Reactions to the List: 50-26

[Jetlag]

Shawn-Cena-Santo is a hell of a triple. I'm a little surprised I was the only one to lift him all the way to the top. He has that "mystique".

 

I didn't have Hart on my list at all. Carl Greco was my No 100, and Hart ain't no Carl Greco. Not gonna whinge about Hart though. People like who they like.

 

With Santo, Satanico, Dandy, Fujiwara and Murdoch 5 out of my Top 10 are gone.

 

EDIT: I just noticed the average vote for Santo is 22. Damn!

[TRMD]

I completely regret pussin' out and not making a list now. Would have given Austin a #1 vote and pushed him even further up the list. Also would've pushed Rose way up as my possible 2.

[goodhelmet]

I completely regret pussin' out and not making a list now. Would have given Austin a #1 vote and pushed him even further up the list. Also would've pushed Rose way up as my possible 2.

 

It's cool that you would place him number one but what is more interesting is you making the case he is a #1 candidate.

[Loss]

 

What I think is a great example of an unapologetically Joshi match is Yoshiko Tamura vs Toshie Uematsu from GAEA in 1997. It's a phenomenal match, and there is nothing at all about it that feels like an outlier to the popular Toyota-led style of the time, but it also feels a bit more grounded. I haven't talked about that much in the context of GWE because it really is a one-off match and neither wrestler has much of a case outside of it.

 

Back in the early 00's, people following NEO would argue that Yoshiko Tamura was one of the best active worker. I wonder what I'd think of this if I revisited that dark period of joshi. I loved The Bloody too. Greatest worker no one knows about (that being said, I have no idea what I'd think about her today).

 

 

She, Azumi Hyuga and Arisa Nakajima are the 2000s wrestlers I want to really watch and understand the most.

[Loss]

Santo above Shawn and Cena. This list couldn't be more mainstream if Maroon 5 was talking about it on a special episode of Oprah that takes place in a Wal-Mart where everyone is eating McDonald's.

[benjaminkicks]

Man, I love Austin, but I really don't see a case for him being this high.

[stomperspc]

Late to the party on this Buddy Rose discussion but just caught up on the list this morning. I think the hand wringing over the lack of support for Buddy Rose is a bit much when you look at how he stacked up to others on the list. Consider this selection (overall ranking, name, average vote, # of votes):

 

#56 Jim Breaks 36.28 67

#52 Akira Hokuto 37.45 76

#40 Fujiwara 32.64 81

#37 Satanico 29.73 83

#36 Buddy Rose 34.66 92

#35 El Dandy 34.70 96

#29 El Hijo del Santo 22.52 95

 

Satanico and Fujiwara ended up behind Rose despite having a clear advantage in terms of average vote (a significant advantage in Satanico’s case). Fujiwara and Satanico were on 9 and 11 fewer ballots, respectively, than Rose and had higher average votes. The numbers would indicate that they were hurt more by a lack of awareness/support than Rose was. Breaks and Hokuto were on significantly fewer ballots than Rose while receiving an average vote in the same ballpark as he received. Dandy basically ended up in the same position as Rose in terms of support & overall placement.

 

One way to gauge whether a wrestler was hurt by lack of awareness is to see how the average vote correlates to the actual finish. In theory, an excellent wrestler who finished further back than he or she should have because the wrestler was left off of ballots by people unfamiliar with them should have an average ranking that greatly outpaces their actually ranking. In other words, those that voted for the wrestler would have ranked the wrestler very highly but the wrestler was pulled back by a lack of votes (since the rankings are done a cumulative point basis and not an average basis).

 

Rose finished about 1.5 spots behind his average ranking. Santo finished 6.5 behind, Satanico 7 behind, Fujiwara 7.5 behind, Hokuta 14.5 behind, and Breaks 20 behind. Based on those numbers, I would argue that those wrestlers suffered far more from lack of general awareness then Rose did and would say that Rose’s placement is fair. The average voter that voted for Rose saw him as roughly the 34-35^th best wrestler ever. He finished 36^th.

 

Anyway, just wanted to point out that I think Rose’s landing spot was fair based on the numbers. There are other wrestlers all around Rose who appear to be bigger victims from the lack of votes in a counting poll than Rose was. On that note, I do think it would be interesting at the end if Grimmas posted the top 100 based on average vote (assuming he has that handy) just for the sake of comparison. That will make the wrestlers that benefited from higher visibility and those that were hurt by a lack of visibility easy to see.

[Ricky Jackson]

Outside of the hardest of the hardcores, Bret has been pushed as one the greatest wrestlers ever for at least 20 years, so even at a place like PWO, I don't think it's that surprising that he's going to end up where he does.

 

Does his career match up to a lot of the others in the top 100 based solely on in-ring, consistency, and longevity? No it doesn't, but it seems like only a relatively small percentage of voters are basing their lists entirely on those criteria

[GOTNW]

I have a hard time figuring who'll come next at this point. Eaton has to drop soon. How high can Regal get?

 

[El-P]

She, Azumi Hyuga and Arisa Nakajima are the 2000s wrestlers I want to really watch and understand the most.

 

Ran Yu-Yu also was thought highly of at this point. I have no idea, I know she was indeed really good in the late 90's already. She was "the other Tomoko" of the JWP young fab fours.

[JDerbyshire]

Finally activated!

 

And I couldn't be more pleased to have my introduction be as the high voter on John Cena! (sorry for stealing your thunder there, JimmyRedman) I genuinely didn't think I would be the high voter on anyone but my #1 - pleasantly surprised it's on Cena who is someone I have come around with so much over the past 7-8 years.

 

One of my least favourite things about modern WWE wrestling style is the 'fluidity' of matches; it's my biggest issue with someone like Randy Orton. One of the biggest detractors against Cena's wrestling ability is his 'clunkiness' - but for me its an added bonus. I love that sometimes he messes up hitting moves cleanly or takes awkward looking bumps.

 

I think he's far and away the most giving ace in WWE history - whether its in entire programs or one off matches. Not a knock on Hogan or Austin, but they would never do the Brock SummerSlam match, they'd never give guys like Cesaro, Owens & Zayn fresh out of NXT as much as Cena gave.

 

Another knock on him is he's the ace during an overall down period for the company, but for that entire time, he's pretty much done laps on everyone else in the company as far as merch & selling out houses goes. He'd have been right there alongside Rock & Austin the Attitude Era - and right there alongside Hogan in the 80s. I think he has the range of character to adapt, even if he does not get to show it week to week, that would have fit into any of those eras. He's also stayed on top longer than those guys, and has dealt with fan backlash impeccably. A John Cena PPV match is always an event, because everyone in that arena is always invested whether it is to boo or to cheer.

 

And although it wasn't in my criteria for GWE, the fact that he seems like a genuinely good dude, does loads for charities & disadvantaged children, is an excellent public speaker and generally comes across as a great role model to fans is a big bonus to me.

[Bierschwale]

Eaton as the Norm Peterson of the list makes perfect sense. Everybody knows him, knows that he was great, the more voters that you add the higher that he'll finish and it's just that simple.

[Matt D]

Finally activated!

 

Welcome aboard. Thanks for coming along and explaining your pick.

[RIPPA]

I am blaming Matt for Michaels being ahead of Dustin and you can't tell me otherwise

[TRMD]

 

I completely regret pussin' out and not making a list now. Would have given Austin a #1 vote and pushed him even further up the list. Also would've pushed Rose way up as my possible 2.

 

It's cool that you would place him number one but what is more interesting is you making the case he is a #1 candidate.

 

 

I didn't vote so I don't want to stuff up the thread, but I'll just say that he checks every single box I look for when determining a great wrestler. He checks them and then some. He's basically a 10 across my criteria board.

[funkdoc]

 

Jmare, that's a good point. i guess i shouldn't have said "anonymous", more like "non-PWO regulars".

 

people bring up AJ Styles in the top 40 but i think when people look at this list even a couple years from now, the poor ranking of the women will be far and away the most embarrassing part. Brock in the top 50 will also be up there - guys like Hogan & Dusty are more understandable when you realize not everyone was voting just on in-ring work, but Brock doesn't have anywhere near their track record as a draw.

 

i've been pleasantly surprised with the list aside from those issues, mind you!

 

I doubt that, Joshi is a pretty dead style and its prime is even further in the rear view mirror, I can't imagine there will be some sort of Joshi review, unless its something like LLPW which wasn't beaten to death by guys in the 90.

 

 

you're missing on a couple larger points here:

 

1. WWE taking women's wrestling seriously. if they stick with it, you're going to see more people take an interest in what came before it. it's also going to produce a generation of new female hardcore fans.

 

2. feminism is eventually going to become a real factor in our circle, like it's already doing with basically every other nerd fandom. there will be re-evaluations of the joshi style and the circumstances that developed it, and there will be more people refusing to rank sexual predators on principle. knowing how wrestling is, it'll probably be like 5 years from now...but it *will* happen eventually.

[El-P]

Not surprised Eaton is dropping now, although I agree Morton should be above him (Eaton was one spot behind him on my list, at #33), as the mid-90's work of Eaton is nothing special anymore. I like the Blue Bloods, but Eaton never really geled with Regal. He was also part of that godawful tag team with Steve Keirn, whereas Morton was carrying SMW on his back with really good matches and promos. Maybe the early part of Eaton's career, teaming with Koko in Memphis, can gie him the edge though. No question Eaton is one of the greatest tag wrestler ever. His solo stint in WCW too is a bit underrated I'd say.

[El-P]

1. WWE taking women's wrestling seriously. if they stick with it, you're going to see more people take an interest in what came before it. it's also going to produce a generation of new female hardcore fans.

 

2. feminism is eventually going to become a real factor in our circle, like it's already doing with basically every other nerd fandom. there will be re-evaluations of the joshi style and the circumstances that developed it, and there will be more people refusing to rank sexual predators on principle. knowing how wrestling is, it'll probably be like 5 years from now...but it *will* happen eventually.

 

Yep. All good news.

[goc]

Santo above Shawn and Cena. This list couldn't be more mainstream if Maroon 5 was talking about it on a special episode of Oprah that takes place in a Wal-Mart where everyone is eating McDonald's.

[JDerbyshire]

As its my first chance, I'll just add a big thank you to Grimmas (and anyone else involved in the running of this project) - I am a huge lists nerd and was all over it the moment I heard about it. I won't profess to being even 10% as knowledgeable or well-read in wrestling as the vast majority of you on here. My list is one of those that slants more mainstream American (with a healthy nod given towards Puroresu and Joshi).

 

However I understand and admire the tone and heated debates that have arisen so far as I am a huge films fan and would compare this to something like Sight and Sound, I too would be aghast if something I took very seriously and appreicated as an art form was infilrtrated by some sappy, insincere mainstream 90s nostalgia flick like Forrest Gump (Shawn Michaels...my #5 ) or some overblown, nonsensical, all-action blockbuster made someone's top 100 (Kurt Angle my #10 ... I feel so dirty comparing one of my favourites, Kurt to a Michael Bay movie. Sorry Kurt, still love you!!)

[Childs]

Eaton is feeling really over rated at this point especially when you consider how long ago his tag partners dropped. I can't really see an argument for him over Santo.

 

Well, I can't either, and I'm sure his average vote will be lower than Santito's. But I really love Bobby Eaton. He was almost the perfect offensive wrestler, maybe the greatest tag wrestler of all time and a top-shelf in-ring heel. His skills were elite and his body of work fell behind only the best of the best. I'm pleased to see him climb so high and to me, he's an example of a "mainstream" choice that actually isn't that mainstream.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

To me, Austin is like Arn Anderson in that he always delivered a good to very good -- and occasionally great -- match, even in his latter years w/ the knee problems. What vaults him above Arn and other consistently good worker types is the fact that he played a leading role in ushering the biggest wrestling boom ever known. That HAS to count for something

[Bierschwale]

His average was about #48. Bobby's just a guy without true negatives. Arn is the most arch version of that.

[JKWebb]

I don't mean to sound smart or start an argument by saying this, but why is it unacceptable to believe that a good proportion of the greatest wrestlers ever are 'mainstream' guys?

 

Is it not plausible that many great wrestlers became mainstream guys because they were great wrestlers? Surely most wrestlers who are/were great get noticed, gain higher profiles and therefore become 'mainstream'.

I've had this thought as well...

[Childs]

I see Eaton dropped as I was posting and his average vote was indeed nowhere near as impressive as Santito's.