Flair was a great athlete, with so much charisma who did a lot of cool stuff. He has so many all-time great matches too. The problem is, I don't think he was that smart of a worker. That is the type of thing that puts him down a few spots to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blak Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 I don't think there's anything wrong with having a podcast episode or mini-series dedicated to a single wrestler; I'd like to see more of it, actually, and it's not like people aren't fawning over the Carlos Colon episode of Exile just a couple of threads over. (And deservedly so, because it's excellent!) That said, I haven't been around on the board for very long and even I knew exactly who was going to be hosting this, just by the title of the thread/show. I don't know that there's a lot of rhetorical space left for Flair arguments and counter-arguments at this point, but I'll listen anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 One thing I enjoyed with Part 2 was how that Flair switched up his generic promos selling the house shows. For instance, his one for MSG has him showing much more charisma and using more of his Slick Ric persona talking about limousines than the one he does in the more blue collared Boston area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 I am listening to this now. I do think this is possibly the best case that could ever be made that Flair isn't some idiot savant of wrestling, possibly the greatest ever idiot savant. But having on ONLY people who agree with your perspective on Flair in all the essentials and who ONLY back Flair as #1 actually hurts your chances of convincing me your arguments are correct. Because anyone that confident should be willing to have on those who disagree such as an EL-P. Or someone such as myself (not that I have ever done one) who believes Flair is an easy lock for GOAT 1-3 but not quite convinced he's #1 obviously. As a historian Parv, you should be aware of the dangers of presenting this limiting a perspective. It weakens your ability to convince anyone truly thoughtful and on the fence. As for the "Flair has stuff to do" I don't think you get it Parv. Undertaker in 92 being ordered to do press slams is the perfect example of this. It's a move the guy NEVER used in ten years but Flair likes the spot. Does Flair respect his opponent enough to let him do HIS moves and not moves Flair likes. Hmmmm. I don't think it's respect per se as a problem but rather Flair just doesn't THINK about what he's doing enough to truly interact with his opponents in the way the #1 GOAT should. I always relate to wrestling to stage acting as it is what I know and I would NEVER force a fellow actor to do "my stuff" in the way Flair does. I don't think that's Flair's fault I think that's the fault of what he was forced to do because of his schedule. BUT when things changed, Flair didn't. He still used that SAME logic when he was wrestling the same guy 20 nights in a row AND when he's only working 15 nights a month or less. Is that because that was when he slipped out of his physical prime? Maybe but that's not all of it. It's probably my single greatest criticism of Flair the worker. If anything knocked him out of #1 it would be that. Having said that this was the perfect length and a good listen but struck me as sort of pointless in a way. It exists to prove something we're never going to allow to hear about except from someone who seems to believe it has NO value whatsoever. I don't mean to come down hard on you Parv, but I tend to be harder on people I agree with more than those I don't. Matwork vs. strategy was a good debate, again let's bring someone in who might argue the point. Or a Bock fan. Or Terry or Jerry fans. Let's open this up, play it out and see where it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Listening to the promos podcast now. I don't care for the solo format, but this was a great example. It's Flair working with Vince's ability to write a story that has a beginning, middle and ending. This was the perfect choice to see Flair on the mic and I agree as great if not greater than his best work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 One thing Parv Flair saying only the WWF title isn't a heel move IMO it's Vince making sure fans know what the really important belt is and leaving no doubt WCW is vastly inferior. It means even more coming from Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 BTW, give credit where credit is due. Yes Flair used "if you got the money, honey, I've got the time" in his promos back in the '80s, but that is a direct quote from a vintage Lefty Frizzell country music song, most known for Willie Nelson's cover version of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_WjFyBFNd0 Just the point being, you made it sound like its a Flair original, like his "limousine ridin', jet flyin' kiss stealin' wheelin' dealin' son of a gun" and other classic Flair-isms, when its from another source material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 But having on ONLY people who agree with your perspective on Flair in all the essentials and who ONLY back Flair as #1 actually hurts your chances of convincing me your arguments are correct. Because anyone that confident should be willing to have on those who disagree such as an EL-P. Or someone such as myself (not that I have ever done one) who believes Flair is an easy lock for GOAT 1-3 but not quite convinced he's #1 obviously. Having listened to both episodes, and knowing what the purpose of this exercise was, I agree. Especially if you are coming out right away and saying "no anti-Flair guest hosts." Because, on one hand, you are preaching to the choir, and on the other, you are using the podcast medium to prove points to people that probably would rather debate you in open dialogue as opposed to a closed channel with literally no feedback. Which isn't a big deal with most of the shows on both PTBN-PWO feeds, but even if you aren't flat out asking for debate, you really are with the way this project is setup. But instead of opening the floor up, you are pretty much like an attorney just making his closing argument with no part of the previous portions of a court case that proceeded it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conker8 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Your thought on his chops was great : I will never see a Flair match the same now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Anyone who really wants to come on to debate this can on an unscheduled part 5. Pre-requisites are listening to all the arguments and engaging specific points. There really would be no point in it otherwise. I'd bring in someone as impartial moderator. Deadline for PMs: Friday, October 9th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 This is obnoxious as fuck, really. I'd rather take one exemple of why Flair was not a smart worker in the GOAT poll thread at this point, although talking about Flair really is boring to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Have you listened to the shows???? If not, stop posting in this thread! Brainfollower above spelled out a fair rebuttal AFTER listening. You may think that discussing Flair is unnecessary. Not everyone agrees with you, but yet those individuals are just randomly posting in the thread about how much something like this was needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 This is obnoxious as fuck, really. I'd rather take one exemple of why Flair was not a smart worker in the GOAT poll thread at this point, although talking about Flair really is boring to me. Duh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 I would be happy to come and talk about some of the points I made.........but I don't feel I'm rebutting the main thesis. I think Flair is MOST likely the GOAT and def top 3 if not. But I DON'T think it's a lock that nobody can argue against and my main point about Flair using the UT thing as example, I think Flair does that more than most. I'd love to talk about why I feel Flair's WWF run failed despite the greatest promo set ever though. Be on to do that in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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