shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 The Rockers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Ok, I will take your point Bret was phoning it in on house shows. I'm not going to penalize him for that, but if that comes down to a tie breaker it would hurt him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 We do have Jumbo at minor tour shows. Our friend in Japan has been uploading them. It's probably worth noting too that MSG, Boston and Philly shows aren't "minor" in the sense of being small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Peoples criteria will be different. Their is no set way how you are going to judge it. As a fan going to a live show and seeing my guy phoning it in . It would piss me off. Thus it's why I value it so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I think saying someone phoned it in on lesser shows is a big negative on someone, negates the fact that most wrestlers we don't have those lesser shows on tape. It seems like an unfair handicap. I have no problem with someone giving extra points for working hard on lesser shows and for someone to break a tie breaking for being lazy on lesser shows, but it seems strange as an overall negative. Grimmas it does exist on tape though. Is it fair that we are missing a lot of Jack Brisco. Your argument is fluid and works both ways. It exists on tape for WWF guys. The majority of guys it does not. I have no idea what Jack Brisco, Jumbo, etc.. look like in a small town in a minor show. I mentioned Bret on house shows, but the same applies to his television matches for the most part. There are a few great ones, but there aren't a long run of solid-good *** matches or anything. We have plenty of Jumbo TV matches that aren't taking place in major arenas or on important cards. We have plenty of small show matches for just about everyone who was nominated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victory Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Just for grins I decided to watch the Martel vs Bret match from 3/19/90 on the Network from MSG to see if either guy was phoning it in. It wasn't a classic or anything but a decent match where both guys worked hard for the 20 minute duration. Is this the norm or an exception for a Bret house show match? I'm not sure as I'm more familiar with his PPV stuff. This has me intrigued now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I thought that was a better than average Bret performance on a house show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I guess I still have no clue what "length of peak" means because here http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32545-jvks-six-factor-model-for-gwe-rankings-biglav/?p=5713074 You say it is "nominally top 30 in the world." Looking here at Vader http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32545-jvks-six-factor-model-for-gwe-rankings-biglav/?p=5717553 What is the case for Vader as a "top 30 guy in the world" in 1986? 87? 88? 89? 90? 95? 96? 97? 98? 99? 00? He could MAYBE sneak into the mid 20s in some of those years, but considering how much great wrestling was happening all over the world, it would take some convincing. Vader shouldn't get a +1 for "Working Shoot Style" because he basically worked the same in UWFi as he did everywhere else. And his "Shoot style career" was 12 matches over the course of 2 years. Also, what Vader in Mexico have you seen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I think the longevity of peak question is ultimately going to have to be cleared up by literally making top 30s for every year. I don't know if I have it in my right now, but it would clear up these sorts of questions. I am happy to lose the +1 for shoot style if he doesn't deserve it. Not something I give a shit about anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 I think the longevity of peak question is ultimately going to have to be cleared up by literally making top 30s for every year. I don't know if I have it in my right now, but it would clear up these sorts of questions. I am happy to lose the +1 for shoot style if he doesn't deserve it. Not something I give a shit about anyway. Hahahaha fair enough on the shoot style bit I'd like to see your top 30s for every year. Not as a reason to put you out, but because I'm a list nerd and I think it'd be interesting to look at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 I think the longevity of peak question is ultimately going to have to be cleared up by literally making top 30s for every year. I don't know if I have it in my right now, but it would clear up these sorts of questions. I am happy to lose the +1 for shoot style if he doesn't deserve it. Not something I give a shit about anyway. Isn't there an issue though of giving workers points for a style or part of his career that you're not necessarily familiar with? Like, Vader wasn't anything to write home about in Mexico either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 My initial thought is that it would be rationed 15 from US, 10 from Japan and 5 for Rest of the world including Lucha. If it was done as just thirty "world class guys" for each year with no order, I could probably do a set of lists like that. But I'd likely need help after about 1995. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 I think the longevity of peak question is ultimately going to have to be cleared up by literally making top 30s for every year. I don't know if I have it in my right now, but it would clear up these sorts of questions. I am happy to lose the +1 for shoot style if he doesn't deserve it. Not something I give a shit about anyway. Isn't there an issue though of giving workers points for a style or part of his career that you're not necessarily familiar with? Like, Vader wasn't anything to write home about in Mexico either. If he wasn't over, he doesn't get the point for it. I read that Vader was over in Mexico. I am fine with Vader losing points because I think his score is too high anyway. And if it is too high, these sorts of things are the reason why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 My initial thought is that it would be rationed 15 from US, 10 from Japan and 5 for Rest of the world including Lucha. What makes you say this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Was mainly thinking it would make the lists easier to make. Maybe use it as a guideline and then think about who is missing and really needs to be there and who looks weakest. It would be a lot easier if four or five guys did this together though, to bounce ideas around etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Now that I've thought about it a little more, I think you should actually make the lists. You've attempted to create this scientific formula to finalize your list but any formula is going to be meaningless if the data you input is off base to begin with. You gave Vader a 14 year peak while defining peak as "Top 30 in the world Candidate." You might actually believe Vader is a top 30 in the world candidate for all 14 of those years, but I certainly don't buy it. 91-94 absolutely. If someone put Vader #1 for 91-94, I wouldn't agree with it, but I'd at least understand the argument. So yeah, since "Length of Peak" is one of your main categories and you're defining "Peak" as "Top 30 in the World" then I think you should make your lists. Otherwise you get things like Leon White in 1986 AWA getting credit for being a top 30 in the world guy. Or 1997 Vader. Or or or Edit And I'm not expecting to agree with your individual top 30s for the most part, but it would be helpful in understanding how you've arrived at the years, numbers, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 I guess I still have no clue what "length of peak" means because here http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32545-jvks-six-factor-model-for-gwe-rankings-biglav/?p=5713074 You say it is "nominally top 30 in the world." Looking here at Vader http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/32545-jvks-six-factor-model-for-gwe-rankings-biglav/?p=5717553 Vader shouldn't get a +1 for "Working Shoot Style" because he basically worked the same in UWFi as he did everywhere else. And his "Shoot style career" was 12 matches over the course of 2 years. I don't agree with this. I will give him extra credit for the fact his style fit so well in UWFI and allowed him to have a main event run there. Not a lot of U.S. workers could have pulled that off. It's not versatility in the traditional sense, but it is a type of versatility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 I get that totally Childs. I'm just not sure I would say +1 for "Working Shootstyle." I'm not sure how exactly I would word it but it would be something like "+1 for Working a Universal Style." For example, I wouldn't say "Oh, Vader, great shoot stylist." But he definitely worked a style that allowed him to fit in credibly anywhere even if he wasn't a master of the particular style. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 I get that totally Childs. I'm just not sure I would say +1 for "Working Shootstyle." I'm not sure how exactly I would word it but it would be something like "+1 for Working a Universal Style." For example, I wouldn't say "Oh, Vader, great shoot stylist." But he definitely worked a style that allowed him to fit in credibly anywhere even if he wasn't a master of the particular style. Does that make sense?Yes, agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 I want to see the rankings for Tiger Jeet Singh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danish Dynamite Posted January 30, 2016 Report Share Posted January 30, 2016 Been "away" for a while. Tried to spend some of my downtime watching as many matches with guys and territories/periods I didn't have a really strong knowledge of. This thread seems to be the best one to make a comeback in... JvK, you've taken some flag here and there for your system, but here's my two cents: This is easily the best way of approaching this entire GOAT project for me, and you've put a tremendous amount of thought and attention into it. I actually think this system is a major part of me getting new energy to complete the lists. Awesome job. I will be drawing inspiration from your concept here and work with a probably considerably simpler system and more gut feeling, but I would have loved to have the time to use BIGLAV for my entire ranking! You get all possible thumbs up from me for this! I might actually use BIGLAV when it comes to those guys I can't quite place in comparrison to each other. And I really enjoy reading your ratings of the candidates. I know you might end up "cheating" and rank someone higher or lower than this system would place them, but will you be posting a top 100 that is only based on the BIGLAV? That would be fun to see :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Cleaned up master-list. Now fully up-to-date (with some corrected adding up) and I can start adding new ratings again. Reworking some of the masterlist with some tweaks here and there: Ric Flair Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 +1 (for stamina) = 8 Intangibles 10 Great Matches 10 Length of Peak 8 (78-94) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work as travelling champion +1 ability to brawl +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, WCW, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 9 1. Steamboat, 2. Race, 3. Lawler, 4. Kerry von Erich, 5. Jumbo, 6. Martel, 7. DiBiase, 8. Dusty, 9. Windham, 10. Wahoo, 11. Bockwinkel, 12. Magnum TA, 13. Garvin, 14. Morton, 15. Taylor, 16. Luger, 17. Funk, 18. Sting, 19. Savage, 20. Tenryu Variety = 20+ opponents = 10 55 Misawa Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 6 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 8 (90-04) +1 ability to work as junior +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II) +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 4 1. Jumbo, 2. Kawada, 3. Kobashi, 4. Taue, 5. Hansen, 6. Gordy, 7. Akiyama, 8. Fuchi, 9. Steve Williams, 10. Johnny Ace, 11. Takayama, 12. Morishima Variety = 12 opponents = 6 44 Arn Anderson Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for spinebuster) = 9 Intangibles 8 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 6 (86-96) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work singles matches +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Mid-South, JCP, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Rock n Rolls, 2. Road Warriors, 3. Hart Foundation, 4. Windham, 5. Eaton, 6. Steamboat, 7. Dustin Rhodes, 8. Regal, 9. Hogan, 10. Flair, 11. Pillman, 12. Rockers Variety = 12 opponents = 6 39 Ted DiBiase Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for fistdrop / scoop powerslam) = 9 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 6 (79-88) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Million Dollar Man) +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Amarillo, WWF, GCW, Mid-South, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 7 1. JYD, 2. Freebirds, 3. Magnum TA, 4. Brad Armstrong, 5. Duggan, 6. Flair, 7. Murdoch, 8. Tenryu, 9. Jumbo, 10. Choshu / Yatsu, 11. Hogan, 12. Savage, 13. Virgil, 14. Jake, 15. Dusty / Dustin Rhodes, 16. Steiners, 17. Harley Race, 18. Terry Taylor, 19. Butch Reed, 20. Bob Sweetan Variety = 20 opponents = 8 42 Bobby Eaton Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 2 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 6 (83-92) +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, Mid-South, WCW) +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Mantell / Cobra, 2. Rock n Rolls, 3. Wrestling 2 / Magnum TA, 4. Watts / JYD, 5. Fantastics, 6. Samoan Swat Team, 7. Original Midnight Express, 8. Flair, 9. Arn Variety = 9 opponents = 4 33 Dory Funk Jr. Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 3/3 +1 (for counter wrestling) = 7 Intangibles 2 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 6 (69-79) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work as travelling champion +1 ability to carry promotion / work as company ace +1 ability to work brawls +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Puerto Rico, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 6 1. Jack Brisco, 2. Jerry Brisco, 3. Jumbo, 4. Horst Hoffman, 5. Baba, 6. Sheik, 7. Abdullah the Butcher, 8. Inoki, 9. Bruiser Brody, 10. Mike Graham, 11. Lawler, 12. Hansen / Gordy, 13. Bockwinkel / Lanza, 14. Martel / Zenk, 15. Billy Robinson, 16. Hogan / JYD, 17. Sakaguchi Variety = 17 opponents = 8 34 Terry Funk Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 9 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 8 (74-89) +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work as travelling champion +1 ability to carry promotion / work as company ace +1 ability to work technical matches +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work the hardcore style +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Chainsaw Charlie) +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Puerto Rico, Japan, WWF, ECW) Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 10 1. Jack / Jerry Brisco, 2. Race, 3. Jumbo, 4. Giant Baba, 5. The Sheik, 6. Abdullah the Butcher, 7. Bockwinkel, 8. Lawler, 9. Hansen, 10. Brody, 11. Colon, 12. Hogan, 13. JYD, 14. Martel, 15. Steamboat, 16. Flair, 17. Eddie Gilbert, 18. Cactus Jack, 19. Sabu, 20. Onita Variety = 20+ opponents = 10 53 Rick Rude Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 = 7 Intangibles 7 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 89-92 = 3 years = 2 + 1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 abiltiy to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWCW, JCP / WCW, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Rock n Rolls, 2. Wahoo McDaniel, 4. Jake Roberts 5. Ultimate Warrior, 6. Ricky Steamboat, 7. Dustin Rhodes, 8. Sting, 9. Chono Variety rating = 9 opponents = 4 30 Jack Brisco Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for selling of holds) = 9 Intangibles 2 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 71-83 = 12 years = 7 + 1 ability to work heel + 1 ability to work tags + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 ability to work as traveling champion + 3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Dory Funk Jr, 2. Baba, 3. Terry Funk, 4. Jumbo, 5. Inoki, 6. Bill Watts, 7. Harley Race, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. Paul Jones, 10. Ric Flair, 11. Roddy Piper, 12. David von Erich, 13. Bob Orton Jr (w/ Valiant / Weaver), 14. Adonis / Murdoch Variety rating = 14 opponents = 7 38 Harley Race Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 3 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 73-84 = 11 years = 7 + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 abiltiy to work as travelling champion + 1 ability to work tags + 3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Jack Brisco, 2. Terry Funk, 3. Giant Baba, 4. Jumbo, 5. Ric Flair, 6. Kerry von Erich, 7. Ted DiBiase, 8. Mil Mascaras, 9. Rick Martel, 10. Hulk Hogan, 11. Jerry Lawler, 12. David von Erich, 13. Andre Variety = 13 opponents = 6 36 Giant Baba Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 3/3 = 5 Intangibles 5 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 69-79 = 10 years = 6 + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 2 1. Dory Funk Jr., 2. Terry Funk, 3. Jack Brisco, 4. Billy Robinson, 5. Harley Race, 6. Bruno Sammartino, 7. Mil Mascaras / Dos Caras, 8. Fritz von Erich, 9. The Sheik, 10. Stan Hansen, 11. Abdullah the Butcher, 12. The Destroyer, 13. Verne Gagne, 14. Gene Kiniski, 15. Hans Schmidt Variety = 15 opponents = 7 33 The Sheik Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 for mastery of foreign object) = 4 Intangibles 6 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 + 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace + 1 ability to work technical matches + 3 ability to get over in mulitple markets (every territory, Japan, ECW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Mark Lewin, 2. Dory Funk Jr., 3. Terry Funk, 4. Abdullah the Butcher, 5. Sailor Art Thomas / Dick the Bruiser, 6. Jackie Fargo, 7. Giant Baba, 8. Jumbo, 9. Duk / Oki, 10. Robinson / Hoffman, 11. Ricky Steamboat Variety = 11 opponents = 5 22 Billy Robinson Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 3 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 70-80 = 10 years = 6 + 1 ability to work tags + 1 ability to brawl + 2 ability to get over in multiple markets (UK, AWA, Montreal, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Inoki, 2. Baba, 3. Jumbo, 4. Dory Funk Jr, 5. Terry Funk, 6. Nick Bockwinkel, 7. Verne Gagne, 8. Ray Stevens Variety = 8 opponents = 4 35 Lex Luger Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 88-91 = 3 years = 2 + 1 ability to work heel + 1 abiltiy to work gimmick matches + 1 ability to work tags + 1 ability to get over in muliple markets (Florida, JCP / WCW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Ric Flair, 2. Sting, 3. Arn / Tully, 4. Barry windham, 5. Bret Hart, 6. Ricky Steamboat, 7. Tommy Rich, 8. Great muta, 9. Pillman, 10. The Steiners, 11. Hulk Hogan Variety = 11 opponents = 5 23 Bret Hart Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 3/3 +1 (for execution) = 9 Intangibles 5 Great matches 7 Length of Peak (85-97) = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Calgary, WWF, WCW) +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 5 1. Tiger Mask, 2. British Bulldogs, 3. Demolition, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Mr. Perfect, 7. Roddy Piper, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. Owen Hart, 10. Shawn Michaels, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Benoit, 13. Islanders, 14. Backlund, 15. Steamboat, 16. 123 Kid, 17. Undertaker, 18. Diesel Variety = 18 opponents = 9 42 Tully Blanchard Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for slingshot suplex) = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 85-89 = 4 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as company ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Southwest, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Magnum TA, 2. Dusty, 3. Steamboat, 4. Luger / Windham, 5. Hart Foundation, 6. Rockers, 7. Road Warriors, 8. Rock n Roll Express, 9. Garvin, 10. Wahoo Variety = 10 opponents = 5 34 Ron Garvin Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for being a such a stiff bastard) = 7 Intangibles 2 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 82-87 = 5 years = 3 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technical matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (ICW, Canada, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Lanny Poffo, 2. Savage, 3. Flair, 4. Valentine, 5. Tully, 6. Midnight Express, 7. Rougeaus Variety = 7 opponents = 3 25 Wahoo McDaniel Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 for CHOPS) = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 74-86 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Flair, 2. Bockwinkel, 3. Ernie Ladd, 4. Johnny Valentine, 5. Greg Valentine, 6. Magnum TA, 7. Tully Variety = 7 opponents = 3 29 Ricky Steamboat Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for arm drag) = 9 Intangibles 4 Great matches 9 Length of Peak 78-94 = 16 years = 9 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, Japan, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Flair, 2. Tully, 3. The Sheik, 4. Arn / Larry, 5. Rude, 6. Slaughter / Kernodle, 7. The Funks, 8. Savage, 9. Bret, 10. Austin, 11. Luger, 12. Windham, 13. Vader, 14. Briscos, 15. Orton Jr., 16. Jake, 17. Regal, 18. Jericho, 19. Pillman, 20. Eaton Variety = 20 opponents = 8 44 Barry Windham Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for float-over suplex) = 10 Intangibles 3 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 85-93 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Flair, 2. Luger, 3. Arn, 4. Tully, 5. Pillman, 6. Sting / Steiners, 7. Murdoch, 8. Midnight Express, 8. Steamboat, 9. 2 Cold Scorpio, 10. Regal Variety = 10 opponents = 5 33 Ivan Koloff Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 69-85 = 16 years = 9 + 1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Bruno, 2. Dusty, 3. Rock n Rolls, 4. Backlund, 5. Paul Orndorff, 6. Buzz Sawyer, 7. Pedro Variety = 7 opponents = 3 29 Vader Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 7 Intangibles 6 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 86-00= 14 years = 8 +1 ability to work shoot style +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WCW, Japan, Mexico, WWF, Europe) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Hansen, 2. Inoki, 3. Wanz, 4. Sting, 5. Cactus Jack, 6. Flair, 7. Hashimoto, 8. Hase / Mutoh, 9. Dustin, 10. Owen Hart, 11. Steamboat, 12. Michaels, 13. Chono, 14. Bossman, 15. Kobashi, 16. Taue, 17. Akiyama, 18. Misawa, 19. Tamura Variety = 19 opponents = 10 43 Shawn Michaels Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 86-97= 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work face +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Rose / Sumers, 2. , Orient Express, 3. Powers of Pain, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Rick Martel, 7. Bret Hart, 8. Razor Ramon, 9. Owen Hart, 10. The Undertaker, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Mankind, 13. Chris Jericho, 14. Kurt Angle, 15. Ric Flair, 16. Randy Orton, 17. John Cena, 18. Diesel, 19. Randy Savage, 20. Bob Backlund Variety = 20 opponents = 10 40 Kurt Angle Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 0/3 = 5 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 00-05= 5 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, TNA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 1. Shane McMahon, 2. Steven Austin, 3. Chis Jericho, 4. Chris Benoit, 5. Brock Lesnar, 6. Eddie Guerrero, 7. Rey Mysterio, 8. Undertaker, 9. AJ Styles Variety = 9 opponents = 4 22 Eddie Guerrero Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 6 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 94-05 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Black Tiger) +1 ability to work NJ Juniors style +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, Mexico, WCW, WWE, Indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 8 1. Octagon, 2. El Hijo Del Santo, 3. Chris Benoit, 4. Rey Mysterio, 5. Dean Malenko, 6. Chavo Gueurrro Jr, 7. Chris Jericho, 8. DDP, 9. Kurt Angle, 10. John Cena, 11. Brock Lesnar, 11. JBL, 12. Edge, 13. Kidman, 14. Ultimo Dragon, 15. Ohtani Variety = 15 opponents = 7 42 Chris Benoit Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 = 9 Intangibles 0 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 94-07 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Wild Pegusus) +1 ability to work NJ Juniors style +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, WCW, WWE) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. 2 Cold Scorpio, 2. Sabu, 3. Eddie Guerrero, 4. El Samurai, 5. Great Sasuke, 6. Liger, 7. Angle, 8. Bret Hart, 9. Regal, 10. Chris Jericho, 11. HBK / HHH Variety = 11 opponents = 5 35 Dick Murdoch Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 75-87 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Pat O'Connor, 2. Jumbo Tsuruta, 3. Jack / Jerry Brisco, 4. Butch Reed, 4. Ted Dibiase, 5. Steve Williams, 6. Barry Windham, 7. Billy Robinson, 8. Harley Race, 9. Inoki Variety = 9 opponents = 4 33 Butch Reed Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 2 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 82-86 = 4 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, Mid-South, WCW, Florida) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Dory Funk Jr, 2. Jerry Blackwell, 3. Ivan Koloff, 4. Terry Taylor, 5. Dick Murdoch, 6. Ric Flair, 7. Jake Roberts, 8. Magnum TA, 9. Skip Young, 10. Brickhouse Brown / Master G, 11. Rock n Rolls Variety = 11 opponents = 5 23 Andre Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 3/3 = 4 Intangibles 10 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 74-83 = 9 years = 6 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to adapt himself to work the style of local promotion +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Mexico, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Killer Khan, 2. Stan Hansen, 3. Hulk Hogan, 4. Harley Race, 5. Randy Savage, 6. Nick Bockwinkel, 7. Inoki, 8. Baron Scicluna / Jerry Valiant, 9. The Sheik Variety = 9 opponents = 4 33 Bob Backlund Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 1/3 1/3 (+1 for atomic piledriver) = 6 Intangibles 1 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 77-84 = 7 years = 5 +1 abiltiy to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work shoot style Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Pat Patterson, 2. Ivan Koloff, 3. Hulk Hogan, 4. Killer Khan, 5. Ken Patera, 6. Stan Hansen Hansen, 7. Larry Zbysko, 8. Great Hussein Arab / Iron Sheik, 9. Greg Valentine, 10. Don Muraco, 11. Adrian Adonis, 12. Bob Orton Jr., 13. Inoki, 14. Bret Hart, 15. Shawn Michaels, 16. Buddy Rose, 17. Jimmy Snuka, 18. Masked Superstar, 19. Dusty Rhodes, 20. Nobuhiko Takada Variety = 20 opponents = 10 34 Hulk Hogan Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 2/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 10 Great matches 2 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, WWF, WCW, Japan, used by Vince to go national, biggest wrestling star of all-time) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Bob Backlund, 2. Andre, 3. David Schultz, 4. Nick Bockwinkel, 5. Harley Race, 6. Iron Sheik, 7. Randy Savage, 8. Ted DiBiase, 9. Bossman / Akeem, 10. Ultimate Warrior, 11. Stan Hansen, 12. Paul Orndorff, 13. The Great Muta, 14. Ric Flair, 15. Sgt. Slaughter, 16. Mr. Perfect, 17. Mr. Saito, 18. Lex Luger, 19. Terry Funk, 20. The Rock Variety = 20 opponents = 10 33 Bruno Sammartino Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 10 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, St. Louis, Canada, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles 4 1. Ivan Koloff, 2. Billy Graham, 3. Stan Hansen, 4. Larry Zbysko, 5. Ken Patera, 6. Bruiser Brody, 7. Greg Valentine, 8. Nikolai Volkoff, 9. Spiros Arion, 10. Pat Patterson, 11. Giant Baba, 12. Randy Savage, 13. Ernie Ladd Variety = 13 opponents = 6 25 Randy Savage Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 9 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 85-92 = 7 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (ICW, Memphis, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Ron Garvin, 2. Rock n Rolls, 3. Jerry Lawler, 4. Ricky Steamboat, 5. Bruno Sammartino, 6. Tito Santana, 7. Jake Roberts, 8. Ted DiBiase, 9. Hulk Hogan, 10. Bossman / Akeem, 11. Ultimate Warrior, 12. Bret Hart, 13. Ric Flair, 14. DDP, 15. Tenryu, 16. Shawn Michaels, 17. Austin Idol Variety = 17 opponents = 8 42 Steve Austin Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 10 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 92-01 = 9 years = 6 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technical matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WCW, ECW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Bret Hart, 2. The Rock, 3. Kurt Angle, 4. Mick Foley, 5. Ricky Steamboat, 6. Sting, 7. Undertaker, 8. Owen Hart, 9. Chris Benoit, 10. Chris Jericho, 11. Ric Flair / Arn Anderson, 12. Triple H Variety = 12 opponents = 6 37 Stan Hansen Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 8 Intangibles 8 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 79-93 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technically +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, WWF, WCW, AWA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Bruno Sammatino, 2. Bob Backlund, 3. Andre, 4. Giant Baba, 5. Terry Funk / Dory Funk Jr, 6. Carlos Colon, 7. Jumbo, 8. Tenryu, 9. Kawada, 10. Misawa, 11. Taue, 12. Kobashi, 13. Rick Martel, 14. Sgt. Slaughter, 15. Vader, 16. Jerry Blackwell, 17. Nick Bockwinkel, 18. Steve Williams, 19. Akiyama, 20. Curt Hennig Variety = 20 opponents = 10 51 Jumbo Tsuruta Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for hitting ever move like a finisher) = 10 Intangibles 6 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 73-92 = 19 years = 10 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to master multiple styles (AJ 70s style, AJ strong style) +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Dory Funk Jr, 2. Brisco, 3. Terry Funk, 4. Race, 5. Baba, 6. Kimura, 7. Billy Robinson, 8. Bockwinkel, 9. Slater, 10. Flair, 11. Kerry von Erich, 12. Martel, 13. Choshu / Yatsu, 14. Hansen / DiBiase, 15. Hamaguchi, 16. Williams / Gordy, 17. Tenryu, 18. Kawada, 19. Misawa, 20. Kobashi / Kikuchi. Variety = 20 opponents = 10 51 Generico Tenryu Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 84-02 = 18 years = 10 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to master multiple styles (AJ 70s style, AJ strong style) +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AJPW, NJPW, SWS, FMW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. Ted DiBiase / Stan Hansen, 2. Jumbo, 3. Choshu / Yatsu, 4. Ricky Steamboat, 5. Road Warriors, 6. Tiger Mask II (Misawa), 7. George Takano, 8. Shiro Koshinaka, 9. Ric Flair, 10. Fujinami, 11. Hashimoto, 12. Chono, 13. Naoki Sano, 14. Fujiwara, 15. Onita, 16. Kobashi, 17. Kengo Kimura / Masashi Aoyagi, 18. Yoji Anjoh, 19. Nobuhiko Takada, 20. Tarzan Goto Variety = 20 opponents = 10 51 Yoshiaki Yatsu Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 2 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 84-90 = 6 years = 4 +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work brawls +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, WCCW, AJPW, SWS) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Jumbo, 2. Kawada 3. Hara, 4. DiBiase / Hansen, 5. Furnas / Kroffat, 6. Takada 7. Tatsumi Fujinami 8. Akira Maeda 9. Kengo Kimura, 10. Fujiwara, 11. Mutoh, 12. Inoki, 13. Fuyuki, 14. Tenryu Variety = 14 opponents = 6 33 Nick Bockwinkel Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for "most logical wrestler of all time") = 9 Intangibles 8 Great matches 8 Length of Peak 74-86 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work brawls +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, AWA, Memphis, Japan, Mid-South, Hawaii) Ability to work different styles / roles = 8 1. Verne Gagne, 2. Billy Robinson, 3. Rick Martel, 4. Hulk Hogan, 5. Jumbo Tsuruta, 6. Jerry Lawler, 7. Curt Hennig, 8. Wahoo McDaniel, 9. Stan Hansen, 10. Larry Zbyszko, 11. Mad Dog Vachon, 12. The Fabulous Ones, 13. Col. De Beers, 14. Andre, 15. Ric Flair, 16. Dory Funk Jr / Terry Funk, 17. Red Bastien, 18. Ernie Ladd, 19. Randy Savage, 20. Jim Brunzell / Greg Gagne Variety = 20 opponents = 10 50 ------- Note: currently 39 workers rated. 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JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Here's another way of presenting that info: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 I think Austin deserves more than a 3 in great matches. His 2001 run alone should get him a 6. I don't know how much you have seen of him, but I would be interested in seeing you rank Daniel Bryan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 I noticed this morning that I'd made a mistake on Austin's Ability to work Different Roles rating which should be 7 not 5. That means he's on 37 not 35. Will have a think about his Great Matches. In my mind that 2001 stuff is more memorable than great. I think I reviewed the Benoit and Angle ones in recent memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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