WWE TV 8/29-9/4

[Matt D]

It seems like Charlotte was really loved in NXT and was met with apathy on the main roster until they turned her and brought in Ric as her corner man. I'm not sure why. Someone who followed NXT more at the time can probably explain the difference.

The reason Charlotte was hated on the main roster was because people thought Becky and Sasha were better and far more deserving, but that Charlotte was getting the push because of her lineage, her slightly more traditional look, and maybe, oh, I don't know, HHH's connection to Flair? I think we're in the same argument here. It was fine in NXT where everyone was protected and having good long matches. It was less fine on Raw when they were having short matches that paled to what had happened in NXT and where people were getting exposed. It all falls along the same lines.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

It seems like Charlotte was really loved in NXT and was met with apathy on the main roster until they turned her and brought in Ric as her corner man. I'm not sure why. Someone who followed NXT more at the time can probably explain the difference.

The reason Charlotte was hated on the main roster was because people thought Becky and Sasha were better and far more deserving, but that Charlotte was getting the push because of her lineage, her slightly more traditional look, and maybe, oh, I don't know, HHH's connection to Flair? I think we're in the same argument here. It was fine in NXT where everyone was protected and having good long matches. It was less fine on Raw when they were having short matches that paled to what had happened in NXT and where people were getting exposed. It all falls along the same lines.

 

But pretend it was Sasha who was pushed and Charlotte who wasn't. Do you think the reverse would have happened?

[El-P]

That meme is an excellent way to glide past what is a legitimate problem and never to properly address it. Carry on.

 

You confused me with someone who gives a fuck. Like I said, Good for Owens, who from all acount is a really good guy, a huge pro-wrestling fan (like us) and doesn't have the traditionnal WWE look. More power to him and congratulation.

 

(yes, I realize the angle was stootip and all about Triple H, but does anyone really think Trip is gonna be someone else than the asshole insecure egomaniac he's always been once he's got all the power over the company ?)

 

And about the girls, yes, Becky and Sasha deserved to be pushed a lot more than Charlotte as they were better pro-wrestlers all around. The heel turn did Charlotte tons of good though, but she still ain't all that.

[Matt D]

 

 

It seems like Charlotte was really loved in NXT and was met with apathy on the main roster until they turned her and brought in Ric as her corner man. I'm not sure why. Someone who followed NXT more at the time can probably explain the difference.

The reason Charlotte was hated on the main roster was because people thought Becky and Sasha were better and far more deserving, but that Charlotte was getting the push because of her lineage, her slightly more traditional look, and maybe, oh, I don't know, HHH's connection to Flair? I think we're in the same argument here. It was fine in NXT where everyone was protected and having good long matches. It was less fine on Raw when they were having short matches that paled to what had happened in NXT and where people were getting exposed. It all falls along the same lines.

 

But pretend it was Sasha who was pushed and Charlotte who wasn't. Do you think the reverse would have happened?

 

People in Wisconsin would be confused?

 

Is Sasha pushed as a face or a heel? Is she still getting nothing matches on Raw despite the whole Divas revolution thing? Is she pushed as a chickenshit heel or a vulnerable babyface (like Paige was when she came up) or is she pushed dominant.

 

You have to give me more than that. Details matter.

[JerryvonKramer]

Call me cynical but I think the exact same fans would have been moaning about Charlotte not getting pushed. I just think they are full of shit.

[Matt D]

I don't call you cynical, Parv. I call you someone who is sorely lacking in data. You're the blind man touching the elephant.

 

Now watch the Kevin Owens promo I posted.

[JerryvonKramer]

Absolutely not. I might watch a Superstars from 1990 and duck out of this.

 

The general principles of what I'm talking about are 100% the case, but clearly no one wants to admit it's a problem, so I'll get out of dodge. I'm not watching any promos from 2016.

[Matt D]

You are arguing that the fans will rebel against anyone who is pushed and support anyone who is not pushed. You're wrong.

 

There is truth to be found in there, quite a bit of truth, but you're taking so diametric a view that you're coming off as buffoonish and reactionary. If you took a nuanced view instead, you would come off as cutting and correct.

[JerryvonKramer]

A nuanced view requires actually watching this shit, so I'll take half-right buffoonish curmudgeon instead. You lot can fill in the specific details and argue about the minutiae, I'm only talking about the broad ideas.

 

Like Aristotle or Jim Cornette.

[Matt D]

A nuanced view requires actually watching this shit, so I'll take half-right buffoonish curmudgeon instead. You lot can fill in the specific details and argue about the minuatae, I'm only talking about the broad ideas.

 

Like Aristotle or Jim Cornette.

 

If you won't watch the promo (which is two minutes of Owens being pissed off at the crowd for being everything you claim that they are), will you at least change your Board Profile Title to "Half-right buffoonish curmudgeon?"

[goc]

Since they are continually hijacking the product which is leading to guys like Owens being put in the top slots while really capable workers like Roman Reigns are shitted on, the real point goes back to what we've been talking about for the past few weeks. You can't let a portion of the fanbase dictate the product, and I'm really disappointed to see Vince and co giving in as much as they are. Cart before the horse.

I'm wondering when this big shift occurred for you because like 6 months ago you were arguing that Roman Reigns should just be let go because he wasn't getting over.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Since they are continually hijacking the product which is leading to guys like Owens being put in the top slots while really capable workers like Roman Reigns are shitted on, the real point goes back to what we've been talking about for the past few weeks. You can't let a portion of the fanbase dictate the product, and I'm really disappointed to see Vince and co giving in as much as they are. Cart before the horse.

I'm wondering when this big shift occurred for you because like 6 months ago you were arguing that Roman Reigns should just be let go because he wasn't getting over.

 

Actually if you read that article, I was arguing that they botched his push badly because of a lack of conviction in the booking, failed to put him over in key moments, and that he was a busted flush. I always maintained he was a great worker and he's had the best WWE matches I've seen in the past 2-3 years.

[anarchistxx]

I do wish if people were going to criticize Owens, they'd leave his look out of it because talking about it only exposes how superficial the person who says it is. If you have a point to make about it KO on the merits (which that post did admittedly contain), make it but stick to that.

 

I do think his look is of some importance, though. And it isn't necessarily a superficial thing - it isn't that he isn't 'pretty' or 'marketable' enough to fit my beauty standards of a champion or anything like that. It is more to do with presentation. I'm not Vince McMahon in 2006 demanding my top workers are clean cut muscly athletes with short hair and a good size.

 

It is more that a champion should look distinctive, should have a sort of aura around him, should seem like a 'top guy'. He should carry himself like an elite member of the roster, and that is to do with his mannerisms, his promo work, his dress, his presentation.

 

His appearance should say something about him. I'm not asking for a generic look of a Randy Orton either. Daniel Bryan was a good fit as champion because his appearance of red trunks, pale body and generic clothes matched his gimmick of a tough underdog, a never say die pure wrestler. CM Punk was a good fit as champion because he had this distinctive, laid back style, a cool tattooed look that fit in with his alternative vibe and a snarky character that he took into his matches. Roman Reigns and Seth Rollins aren't necessarily your cookie cutter looking champions, but they both have distinct characters and traits that match with their look, the sleazy athletic desperate grease ball for Rollins and the badass-clad-in-all-black for Reigns. What does Owens look say about him? How does it progress or complement his character?

 

Owens has bigger problems that his look. He lacks believability, is unnatural both on the mic and in the way he moves, has very little charisma, doesn't manage to appear threatening or dangerous whatsoever. He comes across as small time, as someone playing at wrestling and going out there to have a good match rather than to advance his character or get the fans involved in the actual angles and characters rather than just cheering 'this is awesome' at the athletic stunt show they are watching. I agree he would likely be better playing at Vader vs Sting rather than Kobashi vs Misawa, but does he have the restraint or skill or ability to do so?

 

He seems to have no real gimmick - outside the ring he is maybe playing the obnoxious jackass, although he doesn't really pull it off that well...but inside the ring his gimmick is just of some workrate bloke trying to have the best match on the card and throw bombs and trade finishers until the crowd gets into it. When he does that look of shock after yet another 2.9 count, it doesn't draw you in and make you think he is truly shocked that he hasn't won...you are just waiting for the next meaningless spot. Especially because he does the same thing whether it is the second match on Raw or a PPV main event.

 

And I think it is true to say that his look doesn't help matters. It gives him no identity, and that is what he desperately needs.

 

TL;DR? It is presentation as much as physical appearance. It is the way he carries himself rather than his body. It is the clumsy way he works rather than the clumsy way he shaves.

[hammerva]

I have no idea how you can say he doesn't play the obnoxious jackass well. I mean he tortures Byron Saxton and Michael Cole every chance he gets. He mocks his opponents every chance he gets. He is an opportunistic bully and that it is his gimmick. Most bullies I knew didn't look like Bobby Roode or some muscle bound freak.

 

Also if you think Owens in ring sucks but loved AJ Styles vs Cena at Summerslam then you are a hypocrite.

[NotJayTabb]

I'd argue Owens DOES have an aura around him. He's a guy that's managed to remain over, despite spending the past 12 months in the most 50/50 booking period of the WWE. For better or worse, Owens always gets a reaction coming out - it may be booing or it may be cheering, but he gets a reaction. Some of that may be due to his "indy darling" background, but he's over in a way than Sami Zayn isn't, or Cesaro and Crews never will be.

 

Everyone has their own opinion, but I'd also argue he's one of the better promo guys in the company. He's naturally witty, his motivations are always clear and it's obvious that people in power feel the same way - very few wrestlers get put on guest commentary as much as Owens.

[fakeplastictrees]

That segment felt like none of the writing staff were on the same page over whether Steph or Paul were being sincere or sarcastic at any given moment. Awful.

 

This has been a big issue with WWE this year and for some time actually. The brand split is one of the most recent glaring example. Shane spends WEEKS cutting promos about how Smackdown is going to be fresh, innovative, and full of young talent. The whole 'New Era' talking point used to the lead up of The Draft was mainly because of Shane. Shane was also talking about how smart he is, etc. Come draft time he, knowing he is at a disadvantage when it comes to the number of picks, decides that Kane is a good pick. Daniel Bryan, in kayfabe knows all the good wrestlers in WWE and was made co-GM for his expertise in this area, this of course means that Sami, Cesarao, and Owens are not drafted to Smackdown and despite ALL OF NXT apparently being open, decided not to bring up Nakamura, Joe, Aries, Asuka, etc. The writers and the directors (Vince, etc.) obviously didn't have a conversation and get synced up because one simple announcement would have closed the NXT logic loop created and would have made both Shane and Stephanie look less like idiots.

[goc]

Something that hasn't gotten mentioned yet about HHH's return is that it just happens to conveniently take place after the brand split removed any possibility of him having to share screen time (and smark savior status) with Shane McMahon.

[Jimmy James]

I think Meltzer has repeatedly "hinted" how HHH seems to never be in the same angles as Shane ever since Shane came back. I have no idea what he is hinting at, but hey.

[Ricky Jackson]

He's basically spelled it out that they don't like each other for whatever reason

[goc]

I think Meltzer has repeatedly "hinted" how HHH seems to never be in the same angles as Shane ever since Shane came back. I have no idea what he is hinting at, but hey.

Well besides the idea that they just don't like each other, my take on it is that HHH has spent all this time building up this idea that he's the great savior of wrestling and doesn't want to have that get fucked up by Shane's return.

 

HHH is the guy who has rescued the indy darlings from the tyranny of Vince McMahon's big guy fetish and given us the greatest thing that has ever or will ever be, the almighty NXT. And since before that Shane was the smark savior everyone kept hoping would return to WWE from exile, banish evil Stephanie and take over, HHH doesn't want Shane's comeback to steal away any of his new smark street cred.

[Jimmy James]

 

I think Meltzer has repeatedly "hinted" how HHH seems to never be in the same angles as Shane ever since Shane came back. I have no idea what he is hinting at, but hey.

Well besides the idea that they just don't like each other, my take on it is that HHH has spent all this time building up this idea that he's the great savior of wrestling and doesn't want to have that get fucked up by Shane's return.

 

HHH is the guy who has rescued the indy darlings from the tyranny of Vince McMahon's big guy fetish and given us the greatest thing that has ever or will ever be, the almighty NXT. And since before that Shane was the smark savior everyone kept hoping would return to WWE from exile, banish evil Stephanie and take over, HHH doesn't want Shane's comeback to steal away any of his new smark street cred.

 

I wonder if Hunter will ever lower himself to begging CM Punk to come back. Smark chants are a powerful drug,

[Laz]

TL;DR? It is presentation as much as physical appearance. It is the way he carries himself rather than his body. It is the clumsy way he works rather than the clumsy way he shaves.

So here's a guy who got over because he isn't what a wrestler is supposed to look like, because he doesn't talk like a wrestler is supposed to talk, and works in a way that is different than how a wrestler is supposed to work...and you're mad that people who are actually paying the company want to see him?

[TravJ1979]

It's a real catch 22 too, because now that smart fan culture has "gone mainstream" you are caught in a bind. Why? Because smart fans since day 1 have always secretly got off about being perpetually negative about the product. They know better. Their guy isn't being pushed. The wrong guy is champ. And yada yada since jdw was born in 1934.

 

So what can WWE do? Even if they give them what they want, they'll find new things to moan about.

 

Weird, sado-masochistic negative audience who pay their money without fail to consume something they pretend to be disgruntled with. Cos, what WWE really need to do is model themselves on a two-bit indie promotion like ROH circa 2005, yeah, they'd worked it all out then hadn't they.

 

My rage at twats who have ruined the thing I love knows no bounds.

 

Even getting to the point where I'm feeling pangs of fondness for shit that happened in 2005 or 06, hardly banner years. I think the only solution is to comp kids and ban 18-35 year old hardcores for a year. Being serious. Wrecking wrestling they are. That's YOU "wrestling Twitter".

Post of the year.

[anarchistxx]

 

TL;DR? It is presentation as much as physical appearance. It is the way he carries himself rather than his body. It is the clumsy way he works rather than the clumsy way he shaves.

So here's a guy who got over because he isn't what a wrestler is supposed to look like, because he doesn't talk like a wrestler is supposed to talk, and works in a way that is different than how a wrestler is supposed to work...and you're mad that people who are actually paying the company want to see him?

 

 

I've seen zero evidence that Kevin Owens is a draw, and that significant numbers of people pay to see him, or even that he is particularly over. He is moderately over with some (not all) live crowds, mostly on the basis of him having masturbatory overkill workrate matches every week and the smarks in the audience who pop for bombs and nearfalls thinking that makes him a good worker.

 

You completely misread my post - it is nothing to do what a wrestler is supposed to look like, because workers of all different appearances and characters have been credible, successful champions. It is about projecting an aura, carrying yourself with charisma. And your comments about his mic work are off the mark, because he is desperately trying to talk how he believes a wrestler is supposed to talk in his promos, he just doesn't have the skill or natural charisma to pull it off and it seems as forced as his ring work.

 

This is someone who has no idea how to work a match like a proper heel, no idea how to build a match slowly and draw in a crowd, no idea how to do anything subtly. Regardless of his appearance he has no business being the top guy in the company, but at least if he had a distinct, unique look and a sense of style about him you could understand it. He does not possess it. At all.

[Cap]

I would argue that "aura" and "carrying yourself with charisma" really pushes the whole thing into the subjective. I love Owens aura and think he is very charismatic, always have. I think at his best he paints himself as a very unique competitors that can register a variety of threats to other wrestlers. I think his "sloppy" in ring style is very strategic and part of the aura he is building. I think there is - again, at his best - a lot of subtly in his work and think he absolutely knows how to draw real heel heat. Admittedly, he was made a little too comical and cute recently, but he isn't reducible to his last four months on TV either. To me, he makes a lot of sense and is the kind of guy I trust to add something to a match, a segment, or a feud precisely because of his subtle character work, his charisma, and his aura. But none of that is objective or measurable, so speaking in absolutes seems counterproductive. I just see a lot of that as a matter of how many people buy in and a lot of people over the years have bought in.

 

I will say, there there has to be a reason he has been THE champion for a number of "indy" organizations, NXT, and now WWE. For someone who has no business being on top... he has been on top of a variety of wrestling promotions.