Separate But Equal?: The ultimate goal of Feminism in wrestling

[WingedEagle]

 

 

I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports.

 

 

I don't think I buy that.

 

This is a simulated fight. I don't think anybody is pushing for intergender fights in UFC.

 

 

This is a pretend fight that I believe is art. Why can't women fight men the same way Nancy and Frank Sinatra sing a duet?

 

 

If they can get you to suspend your disbelief they absolutely should be able to. If they can't present it in a fashion you take it at all seriously its time to move on to something you'll buy.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports.

 

 

I don't think I buy that.

 

This is a simulated fight. I don't think anybody is pushing for intergender fights in UFC.

 

 

This is a pretend fight that I believe is art. Why can't women fight men the same way Nancy and Frank Sinatra sing a duet?

 

Really depends on the presentation. No issues with it in Lucha Underground. A lot of others times I see it it's exploitative and tries to appeal on men on women violence.

[Loss]

That's my big issue. I wouldn't have a problem with it in a world without domestic violence.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

 

I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports.

 

 

I don't think I buy that.

 

This is a simulated fight. I don't think anybody is pushing for intergender fights in UFC.

 

 

This is a pretend fight that I believe is art. Why can't women fight men the same way Nancy and Frank Sinatra sing a duet?

 

Really depends on the presentation. No issues with it in Lucha Underground. A lot of others times I see it it's exploitative and tries to appeal on men on women violence.

 

 

I think the reason you don't see a whole lot of intergender violence in movies, wrestling or other ventures (where the protagonist doesn't end up receiving quite the comeuppance) is because people don't find it entertaining and won't spend their time or money on it. If they did, you'd see it in spades.

[Matt D]

 

 

I'd argue the only truly feminist way of promoting wrestling would be to have the women compete with men in serious matches. Feminists want to have more women doing all these things that have been traditionally tied to men like leadership roles and what have you, so it just seems like a logical progression of that to get rid of the sex gap entirely in sports.

 

 

I don't think I buy that.

 

This is a simulated fight. I don't think anybody is pushing for intergender fights in UFC.

 

 

This is a pretend fight that I believe is art. Why can't women fight men the same way Nancy and Frank Sinatra sing a duet?

 

Wrestling is ultimately about "presentation over time." The fans need to be conditioned in a certain way to accept what they are seeing as plausible within the confines of the environment created. In this a lack of "reality" isn't a dealbreaker, but I think "reality" makes it easier for fans to accept things. That's just a starting point though. It's about consistency in conditioning (which is really about announcing, selling, and wins and losses).

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd have given anything to see Savage drop the elbow on Sapphire. Anything.

[funkdoc]

yea Stacey, you'd dig Lucha Underground i think. it's outright presented as a fantasy world where magic superpowers are a thing, so that's made it a lot easier for your typical fan to buy into the intergender stuff. even then, though, there was a huge backlash against Sexy Star winning the title IIRC.

 

once again i'm busy all day and can't really contribute here, so i won't rush out a half-assed post this time. just one thing: i strongly feel that men should not call themselves feminists, because it's not our struggle and we can never fully understand it. that's some co-opting on our part imo

[El-P]

yea Stacey, you'd dig Lucha Underground i think. it's outright presented as a fantasy world where magic superpowers are a thing, so that's made it a lot easier for your typical fan to buy into the intergender stuff. even then, though, there was a huge backlash against Sexy Star winning the title IIRC.

 

SPOILER MOFO !!!

 

(ok, I'm not actually mad, but still, spoilers are welcome. Plus, Sexy Star is just not a very good worker. Ivelisse winning it would be awesome though !)

 

And yeah, LU is pretty much a live action comic and presented as such, they do the best work possible with intergender matches.

[Migs]

Lots to chew on. Trying to work through some thoughts here, so this is a bit of a mess, but here goes:

 

I do think feminism in wrestling will always struggle a bit in a world where the primary fanbase is overwhelmingly straight males. But I don't think it's about misogyny; I think it's about the importance of aesthetics in the way we respond to wrestlers. And I think because of it, we won't see a proper feminist perspective in wrestling until the crowd is more gender balanced than it currently is.

 

Think about the first wrestlers you liked as a kid - what did you like about them? When I consider this, it always comes back to their aesthetic. Mid-80s era Randy Savage was my favorite wrestler in part because of his aesthetic - the colors, the robes, the sunglasses... the whole package. And it was about that combined with how he wrestled too, of course. The energy, the athleticism - Savage's aesthetic worked for me, and it's why I can watch even a bad Savage match and get joy out of it. (For reference, I also was/am a huge fan of the Rockers, the Hart Foundation, the Midnight Express - I clearly liked a specific aesthetic in my wrestlers).

 

I think when straight males watch female wrestling, it's hard to unwrap the attraction to aesthetics from something at least partially sexual. If I really enjoy a female wrestler - I think I'm generally attracted to her (in the way that I'm attracted to any woman who dresses well and has an awesome character, I guess). This isn't that different from the way we view male wrestlers, but it does manifest itself differently.

 

This is not to say that men will only cheer for or watch female wrestling featuring women they find sexually attractive, or that men are incapable of enjoying female wrestling for its value outside of that. I think a good portion of the crowd, at this point, views women in such a way that we're beyond the "We want puppies" era, and that's an awesome move forward. Crowds are engaging with the female wrestlers as whole people, defined not just by their looks, to a greater extent.

 

But it does mean that if wrestling maintains it's straight male perspective on the world, women are always going to be off to the side slightly. If a good portion of the crowd is going to sexualize them in a way that they do not do with their male counterparts, it will fundamentally keep them off to the side, as a different part of the show from male wrestlers.

 

Now, maybe we're seeing a sea change, and the way WWE is making strides in presenting women means more lifelong female fans, a balance in the crowds, and that will push the "crowd" perspective into something that's more equal and feminist as a whole.

[El-P]

This is not to say that men will only cheer for or watch female wrestling featuring women they find sexually attractive, or that men are incapable of enjoying female wrestling for its value outside of that.

 

About this, I must say I was totally offended by someone who said during the GWE process that basically people voting for joshi workers did it because of creepy reasons. Well, yes, part of Takako Inoue or Cuty Suzuki's appeal and character was sex-appeal. It actually played into the way they worked too (either vulnerable babyfaces or heelish bitch). But I don't think Aja Kong (the highest woman in the Top 100 BTW), Bull Nakano, Dynamite Kansai, Shinobu Kandori or Kyoko Inoue get points for being hotties.

 

Now, pro-wrestling is about selling a procuct. And sex sells. It's nothing new. And we're getting back to the "blowjob" babyface in US territorial wrestling and the fact they drew tons of female fans. What's the difference between Stan Lane and Trish Stratus ? Apart from the fact Lane fucked a thousand of his fans while Stratus probably didn't, I'm speaking strictly in term of promotional tactics. (and really, if Stratus had fuck a thousand male fans, I'd have no issue with that either, to be perfectly clear)

[Loss]

Apologies if this has been pointed out already, but even men are exploited in wrestling in a way that's at odds with feminism. I feel like most feminists would have a field day with wrestlers as independent contractors as a way to get around providing health insurance and a pension. They aren't unionized, either.

 

There's also taking steroids so they look good in underwear and their bodies are more marketable for action figures, not to mention the laughable idea that they have to be "credible", especially in a company like the WWF that has always had a very tongue-in-cheek presentation anyway. Feminism is generally concerned with exploitation of all people, not just women. Wrestlers are selling sex and violence.

 

I've seen lots of feminist critique of the jokes about Chris Christie's weight, so it seems like this would be of interest. And from my understanding (and I fully admit that I'm a novice who just reads a lot of stuff online), feminism is just as much about the exploration of masculinity as it is a political movement to support women.

[Migs]

 

This is not to say that men will only cheer for or watch female wrestling featuring women they find sexually attractive, or that men are incapable of enjoying female wrestling for its value outside of that.

 

About this, I must say I was totally offended by someone who said during the GWE process that basically people voting for joshi workers did it because of creepy reasons. Well, yes, part of Takako Inoue or Cuty Suzuki's appeal and character was sex-appeal. It actually played into the way they worked too (either vulnerable babyfaces or heelish bitch). But I don't think Aja Kong (the highest woman in the Top 100 BTW), Bull Nakano, Dynamite Kansai, Shinobu Kandori or Kyoko Inoue get points for being hotties.

 

Now, pro-wrestling is about selling a procuct. And sex sells. It's nothing new. And we're getting back to the "blowjob" babyface in US territorial wrestling and the fact they drew tons of female fans. What's the difference between Stan Lane and Trish Stratus ? Apart from the fact Lane fucked a thousand of his fans while Stratus probably didn't, I'm speaking strictly in term of promotional tactics. (and really, if Stratus had fuck a thousand male fans, I'd have no issue with that either, to be perfectly clear)

 

 

I don't think there's a difference, really. There are some differences in presentation, usually, because the blowjob babyface needs to be somewhat "credible" to the male fans as well, while traditionally promoters were not considering the credibility of the female talent (because the women were surely just there to see the blowjob babyface, in their minds). As a result, Ricky Morton is "tough." That's changed, to an extent (and the change seems to be gaining speed).

 

To your first point - I don't think someone who enjoys Joshi has to do it in a creepy way. But also - just because Aja Kong isn't a traditional hottie doesn't mean a straight male fan isn't going to internalize his appreciation of her differently than that of Misawa.

[El-P]

But also - just because Aja Kong isn't a traditional hottie doesn't mean a straight male fan isn't going to internalize his appreciation of her differently than that of Misawa.

 

Why ? I, for one, as a huge Aja fan, never thought of her differently than, say, Vader, since he's the easiest comparison.

[Luchaundead]

. just one thing: i strongly feel that men should not call themselves feminists, because it's not our struggle and we can never fully understand it. that's some co-opting on our part imo

 

Black people really are lucky that white people in America didn't take this stance when it came to being Abolitionists

[El-P]

 

. just one thing: i strongly feel that men should not call themselves feminists, because it's not our struggle and we can never fully understand it. that's some co-opting on our part imo

 

Black people really are lucky that white people in America didn't take this stance when it came to being Abolitionists

 

 

Yep. It should be everyone's struggle. Human beings' struggle.

[Sportz Entertainment]

Apologies if this has been pointed out already, but even men are exploited in wrestling in a way that's at odds with feminism. I feel like most feminists would have a field day with wrestlers as independent contractors as a way to get around providing health insurance and a pension. They aren't unionized, either.

 

There's also taking steroids so they look good in underwear and their bodies are more marketable for action figures, not to mention the laughable idea that they have to be "credible", especially in a company like the WWF that has always had a very tongue-in-cheek presentation anyway. Feminism is generally concerned with exploitation of all people, not just women. Wrestlers are selling sex and violence.

.

Most people who watch Wrestling first got into it when they were children or teenagers and weren't very politially aware. It's that initial period as fans that sustains them even if they don't like aspects of the business both on and off screen later I can remember as a 17 year old not liking the pro Iraq war stuff WWE were doing in 2003 but it alone wasn't going to drive me away. . The thing I find strange is how many times I've seen people online in the last couple of years who are clearly trying to get into wrestling as adults. These are people with what you would call progressive politics. Even today wrestling has so many things that should count against it becoming accepted by this crowd.

[donsem43]

 

 

Now, pro-wrestling is about selling a procuct. And sex sells. It's nothing new. And we're getting back to the "blowjob" babyface in US territorial wrestling and the fact they drew tons of female fans. What's the difference between Stan Lane and Trish Stratus ?

 

I don't think that sexuality will ever be gone from wrestling for either women or men. It's just too easy to market attractive people to the masses. Even someone like Kana/Asuka is a more complicated example. Sure she has the most reasonable intergender matches in wrestling, but she's also had comedy matches based around her breasts and has several DVDs/photobooks that market her looks. I also think that there can be positives in this. If you market women like Asuka, Nia Jax, and even Bayley for their looks your sending out a positive message about body image, which is a lot better than just marketing women with their ribs sticking out and oversized breast implants as being the only people who are 'hot.'

[Luchaundead]

Apologies if this has been pointed out already, but even men are exploited in wrestling in a way that's at odds with feminism. I feel like most feminists would have a field day with wrestlers as independent contractors as a way to get around providing health insurance and a pension. They aren't unionized, either.

 

There's also taking steroids so they look good in underwear and their bodies are more marketable for action figures, not to mention the laughable idea that they have to be "credible", especially in a company like the WWF that has always had a very tongue-in-cheek presentation anyway. Feminism is generally concerned with exploitation of all people, not just women. Wrestlers are selling sex and violence.

 

I've seen lots of feminist critique of the jokes about Chris Christie's weight, so it seems like this would be of interest. And from my understanding (and I fully admit that I'm a novice who just reads a lot of stuff online), feminism is just as much about the exploration of masculinity as it is a political movement to support women.

 

By the strictest definition Feminism is squarely about men and women being treated equal in all ways. That is not to discount your point only redirect that what you are talking about is the concept that I've heard referred to as "Atheist plus". Which is a way to denote that topics and titles aren't enough to completely encompass the totality of a persons views and beliefs. Ship Canal alluded to this construct early on in the conversation with a more nuanced construct of personal description. So yes myself as a social-feminist I do take umbrage with the way wrestling companies treat their employees as independent contractors and don't give them the option to use collective bargaining but, that's not exactly a feminist issue.

[jdw]

A number of really good posts by people, especially by Redman.

[Jimmy Redman]

I said before I wanted to explore the idea of being a female online wrestling fan, but to be honest I'm not sure where to go with it. It's not something I've ever thought too much about. Like when Matt and I did the podcast and people mentioned that I was the first woman to host a show on the network...that part of it never even occurred to me. I'm not sure if people think of me as "the girl" around here, but I don't generally think of myself that way.

 

I think I only really think about it when some issue of gender or masculinity comes up on here in a wrestling context and I find myself bemused (or amused) by the opinions of the male majority. And it's usually not something offensive or anything, it's just that I suddenly remember that I'm a woman in a room full of men and we perceive these issues differently. But most of the time around here it's not something I'm acutely aware of, because as I've said, this is a fairly intelligent and respectful board.

 

Of course, once you get into the wider community of wrestling fans you encounter all kinds of misogyny. People that claim that female wrestlers have no talent and aren't worthy of pushes or airtime. The never ending focus on their looks and relationships and how fuckable they are and MGFanJay screencaps. And that's before you get to the truly hideous stuff, from the explicit language used to describe either "what I'd do to her hyuk hyuk" or how ugly and unfuckable they are, to the lecherous creeps who harass female wrestlers and buy their sweaty used ringwear and shit. And these kinds of things aren't confined to wrestling of course, but they are absolutely present in wrestling.

 

And these attitudes are a reflection of, and reflected back on wrestling itself, and all of the inherent sexism involved in the business and the presentation on TV. It's hard to blame fans for treating the women like tits and ass when that has historically how they've always been both treated and portrayed by wrestling companies. Someone made the point earlier about what a woman outside of the wrestling bubble would think if she watched a random Raw and saw how the women were dressed, how little they mattered, how rude the announcers were towards them, how objectified and demeaned they were. Wrestling fans always ask why wrestling is seen as so low brow by the media, by the general populace, by sponsors...one of the reasons why is that their treatment of women is on about the level of Jerry Springer or wet t-shirt contests. And it's something that as a wrestling fan and a socially aware person (not to mention as a woman) you have to kind of compartmentalize and accept to a certain extent, to not be put off from watching it, but I mean, that's the reality of it.

 

One thing that has struck me just now, and I'm not sure if it's pure coincidence or there's something to it, but maybe the lack of representation of females in online wrestling circles is not only a matter of numbers, but also a lack of awareness due to identities being obscured by usernames on message boards. My name is Jimmy Redman, and I'm sure most posters wouldn't have been aware that I was a woman until I mentioned it or they heard my voice or whatever. I'm gonna be honest, I had no idea El McKell was a woman until very recently. I'm pretty sure there's another regular poster who is female with a gender-neutral name that I can't think of right now. And there are a lot of non-gendered usernames used by men too but really, unless someone explicitly has a female name, if someone is on a wrestling message board you're going to assume they're a guy.

 

So now that I've noticed that, I'm wondering why that is? Are we as females subconsciously choosing online identities that obscure our gender? Is it easier to be accepted in an online wrestling community if you let everyone assume you're a man? Is it the hyper-masculinity of wrestling itself that lends itself to downplaying one's feminine side in favour of more masculine or at least gender-neutral aspects? Or am I just reading a whole lot into random selection of screen names?

 

I don't know the answer to that.

 

Even for myself. I choose this name for my CAW on Smackdown vs Raw games, so I used it when I started on wrestling message boards. I have no recollection of whether obscuring my gender played into my thinking at all, consciously or otherwise. I was like 14 years old, and as I kid I had a more complex relationship with gender than the average girl because I was such a tomboy (and then later realised I was gay). When I was little, whenever I role played in any kind of playing situation, it was usually as a guy. I was the Red Power Ranger, not the pink one, you know? So I honestly couldn't tell you whether it was just me preferring male alter egos, or whether it was a wrestling thing, or whether it was just about online anonymity and had nothing to do with gender issues. But seen that I'm not the only woman who has a name like this, I thought I'd put the question out there.

[donsem43]

The time for talk is over! The time for action is now!!!

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't help myself hence the spoiler tag in case someone does get offended. That's from today's Ice Ribbon show and as soon as I saw it I thought of this thread.

[El-P]

So now that I've noticed that, I'm wondering why that is? Are we as females subconsciously choosing online identities that obscure our gender? Is it easier to be accepted in an online wrestling community if you let everyone assume you're a man? Is it the hyper-masculinity of wrestling itself that lends itself to downplaying one's feminine side in favour of more masculine or at least gender-neutral aspects? Or am I just reading a whole lot into random selection of screen names?

 

I don't think you are. There was a lot of noise a few years ago in the french online gaming community after a long article by a feminist blog writer about sexism in that community. And she did talk about the fact that she would choose neutral or male usernames/characters just so she wouldn't be bothered or even harassed by sexist remarks (including some pretty hardcore stuff) and that it was pretty well known fact across the board, that women had to "hide" somewhat to prevent that kind of behaviour.

[Loss]

I said before I wanted to explore the idea of being a female online wrestling fan, but to be honest I'm not sure where to go with it. It's not something I've ever thought too much about. Like when Matt and I did the podcast and people mentioned that I was the first woman to host a show on the network...that part of it never even occurred to me. I'm not sure if people think of me as "the girl" around here, but I don't generally think of myself that way.

 

I think I only really think about it when some issue of gender or masculinity comes up on here in a wrestling context and I find myself bemused (or amused) by the opinions of the male majority. And it's usually not something offensive or anything, it's just that I suddenly remember that I'm a woman in a room full of men and we perceive these issues differently. But most of the time around here it's not something I'm acutely aware of, because as I've said, this is a fairly intelligent and respectful board.

 

Of course, once you get into the wider community of wrestling fans you encounter all kinds of misogyny. People that claim that female wrestlers have no talent and aren't worthy of pushes or airtime. The never ending focus on their looks and relationships and how fuckable they are and MGFanJay screencaps. And that's before you get to the truly hideous stuff, from the explicit language used to describe either "what I'd do to her hyuk hyuk" or how ugly and unfuckable they are, to the lecherous creeps who harass female wrestlers and buy their sweaty used ringwear and shit. And these kinds of things aren't confined to wrestling of course, but they are absolutely present in wrestling.

 

And these attitudes are a reflection of, and reflected back on wrestling itself, and all of the inherent sexism involved in the business and the presentation on TV. It's hard to blame fans for treating the women like tits and ass when that has historically how they've always been both treated and portrayed by wrestling companies. Someone made the point earlier about what a woman outside of the wrestling bubble would think if she watched a random Raw and saw how the women were dressed, how little they mattered, how rude the announcers were towards them, how objectified and demeaned they were. Wrestling fans always ask why wrestling is seen as so low brow by the media, by the general populace, by sponsors...one of the reasons why is that their treatment of women is on about the level of Jerry Springer or wet t-shirt contests. And it's something that as a wrestling fan and a socially aware person (not to mention as a woman) you have to kind of compartmentalize and accept to a certain extent, to not be put off from watching it, but I mean, that's the reality of it.

 

One thing that has struck me just now, and I'm not sure if it's pure coincidence or there's something to it, but maybe the lack of representation of females in online wrestling circles is not only a matter of numbers, but also a lack of awareness due to identities being obscured by usernames on message boards. My name is Jimmy Redman, and I'm sure most posters wouldn't have been aware that I was a woman until I mentioned it or they heard my voice or whatever. I'm gonna be honest, I had no idea El McKell was a woman until very recently. I'm pretty sure there's another regular poster who is female with a gender-neutral name that I can't think of right now. And there are a lot of non-gendered usernames used by men too but really, unless someone explicitly has a female name, if someone is on a wrestling message board you're going to assume they're a guy.

 

So now that I've noticed that, I'm wondering why that is? Are we as females subconsciously choosing online identities that obscure our gender? Is it easier to be accepted in an online wrestling community if you let everyone assume you're a man? Is it the hyper-masculinity of wrestling itself that lends itself to downplaying one's feminine side in favour of more masculine or at least gender-neutral aspects? Or am I just reading a whole lot into random selection of screen names?

 

I don't know the answer to that.

 

Even for myself. I choose this name for my CAW on Smackdown vs Raw games, so I used it when I started on wrestling message boards. I have no recollection of whether obscuring my gender played into my thinking at all, consciously or otherwise. I was like 14 years old, and as I kid I had a more complex relationship with gender than the average girl because I was such a tomboy (and then later realised I was gay). When I was little, whenever I role played in any kind of playing situation, it was usually as a guy. I was the Red Power Ranger, not the pink one, you know? So I honestly couldn't tell you whether it was just me preferring male alter egos, or whether it was a wrestling thing, or whether it was just about online anonymity and had nothing to do with gender issues. But seen that I'm not the only woman who has a name like this, I thought I'd put the question out there.

 

I'm so glad you are here, and I totally don't mean that in a condescending way. I genuinely mean it. You make me think, and it's really appreciated. Not just because of issues related to your gender either. You're a knowledgeable wrestling fan with a perspective I respect.

 

P.S. -- I've always wanted to read a list of your Top 100 Post-Attitude Matches. I hope you'll create that one day. I've thought that for a while, I just haven't said it.

[GOTNW]

There really isn't a lack of female wrestling fans as much as there is a lack of them using platforms like this. Pro wrestling criticism being Meltzer reddit dudebro stuff for so long may play a part in that.

[MoS]

Meltzer's board also happens to be a meeting point of the worst of the dregs of wrestling fans. I have seen them talk about how Austin should have stomped a mudhole in Debra and stunned her. I firmly convinced that 75% of the regular podters there are outright psychopaths.