Your most "Against The Grain" opinion on wrestling

[JaymeFuture]

I want to thank everybody for the contributions, we got to read many of them on the show, which is now available at the following link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/sk26vj/SCG_Radio_93_-_Going_Against_The_Grain_Part_1.mp3

Join us as we discuss your "Against The Grain" opinions on all things pro wrestling! We talk about a wide variety of topics this week - is Ric Flair a routine man with an elevated reputation? Is Shawn Michaels merely "solid"? We cover a wide number of your views on Lucha Underground and intergender wrestling, Steve Austin's heel run, Rob Van Dam, Bob Backlund, William Regal, Umaga, Tyson Vs. Austin, criticisms of Finn Balor and Sasha Banks, a debate on modern in-ring styles and a litany of other issues. With a ton more on the way next week in Part 2, this one was a great deal of fun, check it out!

[fakeplastictrees]

The Rock is more annoying than entertaining.

 

I know around here or with hardcore fans in general he's not especially celebrated but within the general fandom he's seen as the best thing ever. People anticipate him taking 25 minutes to walk down the ramp (gotta stop and cock your head like a raptor every two steps), then running through his usual schtick on the mic for 45 minutes, then destroying the credibility of whatever heel they decide to have him quickly beat down (most recently Rusev and the Wyatt Family).

 

Honestly I hate it. Every bit of it. If I never saw The Rock in a wrestling ring again I'd be perfectly happy.

 

 

100% agree. For the last 5 years or so, The Rock has been 'Goosebumps' Rock and that is the worst version. Its all comes off as too self important and too self aware. The Rock's swag, when he was an active wrestler, was that of a guy coming in to do business and the crowd going crazy. He felt like a big deal organically, but now its more of The Rock tells/showing everyone he THINKS he is a big deal in the most convoluted ways that created the stained and hurtful memories still carried to this day of 20 minutes HHH promos. I don't want to see Rock walk down a Mania isle again unless he is in a match, because his appearances have been more Ghostbusters 2016 vs. Ghostbuster 1984.

[cad]

Bobby Eaton is crazily overrated in these parts.

Anyone who refers to Eaton as Beautiful Bobby is crazily overrating him.

 

I'm generally skeptical of wrestlers who aren't particularly athletic or skilled. Charisma first guys can win me over but it usually takes a while.

 

Finding out that video of x event actually exists makes it hard for any of the matches to disappoint me. It's like closing the case on a mystery, the conclusion might not be all that satisfying but at least I know the answer.

 

I'd rather dig and dig at certain years from certain promotions than hop around. I'm either very thorough or very picky.

 

Specific to Mexico:

- 1993-1995 CMLL being better than 1993-1995 AAA sounds good but I'm not sure if it's right. Almost every CMLL wrestler got worse when the calendar flipped over to 1993 and the promotion itself is just so depressing.

- MS-1 is my favorite Infernal.

- 1992 is the best year from the '90s.

- Blue Panther is closer to one-dimensional than to a well rounded worker.

- Arena Coliseo DF is the best setting for televised wrestling.

[ohtani's jacket]

Specific to Mexico:

- 1993-1995 CMLL being better than 1993-1995 AAA sounds good but I'm not sure if it's right. Almost every CMLL wrestler got worse when the calendar flipped over to 1993 and the promotion itself is just so depressing.

 

 

Not sure there's anybody who really believes this. 1993-95 AAA being not very good was an against the grain opinion at one time, but I don't think anybody claimed that CMLL was better.

[goc]

Oh, here is another one from me: I think Todd Grisham was a really good announcer. He wasn't an over the top screamer, he didn't beat you over the head with the same tired phrases and he had an understated sarcastic sense of humor that would just pop up and surprise you some times. Considering that those are qualities that run almost completely contrary to what WWE wants from it's announcers, it's no surprise that he was not a favorite of Vince or Kevin Dunn. But I don't really get why he has a bad rep with certain circles of fandom.

 

Let's not forget that when Grisham was paired up with Matt Striker, Striker was actually somewhat of an internet darling as a color commentator and people thought he had some big future in the job. Somehow Grisham managed to reign in Striker's worst tendencies because once Striker started doing commentary with other people he quickly started going over board and got exposed as not being very good.

[PeteF3]

Grisham *is* kind of a clueless asshole, though.

[El-P]

As a language teacher, I gotta say, 15 years in a country and using a translator, yeah, it's kinda lame.

[PeteF3]

I mean, Stan Hansen on the rare occasions he was asked to speak on AJPW television in the '90s, spoke in English with subtitles. So did the Funks even though they're definitely fluent in Japanese.

 

If I were a pro athlete I doubt I'd trust the media as far as I could throw them, whether I spoke the home language or not.

[El-P]

"When the seagulls follow the trawler..."

 

[Matt D]

The reason why Striker was exciting to people wasn't Grisham holding him back but the fact we had a snarky announcer on WWE tv for the first time, mostly unsupervised. He'd reference companies other than WWE or Cure songs or whatever. I think people take for granted how crazy that was in 2009.

[El-P]

I take Matt Striker in LU over anyone else in WWE expect the French announcers who can make almost any shit product watchable because of their chemistry and lack of WWEism.

[NintendoLogic]

The mat-based stuff that NintendoLogic was referring to has more semblance to a real fight (or sport) than Michinoku Pro.

 

I disagree. A lot of it feels like a glorified exhibition.

 

I mean, Stan Hansen on the rare occasions he was asked to speak on AJPW television in the '90s, spoke in English with subtitles. So did the Funks even though they're definitely fluent in Japanese.

 

I doubt the Funks were fluent in Japanese. There was a match between Terry and Mr. Pogo in which Pogo broke his neck. Terry wondered why he was just lying there motionless and started attacking him. The referee tried to explain that he was injured, but Terry couldn't understand what he was saying. The impression I get is that the only foreign wrestlers who learn Japanese beyond a basic level are hardcore weeaboos like Kenny Omega. You need to realize that it's much easier to get by in Japan without knowing Japanese than it is to get by in America without knowing English. Hell, Stan Hansen was there for decades and he doesn't speak a lick of Japanese.

[Laz]

Dory actually speaks Japanese well enough.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dory actually speaks Japanese well enough.

Dory booked the foreign workers in AJPW for over a decade and was Giant Baba's point man for the NWA. I suspect his Japanese is better than Terry's.

[PeteF3]

...and Terry because of his bilingualness(?) was tasked with teaching Taka Michinoku to speak English when they were together in the WWF.

[Cobra Commander]

As a language teacher, I gotta say, 15 years in a country and using a translator, yeah, it's kinda lame.

if you've had the same translator for long enough, you're kinda indirectly getting him fired if you stop using a translator.

 

There might be an understated cultural thing in play here.

[joeg]

I got another one. I love RVD. In his ECW run he brought a big fight feel. His PPV matches felt like Tyson fights, that was partly booking but also partly his athleticism and that he stiffed the fuck out of everybody. Hell his AJPW run is great too. Where ever he worked he also managed to stand out

[JerryvonKramer]

In the same thread as people are genuinely saying that Bobby Eaton is overrated and still somehow calling themselves wrestling fans, we are getting someone saying that they love RVD.

 

When I look back on 2016 so far, I can only conclude that I am opposed to free speech.

[The Thread Killer]

I had a girlfriend who lived in Japan for two years for work reasons. By the end, she could read and write kanji, but her conversational Japanese was still very basic, and it wasn't from a lack of trying on her part. She loved the culture, the people and the language, and she made a concerted effort to learn to speak Japanese, but she found that it is actually a very difficult language to learn to speak. In the end, she learned the most useful phrases and responses, but she couldn't have a detailed conversation. She had coworkers tell her that English was fairly easy to pick up so they preferred to speak to her in English, but it was a common complaint that even conversational Japanese is extremely difficult to learn.

 

In the case of most pro wrestlers, you have to wonder how hard they even try to learn the language. Apparently, it is very easy to get by in Tokyo with English only.

 

Having said that...I'd like to think that after 15 years I'd be fairly fluent.

 

Isn't there a regular poster here at PWO who lives in Japan? Is it Ohtani's Jacket, or am I mistaken? Perhaps he could contribute to this point.

[El-P]

English also happens to be the easiest language to learn. Japanese is not (well, for Korean or Chinese, it's probably easier than English, closer at least for Koreans, but still, English is not a complicated language to learn and talk in a way you can get understood).

[WingedEagle]

When I look back on 2016 so far, I can only conclude that I am opposed to free speech.

 

No doubt its overrated.

[Jimmy Redman]

Also different methods of communication are different as well. I know a little French and I'm pretty good with reading and writing it, but listening and talking is a LOT harder for me.

 

So I'd probably still want a translator to get through a press conference even if I could read it perfectly well and get by conversationally.

[El-P]

Also different methods of communication are different as well. I know a little French and I'm pretty good with reading and writing it, but listening and talking is a LOT harder for me.

 

Makes sense. All you need is practice on the oral skills (comprehension & production), but if you're not taking course and/or living in the country where the language is spoken, it's hard. Even then, you can easily get by in Paris with only speaking English for instance, as long as you don't have to deal with the administrations.

[supremebve]

Ichiro is fluent in English and Spanish and everyone around baseball knows it. He only uses a translator when talking to the media, because he doesn't want his words misconstrued. He's apparently a really funny guy and everyone around baseball loves him. Seriously, the sports media is based on jumping on any little bit of controversy. He uses a translator to make sure he controls his message.

[El-P]

He uses a translator to make sure he controls his message.

 

There's a paradox lying somewhere though. You don't control a translation and there's always the risk of something being lost in it. If you're fluent, it means you're able to pass whatever message you want to with the upmost precision. If not, then you're simply not fluent. Hell, I don't consider myself *fluent* in English. So yeah. Then again, sports men... well.