Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[WingedEagle]

 

 

One thing I've learned over the last two months is that I am going to treat puro the same way puro fans treat lucha.

 

In the past if somebody made a MOTY list and left off something like Canis Lupus vs Trauma I I'd be annoyed, because I went out of the way to watch those hyped NJPW matches. It's pretty obvious it's not a two way street.

 

I don't really see a reason to watch puro anymore. I used to feel that would make my opinions invalid, but it's pretty clear it doesn't, since lucha is being ignored in the same way.

 

Was there any answer to the question in the OP that would've made you change this decision? What happened in the last two months? just curious.

 

 

No idea. This thread was to try to understand why this was happening more than anything else.

 

The last two months just had me thinking about this shit more often, more than any events happening. Also time is limited.

 

 

 

One thing I've learned over the last two months is that I am going to treat puro the same way puro fans treat lucha.

 

In the past if somebody made a MOTY list and left off something like Canis Lupus vs Trauma I I'd be annoyed, because I went out of the way to watch those hyped NJPW matches. It's pretty obvious it's not a two way street.

 

I don't really see a reason to watch puro anymore. I used to feel that would make my opinions invalid, but it's pretty clear it doesn't, since lucha is being ignored in the same way.

 

Your first statement is incredibly immature, but you probably already know that.

 

What if someone watched Canis Lupus vs. Trauma I and didn't think it was a MOTYC? Do you want people to give it a chance or to concur with your every assessment?

 

If you're going to pick & choose your wrestling based on who else watches it you're only spiting yourself. Try to stick to what you actually enjoy regardless of who else comprises the audience.

 

It's really immature to do what 90% of fans do?

 

To turn that around, if I watch what highly praised puro match and didn't like it, does that mean I gave puro a chance? What I am talking about is not people giving something a chance and not liking it. There are people who will try to watch highly praised stuff, but they are the minority. The majority go, I don't get lucha and ignore the whole thing.

 

I stick to what I enjoy, the difference is I used to feel obligated to watch all the highly praised stuff. That usually means lots of NJPW stuff. All that has changed is me feeling obligated to watch it.

 

For a few years (13-15) I watched a TON of NJPW, because that is the praised stuff. There was some good stuff and some bad stuff. I never really dug it. I have limited watching time, why should I waste any of that on NJPW?

 

What I want to do is really focus in on what I like and try to shine some light on it.

 

Lucha is not inferior to puro, but it is obviously seen that way by the masses. The only small thing I can do is focus my viewing habits onto what I think is good, not what the masses feel is good.

 

How is that immature?

 

 

Its immature if its in fact as it sounds that you're quitting on Japanese wrestling because fans of Japanese wrestling don't watch enough lucha to satisfy you. If you don't like Japanese wrestling, or WWE, or ROH, or PWG, or lucha, or RPW, and don't watch it because you don't like it, that makes all the sense in the world. But it read as though you were throwing in the towel on Japan because people who champion it aren't giving lucha enough of a chance in your book. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

[Matt D]

It is immature to do something that you think other fans do immaturely. Just pointing that out. The whole "Two wrongs don't make a right" thing.

[Grimmas]

I'm quitting Japanese wrestling, because I don't really like it. The last few year's of having came from the obligation to feel unbiased by watching everything praised. That obligation is gone, because nobody else does it or it's unrealistic.

It's a complete side topic to why lucha is talked about the way it is. Them only winning match of the year, most outstanding wrestler, and wrestler of the year once in the WON awards history should be a bigger talked about subject.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Grimmy Poo, I'm getting the vibe that you may be implying there's a racial thing going on, and I don't think that's it at all.

To put it simply, I think that maybe the answer to your original question has to do with "real sports". (I'm speaking in huge generalizations here, so take that into account. )

A LOT of people I've talked to over the years initially got into Japanese wrestling because of the "real sports" deal. I remember lots of "It's like a real sport over there" or " The fans treat it seriously over there." talk amongst people who were first getting into it. And since lots of fans have a bit of an inferiority complex about wrestling generally being considered stupid in most places, certainly in America , I can see the appeal of getting into "serious " and "realistic" wrestling. Whereas Lucha at first viewing has tumbling heroes and villains in masks and costumes. And of course upon close examination you can find all kinds of wrestling in both cultures, I think a lot of the reasons behind your initial query are boiled down to what I was saying above.

So, I think that maybe that's part of the answer to your original question.

[Grimmas]

Grimmy Poo, I'm getting the vibe that you may be implying there's a racial thing going on, and I don't think that's it at all.

To put it simply, I think that maybe the answer to your original question has to do with "real sports". (I'm speaking in huge generalizations here, so take that into account. )

A LOT of people I've talked to over the years initially got into Japanese wrestling because of the "real sports" deal. I remember lots of "It's like a real sport over there" or " The fans treat it seriously over there." talk amongst people who were first getting into it. And since lots of fans have a bit of an inferiority complex about wrestling generally being considered stupid in most places, certainly in America , I can see the appeal of getting into "serious " and "realistic" wrestling. Whereas Lucha at first viewing has tumbling heroes and villains in masks and costumes. And of course upon close examination you can find all kinds of wrestling in both cultures, I think a lot of the reasons behind your initial query are boiled down to what I was saying above.

So, I think that maybe that's part of the answer to your original question.

That's an interesting take.

 

I'm not trying to imply it's racism. I think what it comes down to is coverage and the people who run wrestling narratives (Meltzer) almost ignoring it.

[drew wardlaw]

 

 

People not liking lucha is not the lucha.

The issue is it getting completely ignored or the majority of people just thinking the whole thing sucks. While, puro (especially current NJPW) get this insane amount of praise all the time.

 

Why is this? That is the question posed. Is it really that lucha sucks and puro rules or is there something else going on here?

 

I think it was nailed earlier in the thread with there being a learning curve and people's reaction to that.

 

It's called mass appeal. Believe me a lot of people do try lucha once in a while, especially when something big e.g. CMLL anniversary show is coming up. They just don't get stuck. Blame the shitty production, blame the fact that they like the idea of mexican wrestling more than actual mexican wrestling (see: people saying they prefer Chikara, LU, luchadores in japan etc. to mexican wrestling).

 

Similiarily you can see that most people listen to pop/rock music or a variation of it. They don't listen to 70s prog rock or free jazz or death metal. You can play them something like this,

 

and they most likely won't find it appealing. It's not what they are used to so it's hard to discern what's going on, and that goes for a lot of people who say they like heavy music (=thick guitar production) aswell. Most of them will say it's just a bunch of noise just like people say lucha has no psychology and is just pretty moves.

 

Japanese wrestling is appealing to the niche audience of internet fans who grew up with american wrestling. Better production, more big events and feuds to get into, similiar 2.99999 layout that they are familiar with from american wrestling, no confusing rules or heel ref bullshit. Plus hearing the impact of the chops and bumps makes a huge difference. I started watching lucha with BTJr. handhelds and it was a lot easier to get into than CMLL TV.

Listen I don't have a rat in this race but Incantation RULES and I've been listening to Golgotha and Mortal Throne pretty heavily this Christmas season.

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

 

Grimmy Poo, I'm getting the vibe that you may be implying there's a racial thing going on, and I don't think that's it at all.

To put it simply, I think that maybe the answer to your original question has to do with "real sports". (I'm speaking in huge generalizations here, so take that into account. )

A LOT of people I've talked to over the years initially got into Japanese wrestling because of the "real sports" deal. I remember lots of "It's like a real sport over there" or " The fans treat it seriously over there." talk amongst people who were first getting into it. And since lots of fans have a bit of an inferiority complex about wrestling generally being considered stupid in most places, certainly in America , I can see the appeal of getting into "serious " and "realistic" wrestling. Whereas Lucha at first viewing has tumbling heroes and villains in masks and costumes. And of course upon close examination you can find all kinds of wrestling in both cultures, I think a lot of the reasons behind your initial query are boiled down to what I was saying above.

So, I think that maybe that's part of the answer to your original question.

That's an interesting take.

 

I'm not trying to imply it's racism. I think what it comes down to is coverage and the people who run wrestling narratives (Meltzer) almost ignoring it.

And a base reason for that is the fact that those people probably felt the way I described. I mean, Meltzer's love of MMA is totally based on "real sports". "It's just like wrestling, but it's real."

[Coffey]

Dave Meltzer's opinion of matches or styles is not something I ever think about before, during or after a match. In fact, the only time I ever remember he even exists is when I go on forums & see people mention him. Then I get curious. Meltzer and I rarely see eye-to-eye on... well, almost anything. He seems to love shitty spotfest gimmick matches & he loves The Young Bucks, in example. It's weird to me that in this thread people are using Meltzer as like a way to knock what other fans are into.

[Jetlag]

If people were truly giving lucha a fair shot then there would be more than

 

1 Lucha Match of the Year

1 Lucha Thesz/Flair Winner

1 Lucha Most Oustanding Wrestler (although he worked in WCW)

 

In the history of the WON awards and luchadors would had done better in the GWE.

 

 

The same applies to european wrestling. European wrestling never received any of the awards you are talking about there. I also just looked over the last 2 pages of the ***** / **** 3/4 matches thread and there were only 2 or 3 matches from europe there compared to almost everyone having matches from mexico in their list. In fact, lucha is much better represented than WoS or CWA. On the 90s yearbooks, there were only a handful of european matches but dozens of mexican ones. Actually there is near zero discussion on 90s european wrestling. Jim Breaks, probably the most beloved WoS worker, didn't even make the Top 50 in the GWE, while the two top rated brit guys all worked extensively in the US and japan. OJ has written a lot about it on this site but there's not much more discussion than that compared to the endless talking about lucha. Otto Wanz vs. Vader is almost never mentioned as one of the best feuds of the 80s. Wanz and many other deserving euro workers still are' in the WON Hall of Fame.

 

Could it be? Are people not giving european wresting a fair shake? Is there something going on? Do I need to ignore people who praise 90s AJPW and El Dandy but don't even know the likes of Mile Zrno or Alan Kilby? Did the british not import enough US cultural hegemony? Is Meltz a US imperialist? Or could it be that people largely just don't like it/don't feel inspired to get really into it?

[Johnny Sorrow]

And the love for "real sports" feel is totally based on tapping into those amazing feelings you had when you were a kid and you thought wrestling was real.

 

I'm like Barbra in "Prince Of Tides".

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

 

If people were truly giving lucha a fair shot then there would be more than

 

1 Lucha Match of the Year

1 Lucha Thesz/Flair Winner

1 Lucha Most Oustanding Wrestler (although he worked in WCW)

 

In the history of the WON awards and luchadors would had done better in the GWE.

 

The same applies to european wrestling. European wrestling never received any of the awards you are talking about there. I also just looked over the last 2 pages of the ***** / **** 3/4 matches thread and there were only 2 or 3 matches from europe there compared to almost everyone having matches from mexico in their list. In fact, lucha is much better represented than WoS or CWA. On the 90s yearbooks, there were only a handful of european matches but dozens of mexican ones. Actually there is near zero discussion on 90s european wrestling. Jim Breaks, probably the most beloved WoS worker, didn't even make the Top 50 in the GWE, while the two top rated brit guys all worked extensively in the US and japan. OJ has written a lot about it on this site but there's not much more discussion than that compared to the endless talking about lucha. Otto Wanz vs. Vader is almost never mentioned as one of the best feuds of the 80s. Wanz and many other deserving euro workers still are' in the WON Hall of Fame.

 

Could it be? Are people not giving european wresting a fair shake? Is there something going on? Do I need to ignore people who praise 90s AJPW and El Dandy but don't even know the likes of Mile Zrno or Alan Kilby? Did the british not import enough US cultural hegemony? Is Meltz a US imperialist? Or could it be that people largely just don't like it/don't feel inspired to get really into it?

Nah, it just sucks. 😄

[cad]

 

I wouldn't accuse someone of racism for not liking some kind of wrestling. Japanese culture in almost all shapes is usually treated as more important than Mexican culture, simple as that. Maybe it just captures the imagination more. I don't know why it would surprise anybody that the same holds true in professional wrestling.

 

I wouldn't claim that any of this is untrue, but I also don't think it matters much at all in this discussion. I for one am someone who has much more of an affinity for Mexican culture, and Latin cultures as a whole, based purely on the personal relationships I have with people of Hispanic descent. I generally don't have any personal ties to Japan or any Japanese people. I've been to Mexico, I know some Spanish, and some of my closest friends are Hispanic. If cultural bias was involved, I'd probably like lucha far more than puro, but I don't. I don't believe it has any bearing at all on my opinion of any particular brand of wrestling. It is a style of wrestling that isn't for everybody, and that is probably as deep as it gets.

 

It's fair to call me out on that, and I sure as hell can't read anyone else's mind either. On the other hand, I don't think that any Japanese promotion's idiosyncrasies get questioned the way Mexico's do.

[The Russian Daydream]

 

 

If people were truly giving lucha a fair shot then there would be more than

 

1 Lucha Match of the Year

1 Lucha Thesz/Flair Winner

1 Lucha Most Oustanding Wrestler (although he worked in WCW)

 

In the history of the WON awards and luchadors would had done better in the GWE.

 

The same applies to european wrestling. European wrestling never received any of the awards you are talking about there. I also just looked over the last 2 pages of the ***** / **** 3/4 matches thread and there were only 2 or 3 matches from europe there compared to almost everyone having matches from mexico in their list. In fact, lucha is much better represented than WoS or CWA. On the 90s yearbooks, there were only a handful of european matches but dozens of mexican ones. Actually there is near zero discussion on 90s european wrestling. Jim Breaks, probably the most beloved WoS worker, didn't even make the Top 50 in the GWE, while the two top rated brit guys all worked extensively in the US and japan. OJ has written a lot about it on this site but there's not much more discussion than that compared to the endless talking about lucha. Otto Wanz vs. Vader is almost never mentioned as one of the best feuds of the 80s. Wanz and many other deserving euro workers still are' in the WON Hall of Fame.

 

Could it be? Are people not giving european wresting a fair shake? Is there something going on? Do I need to ignore people who praise 90s AJPW and El Dandy but don't even know the likes of Mile Zrno or Alan Kilby? Did the british not import enough US cultural hegemony? Is Meltz a US imperialist? Or could it be that people largely just don't like it/don't feel inspired to get really into it?

I think it's as simple as that most people in these circles got into wrestling through North American wrestling. Japanese wrestling is really very similar from an in ring standpoint. The match structure, the moves and holds used and even a lot of the wrestlers themselves (particularly in the 89s and 90s) are familiar to a North American wrestling fan. It's just so much more accessible.

 

The Lucha and European styles are different beasts entirely. Someone used to US wrestling has to pretty much 'forget' how wrestling works when watching Lucha or WoS/CWA.

 

Personally, I watched British wrestling first as a child before being exposed to WWF/WCW later on. I think it's easier to go that way than the other direction. On the other hand, I've always found Lucha more difficult. I've watched a fair few highly regarded matches but just can't get into it at a deeper level.

 

I guess it's like if you speak Swedish, you can have good shot at understanding things in Norway or Denmark but if you went to China you'd have to start from the beginning. It's all just speaking, listening and reading but some languages are easier to flit between than others.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dave Meltzer's opinion of matches or styles is not something I ever think about before, during or after a match. In fact, the only time I ever remember he even exists is when I go on forums & see people mention him. Then I get curious. Meltzer and I rarely see eye-to-eye on... well, almost anything. He seems to love shitty spotfest gimmick matches & he loves The Young Bucks, in example. It's weird to me that in this thread people are using Meltzer as like a way to knock what other fans are into.

I think what is a lot more interesting is how he came to similar conclusions to a lot of other people in the thread re: lucha.

 

It's almost like there's a common root cause ...

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

 

If people were truly giving lucha a fair shot then there would be more than

 

1 Lucha Match of the Year

1 Lucha Thesz/Flair Winner

1 Lucha Most Oustanding Wrestler (although he worked in WCW)

 

In the history of the WON awards and luchadors would had done better in the GWE.

 

The same applies to european wrestling. European wrestling never received any of the awards you are talking about there. I also just looked over the last 2 pages of the ***** / **** 3/4 matches thread and there were only 2 or 3 matches from europe there compared to almost everyone having matches from mexico in their list. In fact, lucha is much better represented than WoS or CWA. On the 90s yearbooks, there were only a handful of european matches but dozens of mexican ones. Actually there is near zero discussion on 90s european wrestling. Jim Breaks, probably the most beloved WoS worker, didn't even make the Top 50 in the GWE, while the two top rated brit guys all worked extensively in the US and japan. OJ has written a lot about it on this site but there's not much more discussion than that compared to the endless talking about lucha. Otto Wanz vs. Vader is almost never mentioned as one of the best feuds of the 80s. Wanz and many other deserving euro workers still are' in the WON Hall of Fame.

 

Could it be? Are people not giving european wresting a fair shake? Is there something going on? Do I need to ignore people who praise 90s AJPW and El Dandy but don't even know the likes of Mile Zrno or Alan Kilby? Did the british not import enough US cultural hegemony? Is Meltz a US imperialist? Or could it be that people largely just don't like it/don't feel inspired to get really into it?

I think it's as simple as that most people in these circles got into wrestling through North American wrestling. Japanese wrestling is really very similar from an in ring standpoint. The match structure, the moves and holds used and even a lot of the wrestlers themselves (particularly in the 89s and 90s) are familiar to a North American wrestling fan. It's just so much more accessible.

 

The Lucha and European styles are different beasts entirely. Someone used to US wrestling has to pretty much 'forget' how wrestling works when watching Lucha or WoS/CWA.

 

Personally, I watched British wrestling first as a child before being exposed to WWF/WCW later on. I think it's easier to go that way than the other direction. On the other hand, I've always found Lucha more difficult. I've watched a fair few highly regarded matches but just can't get into it at a deeper level.

 

I guess it's like if you speak Swedish, you can have good shot at understanding things in Norway or Denmark but if you went to China you'd have to start from the beginning. It's all just speaking, listening and reading but some languages are easier to flit between than others.

I think it's not just the style but the world or "universe".

 

The worlds of NWA, AWA, Mid-South, AJPW, NJPW, even Memphis and Puerto Rico are all interconnected, part of the same universe. Like DC comics or something. Each promotion is like a title within an overarching universe.

 

I guess in this analogy WWE would be Marvel, especially after Vince hermetically sealed it off. Flair in 91-2 is a huge crossover event. NWO is an even bigger one.

 

Lucha and WOS and Wanz don't belong in these universes, they are like I dunno Valiant comics, whatever, some unconnected publication.

 

That's the easiest way I can think to explain why they get less attention typically -- beyond just the style / taste stuff we've talked about.

[El-P]

About immaturity, no offense Grim, but the very title of the thread came off pretty whiny to me.

 

As it's often the case with lucha being discussed in comparison to Japan. Poooor lucha. Must be some kind of "higher art" in pro-wrestling that people not willing to "put the effort in" (please) just can't understand. I'm sorry, but that tone is a bit of a regular occurence when lucha is discussed, and as Charles mentionned, the fact purist lucha fans sometime have that kinda "high horse" attitude talking down to the puroresu-loving bozos who must be Evil Meltzer disciples and post-colonialist lazy pro-wrestling fans not able to understand a culture not permeated by US tropes.

 

Whereas, as it been pointed many times, including by Goc, who no one will accuse me of agreeing with a whole lot usually, there are a lot of common elements between lucha and good ol' rasslin'.

 

What is more foreign ? A bunch of clear defined heels and faces in colorful costumes with beatdowns and comebacks or a bunch of undistinctive japanese guys in black trunks, black books, no kneepads doing some bizarre back and forth, sudden quick selling strikes and odd looking selling ?

 

There are reasons why, most of them contextuel. But Lucha ain't "hard to get". I said myself I never really "got it", but not in the way of "this is too foreign, this is too odd". Just in a "this isn't really drawing me completely", despite having seen some great old-school bloodletting. I would point out to a lot a stuff that have been talked bout, like announcing, production, presentation etc...

[Jetlag]

 

The worlds of NWA, AWA, Mid-South, AJPW, NJPW, even Memphis and Puerto Rico are all interconnected, part of the same universe. Like DC comics or something. Each promotion is like a title within an overarching universe.

 

I guess in this analogy WWE would be Marvel, especially after Vince hermetically sealed it off. Flair in 91-2 is a huge crossover event. NWO is an even bigger one.

 

Lucha and WOS and Wanz don't belong in these universes, they are like I dunno Valiant comics, whatever, some unconnected publication.

 

That's the easiest way I can think to explain why they get less attention typically -- beyond just the style / taste stuff we've talked about.

 

This is something that I think would only apply to a special segment of hardcore fans. It's also funny that you mention these universes having no crossover appeal considering there are a ton of US/japanese workers that worked mexico/britain/europe. Yes, they may be slightly different from how they worked on their home planets, but I can't see that if you are a fan of Chris Jericho or Sayama or Vader or whoever, why not check out what they did in a different country.

 

Hell, Wanz' universe reads like a Best Of of the world wide wrestling scene (minus Mexico, funnily enough). And it was in fact a criticism of him that he brought in and protected too many US guys. If you are a fan of US or japanese heavyweight or junior wrestling in anyway, there is a ton of stuff to check out on CWA cards. You like Dick Murdoch trolling rubes and bloodying the local babyface up, go watch him do that in germany. Even if you don't like the eurostyle or european guys you could check out something like the Vader vs. Fujinami match from Bremen which is like a New Japan style match that has rounds and KOs.

 

I still maintain that production and availableness is really important. There is a reason people talk about the pro-shot Wanz vs. Vader matches but not about the shitty handheld stuff. IWRG, Monterrey and those indies have almost unwatchably bad sound and camera work. CMLL also has shitty mics, clipping, dozens of replays and other annoying things. That there is a flood of CMLL footage online doesn't actually help things either (I'm just observing my own frustrations here, I'm a fan of mexican wrestling myself). During the GWE project I found a Hamada vs. Panther handheld from japan that I've never seen mentioned anywhere ever. Because people just don't seek out grainy dark footage with bad sound. That Vader/Fujinami match I mentioned above would probably be a slam dunk in people's MOTY lists if it were filmed properly in japan. Eventually a completist may come along and mercifully put it on a comp or YouTube where it gets on people's radars. Look how much the DVDVR 80s projects did for the discussion, and not just for lucha.

 

Meanwhile japanese wrestling is uploaded in picture perfect quality and even the low level indies have good camera work and sound.

[JerryvonKramer]

When I watch Eddie tagging with Art Barr in Mexico all it really ends up doing is confirming that I think Eddie is a great worker... and further highlighting what I see as deficiencies in the style as everyone else looks rubbish by comparison.

 

Just telling you the truth of how I process it. And I can't be the only one.

[Cap]

That comic book analogy is probably a lot better and more accessible way of thinking through it the way I was with narratives and storytelling.

[Matt D]

I think lucha IS hard. Not Sangre Chicana vs MS-1. That's primal. But if you were to just watch tomorrow night's show on Clarosports, it would be hard. I can think of a couple of reasons for that, some of which I've touched on before, and it is about the viewers and how they've been conditioned, not the wrestling.

 

1.) Everything you think you know is wrong: Or at least it's inadequate. You've been given the wrong information to help you. This is not for the younger fans but the ones approximately Parv's age. Nitro conditioned us poorly with 8 minute spotfest trios and Mike Tenay giving us the least useful information in the world. Again, i've covered this before, but coming in knowing the RULES about captain's falls and tags not being necessary if someone leaves the ring is about as useless as watching a 80s WWF match for the first time and being told about the 5 count on a rope break or if someone goes up to the top rope. They are trappings but just trappings. What's far more useful when it comes to that 80s WWF match is to learn about shine-heat-comeback, about some traditional transitions (putting the head down on a back body drop), about hope spots. That's what you would tell someone in understanding a match like that. No one starts with the RULES. It's like starting to explain the plot of Star Wars by going on about the different things Vader can do with the Force. It's not the narrative. So you end up with people thinking they're ready to understand lucha because it'll be just like what they're used to except for a few rule changes and that's not the case. There are the similarities that goc mentioned but except for in the lowest hanging fruit, you have to look for them and more importantly look for the patterns and symbols. For instance, captains getting pinned doesn't matter nearly as much as trios matches having a central feud/focus (when they do, which is often, and it's often not the captains at all).

 

2.) Meltzer (and thus much of the commentary that followed) focused on the wrong things. This is a guy who couldn't figure out why Mocho Cota was a big draw in 1993. This is someone who was into early AAA but only ever seemed to notice (or at least note) half of what was going on in the matches. Look, at my work we have annual performance reviews, and due to the nature of the organization, in these, your core work is generally ignored. It's one objective out of seven, even if it's 90% of your work. What you're supposed to focus on instead is all the other bonus projects you were working on, even if they're ultimately incidental compared to what you've been hired to do and what the organization needs you to do. It's like that with organization-wide awards too. They never reward the CORE work. Meltzer is like that with wrestling. Maybe it's because he grew into wrestling in the 70s when so many of the things we've gone back and discovered and lauded over the last few years were just commonplace for him. "Working" (as opposed to workrate) was taken for granted, or even outright boring, the illusion of action instead of action itself. But that "working," the emotional manipulation of the crowd through falsehood... that's what wrestling is all about. That's the CORE of wrestling. All the big spots and movez and everything else? That's just the bonus and a lot of times it comes (much like in my job) at the expense of the real day to day business, which is a lot harder than it actually looks. Good lucha is almost always about delayed gratification leading to the comeback. It's not about the dives or the flips or the tricked out matwork or the frenetic pace. Those are part of what makes things special (either by highlighting the tecnicos so that when the rudos cheat and take over, you're madder at them due to your respect and awe of the tecnicos skill or in the way that skill is again shown as part of the comeback, the tools for the favorites vanquishing their foes, but really, that could be awesome punches or tricky babyface fouls or someone like Tinieblas, Jr. or Marco Corleone or Dos Caras Jr using their size, or Maximo or Super Porky using humor any number of other things too).

[ohtani's jacket]

I've been curious about this topic for a long time. Puro, by most fans, is considered the best wrestling. It's constantly praised above all other wrestling.

 

On the other hand, lucha is just ignored or mocked and gets praise only from really small circles.

 

GWE was a great example where puro dominated things and a luchador couldn't crack the top 10.

 

Does this come down to coverage from places like Dave or that lucha was developed differently, while puro was developed like American wrestling?

 

It's just very odd to me.

 

Perhaps a better way to approach this is how lucha fans can help to make lucha more appealing or accessible for new fans.

 

Other people have spelled out why Japanese wrestling has always been more appealing to hardcore fans than lucha; the one thing I would add is that when I first started branching out, and became interested in wrestling from other countries, much of the groundwork had already been done for Japan. You knew which tapes to get because of jdw's pimping posts, DVDVR, etc. It didn't matter whether it was All Japan, New Japan juniors or Joshi, all of the information was out there.

 

Lucha these days is a million times more accessible in terms of how much content is online. Ten years ago there was very little lucha uploaded onto the internet. Where it's lacking is the narrative detail. I tried really hard when I was doing the Lucha History Lessons stuff to find more information about lucha history by doing rudimentary searches in Spanish. People will never be able to follow lucha the way they follow 90s All Japan through commercial tapes and season sets, and the Misawa narrative and Kawada narrative, but if they know as much as they can about Sangre Chicana (for example), who he was and what he was doing in the early 80s, then I think it makes a difference because it creates greater excitement than the name being thrown out there. Before I ever ordered a tape, I remember getting excited about constantly "hearing" the name Kawada or Misawa. You heard it so much that you felt like you were missing out on something by not being part of the tape trading circle. The only luchador that was build up that much was Santo and even then it wasn't comparable to Liger.

 

This hasn't been a very articulate or well thought out post, but I think you have to give people a reason to be excited about lucha.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

 

 

If people were truly giving lucha a fair shot then there would be more than

 

1 Lucha Match of the Year

1 Lucha Thesz/Flair Winner

1 Lucha Most Oustanding Wrestler (although he worked in WCW)

 

In the history of the WON awards and luchadors would had done better in the GWE.

 

The same applies to european wrestling. European wrestling never received any of the awards you are talking about there. I also just looked over the last 2 pages of the ***** / **** 3/4 matches thread and there were only 2 or 3 matches from europe there compared to almost everyone having matches from mexico in their list. In fact, lucha is much better represented than WoS or CWA. On the 90s yearbooks, there were only a handful of european matches but dozens of mexican ones. Actually there is near zero discussion on 90s european wrestling. Jim Breaks, probably the most beloved WoS worker, didn't even make the Top 50 in the GWE, while the two top rated brit guys all worked extensively in the US and japan. OJ has written a lot about it on this site but there's not much more discussion than that compared to the endless talking about lucha. Otto Wanz vs. Vader is almost never mentioned as one of the best feuds of the 80s. Wanz and many other deserving euro workers still are' in the WON Hall of Fame.

 

Could it be? Are people not giving european wresting a fair shake? Is there something going on? Do I need to ignore people who praise 90s AJPW and El Dandy but don't even know the likes of Mile Zrno or Alan Kilby? Did the british not import enough US cultural hegemony? Is Meltz a US imperialist? Or could it be that people largely just don't like it/don't feel inspired to get really into it?

I think it's as simple as that most people in these circles got into wrestling through North American wrestling. Japanese wrestling is really very similar from an in ring standpoint. The match structure, the moves and holds used and even a lot of the wrestlers themselves (particularly in the 89s and 90s) are familiar to a North American wrestling fan. It's just so much more accessible.

 

The Lucha and European styles are different beasts entirely. Someone used to US wrestling has to pretty much 'forget' how wrestling works when watching Lucha or WoS/CWA.

 

Personally, I watched British wrestling first as a child before being exposed to WWF/WCW later on. I think it's easier to go that way than the other direction. On the other hand, I've always found Lucha more difficult. I've watched a fair few highly regarded matches but just can't get into it at a deeper level.

 

I guess it's like if you speak Swedish, you can have good shot at understanding things in Norway or Denmark but if you went to China you'd have to start from the beginning. It's all just speaking, listening and reading but some languages are easier to flit between than others.

I think it's not just the style but the world or "universe".

 

The worlds of NWA, AWA, Mid-South, AJPW, NJPW, even Memphis and Puerto Rico are all interconnected, part of the same universe. Like DC comics or something. Each promotion is like a title within an overarching universe.

 

I guess in this analogy WWE would be Marvel, especially after Vince hermetically sealed it off. Flair in 91-2 is a huge crossover event. NWO is an even bigger one.

 

Lucha and WOS and Wanz don't belong in these universes, they are like I dunno Valiant comics, whatever, some unconnected publication.

 

That's the easiest way I can think to explain why they get less attention typically -- beyond just the style / taste stuff we've talked about.

 

 

Different tangent but I kind of like the idea that WoS is similar to British comics like 2000 AD or Viz w/ French catch being similar to those French comics that fund the Toulouse rugby team, or Asterisk or Tintin (even if that was Belgian.) But Japan has a robust comic book industry that doesn't quite fit the shared universe analogy. If anything, the success of Japanese comic books further highlights the commonly held belief that the Japanese are very good and copying (and improving things) as opposed to coming up with original ideas. This may be why some fans feel as though Japanese wrestling perfected the wrestling they grew up with, particularly disgruntled fans.

[ohtani's jacket]

When I watch Eddie tagging with Art Barr in Mexico all it really ends up doing is confirming that I think Eddie is a great worker... and further highlighting what I see as deficiencies in the style as everyone else looks rubbish by comparison.

 

Just telling you the truth of how I process it. And I can't be the only one.

 

Eddie wasn't that great in Mexico. I don't think it's a case of WCW luchadores like Psicosis or Juventud where you can argue that they were better in Mexico than they were in WCW. Eddie, for my money, improved while working in WCW. I'm not even sure how much Eddie in Mexico you've seen beyond wanting to make a flippant comment, but it's difficult for me to imagine he looked great compared to Casas carrying him in Juarez, Apolo Dantes looking every bit the same son of a "legend" in '91, or working with Santo in '94.

[Herodes]

I guarantee he's seen little to nothing beyond the WWC tag

[Grimmas]

About immaturity, no offense Grim, but the very title of the thread came off pretty whiny to me.

 

As it's often the case with lucha being discussed in comparison to Japan. Poooor lucha. Must be some kind of "higher art" in pro-wrestling that people not willing to "put the effort in" (please) just can't understand. I'm sorry, but that tone is a bit of a regular occurence when lucha is discussed, and as Charles mentionned, the fact purist lucha fans sometime have that kinda "high horse" attitude talking down to the puroresu-loving bozos who must be Evil Meltzer disciples and post-colonialist lazy pro-wrestling fans not able to understand a culture not permeated by US tropes.

 

Whereas, as it been pointed many times, including by Goc, who no one will accuse me of agreeing with a whole lot usually, there are a lot of common elements between lucha and good ol' rasslin'.

 

What is more foreign ? A bunch of clear defined heels and faces in colorful costumes with beatdowns and comebacks or a bunch of undistinctive japanese guys in black trunks, black books, no kneepads doing some bizarre back and forth, sudden quick selling strikes and odd looking selling ?

 

There are reasons why, most of them contextuel. But Lucha ain't "hard to get". I said myself I never really "got it", but not in the way of "this is too foreign, this is too odd". Just in a "this isn't really drawing me completely", despite having seen some great old-school bloodletting. I would point out to a lot a stuff that have been talked bout, like announcing, production, presentation etc...

Facts are not whining.

 

So lucha is just inferior is what it boils down to? Nothing else going on?