C.S. Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 I haven't seen the match, but that gif is some seriously horrendous dogshit. WTF are they even doing? All I see is a bunch of flipping with no intention of even landing a move or doing anything that would affect the other wrestler in any way. Sorry, but it's bullshit and not for me. The big joke with one of the bad guys in the most recent Adam Sandler movie on Netflix, The Do-Over, is a tall guy who does insane flips. But even he landed a few shots, contrary to whatever the fuck is happening in that embarrassing abortion of a clip we saw in the gif. Edit: With that said, amazing response from Ricochet (even if I don't entirely agree with his convenient version of the "evolution" of wrestling): https://twitter.com/KingRicochet/status/736876715633303552 Edit: I watched the match and developed a more favorable opinion after seeing the whole thing. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/34521-gymnastics-in-pro-wrestlingthe-ricochet-ospreayvader-drama/page-3&do=findComment&comment=5755314 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 All I see is a bunch of flipping with no intention of even landing a move or doing anything that would affect the other wrestler in any way. Totally understand why it's not for everyone, but think it's fair to ask why you don't see the head-scissor attempts / counters in that sequence? Regal also gave his opinion: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/nmenas Bonus gif https://gfycat.com/SelfreliantAggressiveJunebug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 Crowds popping for this stuff makes me feel like Meltzer must have felt when fans were going crazy for Hogan and Warrior in the 80s, it's like they're exploiting the worst tendencies of modern fandom. I feel the same way with a lot of Young Bucks stuff. But if people dig it then great, I can watch Gulak or NXT or finish watching every Memphis TV show ever produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 Totally understand why it's not for everyone, but think it's fair to ask why you don't see the head-scissor attempts / counters in that sequence? Fair enough, and I may have been a bit harsh, but you have to admit that small sequence is buried among the rest of whatever the hell is going on in that gif. I'd honestly need to see the entire match to give an accurate assessment. I was probably no better than Vader by sounding off about one tiny clip. Edit: I watched the match and developed a more favorable opinion after seeing the whole thing. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/34521-gymnastics-in-pro-wrestlingthe-ricochet-ospreayvader-drama/page-3&do=findComment&comment=5755314 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Were those dudes attempting to have a wrestling match or re-enact The Matrix? Not my thing, but to each their own. Go Vader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superkix Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 There's no doubt these two guys are good at what they do. I thought the counter sequences and reversals were really fun to watch. The problem I had is that you've got these often overly complicated moves and sequences that often end up completely missing their mark (like Ospreay's twisty-mctwisty axe kick). And when the offense does connect, they skip over the selling to hurry into position for the next spot. Not my cup of tea but I can understand the excitement behind these kinds of aerial spectacles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 I'm still not sure what everyone's upset about here. The whole "mirroring each other's moves into a standoff" spot has been around for decades, I don't get why it's an issue here. Sure, theirs was way more intricate but it comes off to me like old baseball guys still bitching about the DH rule. I get why it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but that particular horse is well gone from the barn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 We've been around this circle for years. We've spent years writing thousands of words about it. This is just another drop in the bucket of the conversation. It's just a little more mainstream today, that's all. Tomorrow it won't be and we'll talk about it more in two months and in six months and in three years, especially as new kids find the board and it takes awhile for them to wrap their heads around the opposing point of view, which is, for perfectly understandable reasons, counter-intuitive to everything else they experience from almost everywhere else. And now I feel like John Williams. Great. Thanks. We need a FAQ or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 The GIF in question was in the first minute of the match.I understand not liking the spot, but the complaint I've seen around Twitter and other such places that they're not trying to win the match there seems really silly to me, especially if you watch the whole match and see that they spend the next ~15 minutes throwing everything they have at the other guy to try and put him away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 I will admit to not yet having seen the match and to not having seen much of Ospreay but when I saw the GIF on Twitter my instinctive reaction was to cringe pretty hard. I find myself doing that a lot when I see overly choreographed, flippy, self-aware stuff that the likes of the Young Bucks specialise in. I really think it's horrible to watch. But I guess they've achieved their ultimate goal now because a lot of people are going to seek out this match to see what the fuss is about and I think I probably should too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 It reminded me a lot of that Jack Evans vs. Matt Sydal match that was on the first episode of Wrestling Society X. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabe Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 How could the gif at issue not be posted yet??? https://twitter.com/itsvadertime/status/736307748309073920 That sequence sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 I dig it as an opening sequence where two guys are trying to show each other up as a psych out deal. The issue I have is that later in the match a guy no sold a brainbuster to the ring apron. But, if that's what the people are paying to see, then give it to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Personally I find that GIF to be overly choreographed and way overdone. It's very impressive they can do that. But to my tastes it's not pro wrestling. I can also see the flip side where people who like that kind of thing really love it and don't understand Vader's reaction at all. And if the crowd is popping for it, maybe it's the right thing to do in front of that crowd. I can see that sort of thing being used early in a show to get a crowd more into things. if you watch some Kobashi/Kroffat sequences from a midcard AJPW singles match on the big tour ender, they were doing a less acrobatic, but probably more cutting edge for 1993 than that stuff is now, version of that. It clearly wasn't meant to be an all time classic, just a fun match to get the crowd buzzing. A lot of the Mysterio/Blitzkreig/Juvi/Psicosis stuff from WCW seemed aimed at the same target. So there is a place for that brand of wrestling, even if it's not my idea of what wrestling ought to be. Gonna go back the other direction and say that I think wrestling is moving more and more towards the "moar flipz" type of work as time goes on. It's becoming much more an athletic exhibition than an exercise in storytelling. It has been for quite a while if I'm not totally wrong. Watching the 80s footage, you always had your workers who were ahead of their time with their use of a much wider variety of spots than had been used in the 70s. Then you go to the 90s with the junior heavyweights/cruisers bringing in the dives and the more fast-paced offense. As the 2000s go on, there is a definite trend among the lighter guys to constantly add in spots that topped things done even a year or two in the past. It's become less about the "why" something is being done and more about the "what" is being done. Something the martial art I am learning stresses is knowing why you are doing something. It gives the movements you do that added meaning (which ends up completely changing how they look, feel to do and land) that doesn't come through if you're just going through a sequence of motions. You can be as well-versed on the technique as you want, but if you don't know why you're doing it, it's going to look like an exhibition to anybody watching. And that's the thing that kills me about a lot of modern wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotJayTabb Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Was quite interested to spot Regal had chimed in on the "controversy" “I watched the match and was shocked. You need to start doing real stuff like people from my era like kip ups,flying head scissors,cart wheels and criss crosses. Get a grip! When I started the job in ’83 a lot of the older fellas used to say that Marc Rocco and Marty Jones (who were the real pioneers of the CW style) had killed the business because they did to much. Although they may not admit it anymore, most of the heavyweights in Europe thought the brilliant lightweight and middleweight wrestlers were bad for the job because their style was “not believable enough”.. Every country I worked in before I came to the US had different styles and ways of doing things.As long as there’s effort then it’s right.If the people paying you are happy and you get reactions then make your stuff as good as it can be with what skills you have.May not be for everyone but that’s ok.In the match I saw two fellas who looked like fighters having an excellent,hard competed match in a different style.Win win!” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gutenberger Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 I haven't seen that match, but judging from that GIF it seems like one where I could sit with a couple of friends and, beeing distracted from talking while watching a show, become more and more attentive because of the spots and this way getting more into the show and what's to follow. If however this would be for some price, say a title match, I'd most likely cringe at first and havong more of a hard time to get into the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 It feels like one of those matches that is a joy to watch live and maybe even the first time you see it, but would have no staying power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 For what its worth, a friend who watches zero wrestling saw the GIF of this going around online. He asked me where to watch this and why I never told him Japanese wrestling was like this in the first place. This is someone who's had zero interest in wrestling for 15+ years other than while flipping channels. I don't expect him to start spending money on it or getting truly invested in any wrestling at all, but thought it pretty cool and interesting he saw this one clip and wanted more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmmnx Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Is it possible to really like Prince Puma but hate Ricochet? I really dig Puma in LU, and this was my first time seeing him work as Ricochet and it kind of made me hate him. I thought everything about this match sucked a dick. Awful strikes, awful facial expressions, the selling went back and forth between nothing and ultra goofy, cutesy flips for the sake of cutesy flips, loud spot calling, etc. I really didn't like anything about this. Ricochet's facials are awful he'll have to wear a mask if he every goes to WWE. Also could Ospreay stop overselling with his goofy "you motherfucker" everytime he gets hit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Is it possible to really like Prince Puma but hate Ricochet? I really dig Puma in LU, and this was my first time seeing him work as Ricochet and it kind of made me hate him. I thought everything about this match sucked a dick. Awful strikes, awful facial expressions, the selling went back and forth between nothing and ultra goofy, cutesy flips for the sake of cutesy flips, loud spot calling, etc. I really didn't like anything about this. Ricochet's facials are awful he'll have to wear a mask if he every goes to WWE. Also could Ospreay stop overselling with his goofy "you motherfucker" everytime he gets hit? Some writers are way better with a strong editor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 I feel like he loses his charisma as Prince Puma but works a better style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
victory Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 I will admit I was pretty blown away at the athelticism in this match. Modern wrestling for the most part is hit or miss for me as I'm more of an 80's territory guy, but I can't nitpick this match. I showed the gifs to my 10 year old twins and one of them has been talking about that jumping ddt all weekend. He loved the moves. This match appeals to him and most younger people I would presume, it wasn't meant for us 40 yr and over fans IMO. Will it hold up over time? Who knows. Maybe it will be the modern version of Tiger Mask and Dynamite and then maybe it will be known as just a Teddy Hart spotfest and will be forgotten about in a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 How are people getting access to the full match? Is there an easy (legal) way to see it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Is it possible to really like Prince Puma but hate Ricochet? That's how I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 How are people getting access to the full match? Is there an easy (legal) way to see it? NJPW World. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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