Reactions to the List: 25-11

[DR Ackermann]

My top 10 has been decimated the last couple of days.

 

1. ????????????

2. Genichiro Tenryu

3. Nick Bockwinkel

4. Negro Casas

5. Tatsumi Fujinami

6. ????????????

7. ????????????

8. Yoshiaki Fujiwara

9. El Satanico

10. Steve Grey

[DR Ackermann]

 

 

Jumobo out of the top 10?!?! Damn you, Dylan! Damn you!

 

Just kidding. It's disappointing to see Jumbo out of the top 10, but I am glad he finished above Tenryu. The criticisms lobbed at Jumbo about being disinterested and overly stoic are my criticisms of Tenryu.

That's just not the case though. Tenryu got more and more creative with his spots and counter spots. He would go out of his way to make mid carders and de facto jobbers look as good as possible. For the record, Tenryu was my number 2 and i was the low vote on Jumbo at 82.

 

 

Admittedly, later career Tenryu is a bit of a blind spot for me. It's just been weird hearing the criticisms lobbed at Jumbo during this process and thinking, "That's EXACTLY how I feel about Tenryu."

 

I had Jumbo 4th and Tenryu 37th.

 

 

I would agree that Tenryu is much less charismatic and seems oddly apathetic at times in his first decade or so.

[Childs]

The 20 people who didn't vote for Tenryu are horrible.

 

I'm kidding ... maybe.

[Death From Above]

You've all broken my heart.

[MoS]

I think Liger will fall next. Shame, because he was comfortably in my top 10.

[Childs]

 

 

My only issue is I guess I haven't seen a match where he's the man so to speak. If anyone can point me to a match where he's carrying a lesser opponent to a great match I may revise my view on him.

He's cleary leading the match vs. Nagata and vs. Rikioh in 2005/6. Both are great matches though I can't really think of huge Taue carry jobs. But then again I'm not sure I can do the same for Kobashi.

 

 

Carry jobs are vastly overrated. If you're surrounded by great wrestlers, and your job is to go out and have great matches and you hold up your end for 15 years, you're fucking great. Period.

[El-P]

I would agree that Tenryu is much less charismatic and seems oddly apathetic at times in his first decade or so.

 

I wouldn't agree, but I think people are so much more used to grumpy Tenryu that the younger version doesn't connect the same. To me it's former sumo wrestler syndrome, he's more naturally stoic because of this. But since I fucking love former sumo wrestlers, it's not an issue for me.

[Childs]

 

Lawler will be at #11 because he never worked All Japan.

Shouldn't make the top 10 because he just wasn't that good.

 

 

He's better than every Dragon Gate wrestler combined, ever.

[victory]

Originally coming into this project I thought I would have both Bock and Lawler in the top ten for sure. After reviewing both of them Bock stayed and Lawler dropped for me. I still have no problem with Lawler making it top ten though as I can see the argument for it. Maybe I just burnt myself out on him and that's why he dropped. That happened to a few guys for me. A new list 6 months from now he might be back in.

[Childs]

 

I totally agree with Dylan about the Lucha stuff but it doesn't surprise me as Lucha even with the most ardent of fans like myself and other WON HOF voters can't come to a consensus to get guys elected, I totally figured that in this project there would be a lot of disconnect among the Lucha "novices" or people that just didn't give a shit.

 

Both you and Dylan have touched upon one of the three things that have "irked" me about the results (although a more precise and honest term is disappointment due to my personal viewpoints).

 

When El Hijo del Santo placed where he did, I suspected that Casas was going to drop soon after. Setting aside Rey Mysterio Jr. and Eddie Guerrero (whose roots are definitely lucha but whose resumes go beyond just their work in Mexico), no wrestler whose case is based on their career in Mexico made the top twenty. And, that's actually a plausible result. Lucha is a style that developed differently from the U.S style, being more theatrical and culturally based. Someone who's used to the U.S style or Japan heavyweights, watching lucha is a definite change from what they are used to. Not everybody will like it, and that's fine. After all, I'd say the majority of us watch wrestling for the entertainment, fun and emotional roller coaster it can provide, so trying to watch something that feels like chore makes one question why even bother with it.

 

But in the abstract, and this goes in line with what Dylan was mentioning, it's hard to explain the results of the list to someone in general terms and not make it sound weird. A style that has had an established national company for more than 80 years, with the history and influence it has had across all of Latin America, has not produced a top twenty wrestler in all that time. Yet, three men who were direct contemporaries in Japan, who constantly wrestled with and against each other, are in the top twelve. And in the abstract it seems off, but if I'm being honest, it's a valid and explainable result when you dig into the context. Lucha is a style with it's pitfalls for entry if you are coming into it cold and the results reflect this.

 

Ultimately, this list is a guide. For those that have no idea about the different styles, regions or wrestlers that are on it, the list represents an opportunity to maybe seek out something they had no idea was out there. For those that weren't able to get to certain styles, regions or wrestlers in their viewing, or who weren't able to probe deeply enough to their liking in order to form a personal opinion they were comfortable with (full disclosure, I fall into this group), the list represents a suggestion of maybe where to look at next. And for those who gave it a try and formed an opinion (either that they liked or didn't like what they were viewing), kudos for daring to go beyond your usual comfort zone and giving something else a try. Regardless of what your thoughts were, your opinion is part of the list and just as valid. Hopefully you'll continue giving other styles, regions and/or wrestlers a fair shot and maybe you'll find something new to you that speaks to you as well as what you are used to.

 

Hopefully the last reveals will be just as fun as the process so far.

 

 

Boricua is the best statesman. Can we elect him to something? Jimmy could be his filthy-tongued vp.

[Death From Above]

Tenryu is the first of my top 5 to go -

 

Kawada, Hansen, Misawa, Liger, Tenryu, Flair, Bockwinkel, Funk, Kobashi and Akiyama.

 

Bock was easily the biggest discovery for me during this whole process.

 

Bockwinkel is easily the biggest climber for me in the last year, via discussions and match recommendations. I wasn't close to a high voter on him, nor should I be with relatively limited AWA knowledge to some, but I feel really comfortable with the internet's newfound appreciation of him.

 

I think two of the great things (among others) that have come out of this forum for me are a better appreciation of Bockwinkel, and the Puerto Rico thread which literally has stuff in it I've never seen anywhere else in 18 years on wrestling boards.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Flair is assuming he'll finish No. 1 on the PWO GWE list and has apparently already begun celebrating.

 

http://deadspin.com/ric-flair-had-a-rough-morning-at-logan-airport-1773402986?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

[cubbymark]

I would have thought he'd be elbow dropping his jacket.

[shoe]

The Ivan match with Billy Graham from Mystery Titans Theater was legitimately good. The slow pace accentuated the explosion of the Polish hammer while thy maintained a really great struggle over the holds as Graham sold like a mother and Putski ground his stuff in. It felt legitimate from inside the wrestling bubble were you can Irish whip people.

 

I'm starting to think Fuji was actually really good at his job. I'm interested in looking back at his career at some point.

 

 

 

 

How awesome is that in a thread of the top 25-11 workers of all time, we're talking about Putski, Strongbow and Mr. Fuji?

When Parv and I interviewed Tito Santana , Tito said he'd go to Fuji for advice a lot on matches. You could literally hear Parv's head spin around.

[InYourCase]

Can goc shut up now that Lawler is in the top ten and both Tenryu and Fujinami aren't?

[shoe]

 

Maybe the Ass Splitters, but that may require me to crawl back underground. I'm sorry, but Taue you're old hat. If somebody can pull a revisionist twist on Chief Jay Stringbow you'll step up and get my attention.

On Titans we've discovered that the Strongbow brothers were actually a fairly decent tag team, at least against Saito and Fuji. That's kinda sorta a revisionist opinion of Jay.

 

And the world definitely needs more talk about Mr. Fuji

To be fair Kelly we've discovered that they were cape able at selling, so you could get heat on them and plug them into a formula.

[The Man in Blak]

 

The Ivan match with Billy Graham from Mystery Titans Theater was legitimately good. The slow pace accentuated the explosion of the Polish hammer while thy maintained a really great struggle over the holds as Graham sold like a mother and Putski ground his stuff in. It felt legitimate from inside the wrestling bubble were you can Irish whip people.

 

I'm starting to think Fuji was actually really good at his job. I'm interested in looking back at his career at some point.

 

 

 

 

How awesome is that in a thread of the top 25-11 workers of all time, we're talking about Putski, Strongbow and Mr. Fuji?

When Parv and I interviewed Tito Santana , Tito said he'd go to Fuji for advice a lot on matches. You could literally hear Parv's head spin around.

 

 

How much of Strongbow and Fuji's prime do we have on tape? By the time we get to their 70s run in the WWWF, Strongbow was already over 40 years old and Fuji wasn't far behind him.

[shoe]

Not sure, but in 81 or 82 they are having good tags against each other. Saito was the engine. Fuji played his part. The Strongbows sold.

[The Thread Killer]

If I remember the stats shown for the ballots/average of the Top 10, the #9 guy had the lowest number of ballots, but the highest average ranking: I'm thinking that could be Lawler.

 

I'd like to see Jumbo or Kobashi outside of the Top 10, but it's probably going to end up being someone like Liger.

 

Just curious...why did you want to see Jumbo or Kobashi outside the Top 10?

[Ricky Jackson]

Age isn't really the issue with WWWF guys like Strongbow and Fuji, everyone was old, and there is a decent amount of them on tape considering the time frame. If you can get past the barrier of "boring old wrestling" you'll find a lot of heated matches, sometimes attaining greatness like Strongbow vs Valentine in 79, and plenty of entertainment from Fuji in tags. There is a lot of crap though. I don't know how enjoyable it is if you're not fully immersed in the universe and love the characters and the time period

[goc]

Can goc shut up now that Lawler is in the top ten and both Tenryu and Fujinami aren't?

I had Fujinami in my own top 10, I'd have rather seen more All Japan dudes fall.

[El Boricua]

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic post, but I see that there are some users viewing this thread who are not yet activated (their names appear in yellow font). If you are one of them and want your account activated, don't forget to follow the instructions in the Announcement sub-forum in order to get your account validated.

[Matt D]

 

 

I'd like the Savage as #1 people to explain themselves. For all the focus on Bret, that's pretty nutty in itself, is it not?

Kelly did an hour podcast making Savage's case.

 

 

Circling back to Savage who I gave a number one vote to because he's awesome from pretty much every perspective I care about as a professional wrestler.

 

To Whit:

From the holistic view, Randy's skill set is virtually immense. Randy could bump like he was shot in the face and hit the mat with a force that if you blinked, BAM he's already on the canvas. Randy could limb sell and sell generalized damage to build sympathy with ease (knee injury during the Flair World Title WWF series being the most obvious example). Randy's strikes were varied and on point: jabs, elbows, the bend the guy over and kick him in the chest... all looked solid and were great in control segments and in the rally. He could work heat and was awesome underneath. His aerial work was groundbreaking and his top rope elbow is an iconic finish. He had unique psychology especially as a heel where he would use the whole ring as a weapon and would utilize spacing in a way no one else did or does. Did anyone ever spend more time going in and out of the ring than Savage? Maybe, I didn't have a stopwatch on him.

 

From the great matches sense, Randy has great matches with a variety of guys with a variety of different skill sets (Warrior, Hogan, Flair, Steamboat, Tito, Lawler etc etc). While some might look at his planning methodology as a crutch, I cannot bring myself to care. Results oriented business allows for all sorts of different ways of getting to the end goal. He's also underrated as a tag guy with his team with Lanny actually being effective foils for the Rock 'n' Rolls.

 

From the cultural perspective, Randy Savage is probably in the top 5 of cross over stars all times. Who doesn't know the voice, the outfit, the snap into it? Who hasn't done the Savage elbow off a diving board into the pool? And while that 'doesn't count' it reflects his charisma and uniqueness which do. Randy Savage is wrestling to me and to a great many people. He's loud and unique and colorful and awesome.

 

And he's awesome. Just so goddamn awesome.

 

As with everyone else who's defended a relatively non-traditional #1 choice, thanks for taking the time to do so. I like the spacing point especially. From listening to the podcasts and from doing one myself, Randy's someone that I think everyone had something of a hard time defending.

[Grimmas]

With everything being said Bryan, Flair, Funk, Hansen, Kawada, Kobashi, Lawer, Liger, Misawa, & Mysterio is a hell of a top ten. Buddy, Bret and Casas were the only ones I missed and really only Casas, I thought, had a chance. Can't discount that a percentage of wrestling fans just won't do lucha.

[goc]

Grimmas just spoiled the order. Glad that Lawler will rank ahead of Misawa.