WWE Fastlane

[NitroFan]

I love the idea that it took Goldberg more effort to beat guys like Glacier, Johnny Attitude, and Jerry Flynn in his physical prime than it does to beat Brock Lesnar and a WWE Champion after a 12 year lay off.

Jerry Flynn in his physical prime was nothing to be trifled with.

[SteveJRogers]

 

 

 

Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

Even more looooooooool, Bray vs Orton is going to headline over Brock/Goldberg for the title

People still believe that whole "Royal Rumble winner headlines WrestleMania!" talking point even though there have been NUMEROUS times that's not been true?

WrestleMania XXVII even had the Rumble winner, Alberto del Rio, open the PPV and lose the championship match to Edge.

Hell, Hart-Austin is a better example of "Rumble Winner MUST headline" not being a hard and fast rule.

[Matt D]

 

You're right, of course, but card management is a big problem in general. Is Zayn going to get a singles match? Is Joe? Is Braun? Is Harper? We did just have a Smackdown PPV with 3 women's matches, right? Mania's tough because all of the bullshit. They've never figured out a way around it. I think, personally, I'd much rather have a Wrestlemania VII with a lot of fun little showcase matches than a bunch of 25 minute "epics." I know I'm not in the majority though.

 

No I get that, and it's tough trying to fit everyone onto Mania, but it's about priorities.

 

The top male wrestlers WILL get top singles matches/title matches/showcase matches at Mania. It's when you get down to the midcard or leftover guys where they'll get thrown into a random undercard match or the battle royal to get them on the show. Jobbers will struggle to make it on.

 

But the top female wrestlers WILL get thrown into their random undercard matches to get them on the show. Everyone below them misses out.

 

The women have kind of made it from the absolute bottom of that Midcard/Throw Them On Somewhere tier to the top of it. That's progress I guess. But they're still ways away from cracking the top tier. They flirted with it by having them main event a B PPV and Raw and stuff (and again I'm not complaining about that kind of progress) but when you get to Mania you see where their REAL priorities lie. And at Mania the clock strikes midnight and the women have to go back into their box. We need the time for the real stars.

 

Like, the fact that the women have come so far in the last 12 months kind of makes it worse. During the year they can main event PPVs and TV and have 30 minute title matches and stuff. They've shown that they have the workers and the popularity to do it. But they won't even consider building two separate women's issues for Mania. They won't even consider building to some epic, 30 minute title match like the men get. The best they can do is shoehorn them into the same lone title match spot that they always get. But this time, they'll get 15 minutes to work instead of 3.

 

Again, I don't disagree, but I think there's such a lack of basic competence that it's hard to hone in too much. It's basically saying "Your house is on fire. Also, all the windows are broken." If they were doing a bunch of things right and this was one that was wrong, then, sure, but this is just another cup of water in the bucket of gross card management incompetence. When's the last time they booked a successful, meaningful tag team championship feud at Mania? When's the last time there was a singles match for a secondary title that really mattered in your Savage vs Steamboat/Shawn vs Razor (or even Rock vs Shamrock/Savage vs Steele) sort of way? At the very least, you could argue that the women last year were one of the biggest matches on the card. Their faces were up there with Shane/Taker and Reigns/HHH. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Mania is not the best indicator of this sort of thing because it's so broken to begin with across the board.

[stro]

 

You're right, of course, but card management is a big problem in general. Is Zayn going to get a singles match? Is Joe? Is Braun? Is Harper? We did just have a Smackdown PPV with 3 women's matches, right? Mania's tough because all of the bullshit. They've never figured out a way around it. I think, personally, I'd much rather have a Wrestlemania VII with a lot of fun little showcase matches than a bunch of 25 minute "epics." I know I'm not in the majority though.

 

No I get that, and it's tough trying to fit everyone onto Mania, but it's about priorities.

 

The top male wrestlers WILL get top singles matches/title matches/showcase matches at Mania. It's when you get down to the midcard or leftover guys where they'll get thrown into a random undercard match or the battle royal to get them on the show. Jobbers will struggle to make it on.

 

But the top female wrestlers WILL get thrown into their random undercard matches to get them on the show. Everyone below them misses out.

 

The women have kind of made it from the absolute bottom of that Midcard/Throw Them On Somewhere tier to the top of it. That's progress I guess. But they're still ways away from cracking the top tier. They flirted with it by having them main event a B PPV and Raw and stuff (and again I'm not complaining about that kind of progress) but when you get to Mania you see where their REAL priorities lie. And at Mania the clock strikes midnight and the women have to go back into their box. We need the time for the real stars.

 

Like, the fact that the women have come so far in the last 12 months kind of makes it worse. During the year they can main event PPVs and TV and have 30 minute title matches and stuff. They've shown that they have the workers and the popularity to do it. But they won't even consider building two separate women's issues for Mania. They won't even consider building to some epic, 30 minute title match like the men get. The best they can do is shoehorn them into the same lone title match spot that they always get. But this time, they'll get 15 minutes to work instead of 3.

 

While that sounds like a "WWE showing its true colors about the women", it's clear that none of the women WWE currently has employed saved for maybe Asuka are capable of handling what is needed for a WM main event match. The top four can't even finish a 10 minute TV match without it falling apart multiple times. And these are women that work with each other pretty much exclusively for the past 2-3 years. Do you really trust Bayley to end the show of shows in front of 100K people?

 

The Divas Revolution worked, the Four Horsewomen are all decent-great workers, but every match any of them are involved in can still go completely off the rails any second regardless of opponent. You can't depend on them not to get completely lost and not know how to get back.

[El-P]

 

I'd much rather have a Wrestlemania VII with a lot of fun little showcase matches than a bunch of 25 minute "epics." I know I'm not in the majority though.

 

 

You're definitely not alone in feeling that way, either. One (self-conscious) **EPIC** match per card is *plenty* in my book, even for the biggest shows of the year.

 

Thirded.

 

What a lame-ass show.

 

So. I have to deprogram my TNA 2005 brain to enjoy Samoe Joe vs Sami Zayn. Because Samoe Joe in 2005 was just another beast. Still, this was a nice Samoa Joe vs JTTS Impact match. Sort of. I don't feel like it was that impressive for either of those guys though.

 

I'm not watching Enzo & Cass. They're the worst NAO ever. And their opponents are mediocre NJPW cast-offs. So, no.

 

Ok. I know we're in the era of "every fat/big guy was awesome and a great worker" bullshit, but Nia Jaxx brings nothing to the table. She's the least intimidating female monster ever. Her shit looks weak as hell. Sasha was basically twisting herself around a woodblock. Waste of time for Sasha. Well, at least she won.

 

So, some filler including poor Rusev & Lana. Lana is a cool act and she's like the hottest woman ever, and she gets to do zilch. Rusev is completely wasted. He could be a monster heel still, a champ, a cool babyface, but no. He's just getting thrown in shit angles and gets feed to the fucking Big Show, who still can't lift his leg to hit a big boot correctly and who probably won't get that "dream match" (yeah, irony) at Mania. Fuck this.

 

Neville vs Gallagher was like the best match on the show at this point (and until the end), but I'm surprised Gallagher doesn't get shit on for taking an unprotected, uncontrolled headdropping bump followed by a finisher (kind of) only to kick out and then keeping on going. WWE gets pass for everything I guess. I also find him too gimmicky in his englishness. Work more like Regal and less like the Vaudevillains, please.

 

New Day.... awwwwww fast forward. Them hosting Mania is gonna be atrocious.

 

Ok. Roman Reigns. Why the fuck should I care. This guy is sleep inducing to me. Boring sell, boring offense, the crowds hates him. I like Braun better, but this goes on forever. Braun doing a top rope splash is kinda cool. But it makes the whole cruiserweight division looks idiotic too. But then again, so did Vader. This was dull as hell most of the time and way too fucking long (because Roman is The Guy I guess and The Guy in WWE always has epic match even though he really can't).

 

Ok, so what the hell happened in the women's match ? I know "execution doesn't matter" (sarcasm), but this was sloppy as all hell, with overshoots, bumbling around, screwed up spots and stuff looking like crap. Bailey is turning into Yastu post 87 or what ? The finish was indeed weak and the idea of a four-way at Mania (including Jaxx, who has no business except jerking the curtain learning how to work), well, Miss Redman explained it very well why it's lame booking. Anyway, this was easily the worst Charlotte match in forever.

 

Main event. Ah ah. At this point this is a mercy killing. Still, I was tired of this kind of Goldy stuff by mid 1998. The revival bit was both stupid and glorious against Lesnar. There it's plain redondant. But after killing Lesnar in two seconds, you can't not kill KO in two seconds too.

 

Well, I have ZERO desire to see Mania. The New Day hosting (and the idea of Hulk "niggas ain't shit" Hogan doing a nostalgic/apologetic bullshit act would be the cherry on that distasteful cake). Roman vs the Corpse of Taker. Bray vs Orton in a Black Holes nightmare epic. A four way cluster including worst monster ever Nia. AJ vs SHANE MOTHERFUCKING MCMAHON. Well, actually Goldy vs Lesnar is the only intriguing stuff left, and not for the match itself but for the booking.

 

(Lucha Underground can't come back soon enough)

[goc]

I haven't watched Raw in months so I don't know about crowd reactions, but man did these fans hate Roman. This didn't seem like a smarky crowd either. Is Vince just going to keep trying to force this Roman baby face ace thing until he croaks? Beating Taker will make him even more hated.

How could turning Roman heel possibly make him more hated with the people booing him now than he already is? It's not like it's stopped them from going to shows, if anything it's encouraged them to go so they can boo him and "stick it" to Vince or whatever. It's not like there wasn't a sizeable portion of that crowd that DID like him, he got dueling chants and his fans were cheering him throughout the match. It's just the Cena dynamic all over again.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

 

I haven't watched Raw in months so I don't know about crowd reactions, but man did these fans hate Roman. This didn't seem like a smarky crowd either. Is Vince just going to keep trying to force this Roman baby face ace thing until he croaks? Beating Taker will make him even more hated.

 

How could turning Roman heel possibly make him more hated with the people booing him now than he already is? It's not like it's stopped them from going to shows, if anything it's encouraged them to go so they can boo him and "stick it" to Vince or whatever. It's not like there wasn't a sizeable portion of that crowd that DID like him, he got dueling chants and his fans were cheering him throughout the match. It's just the Cena dynamic all over again.

I was there live and it was definitely the Cena dynamic. The same guys that were chanting "Roman sucks" when he was hitting the corners after he won were engaged in the match the whole time. I had a good time but I'm sure that's where not watching the TV and not being engaged in the storylines helps. The only thing I really didn't care for was the tag match but I think both of those teams are unwatchable, so that was to be expected. The end of the women's match definitely did fall apart unfortunately, especially where there was supposed to be (I think) a sliding dropkick? It seemed like the bottom rope was loose?

 

I came in wanting to see a Goldberg squash in the main, so I left happy with that.

[goc]

 

 

I haven't watched Raw in months so I don't know about crowd reactions, but man did these fans hate Roman. This didn't seem like a smarky crowd either. Is Vince just going to keep trying to force this Roman baby face ace thing until he croaks? Beating Taker will make him even more hated.

How could turning Roman heel possibly make him more hated with the people booing him now than he already is? It's not like it's stopped them from going to shows, if anything it's encouraged them to go so they can boo him and "stick it" to Vince or whatever. It's not like there wasn't a sizeable portion of that crowd that DID like him, he got dueling chants and his fans were cheering him throughout the match. It's just the Cena dynamic all over again.

I was there live and it was definitely the Cena dynamic. The same guys that were chanting "Roman sucks" when he was hitting the corners after he won were engaged in the match the whole time.

 

There was a dude in the front row in a Boston Red Sox jersey losing his mind yelling at Roman when he & Braun were fighting on the outside, it looked like something you'd see on NWAOnDemand and not 2017 WWE. You're not going to get that kind of engagement from a "conventional" heel.

 

The best use of Roman was last year right after Mania when he was just The Guy and not pandering to the crowd and there's no way turning him to do "hey this is where you boo me" style mic work would be any better than that OR actually get the kind of negative reactions he's getting now.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

 

 

 

I haven't watched Raw in months so I don't know about crowd reactions, but man did these fans hate Roman. This didn't seem like a smarky crowd either. Is Vince just going to keep trying to force this Roman baby face ace thing until he croaks? Beating Taker will make him even more hated.

 

How could turning Roman heel possibly make him more hated with the people booing him now than he already is? It's not like it's stopped them from going to shows, if anything it's encouraged them to go so they can boo him and "stick it" to Vince or whatever. It's not like there wasn't a sizeable portion of that crowd that DID like him, he got dueling chants and his fans were cheering him throughout the match. It's just the Cena dynamic all over again.

I was there live and it was definitely the Cena dynamic. The same guys that were chanting "Roman sucks" when he was hitting the corners after he won were engaged in the match the whole time.

There was a dude in the front row in a Boston Red Sox jersey losing his mind yelling at Roman when he & Braun were fighting on the outside, it looked like something you'd see on NWAOnDemand and not 2017 WWE. You're not going to get that kind of engagement from a "conventional" heel.

 

The best use of Roman was last year right after Mania when he was just The Guy and not pandering to the crowd and there's no way turning him to do "hey this is where you boo me" style mic work would be any better than that OR actually get the kind of negative reactions he's getting now.

Agreed. Just let him be what he is now. I would expect him to get better on the mic (or find someone who can write for him) and just keep getting that kind of engagement.

 

I popped for the guy with the Red Sox jersey because it was a Mark Bellhorn jersey, which was awesome. We were on that side, just above where the hard camera cuts off.

[Mando]

Catching up on the show this morning (drove north to Columbus for a concert last night) and just wanted to chime in with love for Neville vs. Gallagher. Awesome stuff! Probably my WWE match of the year thus far. Well-paced, unpredictable, and absolutely physical. I jumped off the couch a couple times.

[Grimmas]

 

 

You're right, of course, but card management is a big problem in general. Is Zayn going to get a singles match? Is Joe? Is Braun? Is Harper? We did just have a Smackdown PPV with 3 women's matches, right? Mania's tough because all of the bullshit. They've never figured out a way around it. I think, personally, I'd much rather have a Wrestlemania VII with a lot of fun little showcase matches than a bunch of 25 minute "epics." I know I'm not in the majority though.

 

No I get that, and it's tough trying to fit everyone onto Mania, but it's about priorities.

 

The top male wrestlers WILL get top singles matches/title matches/showcase matches at Mania. It's when you get down to the midcard or leftover guys where they'll get thrown into a random undercard match or the battle royal to get them on the show. Jobbers will struggle to make it on.

 

But the top female wrestlers WILL get thrown into their random undercard matches to get them on the show. Everyone below them misses out.

 

The women have kind of made it from the absolute bottom of that Midcard/Throw Them On Somewhere tier to the top of it. That's progress I guess. But they're still ways away from cracking the top tier. They flirted with it by having them main event a B PPV and Raw and stuff (and again I'm not complaining about that kind of progress) but when you get to Mania you see where their REAL priorities lie. And at Mania the clock strikes midnight and the women have to go back into their box. We need the time for the real stars.

 

Like, the fact that the women have come so far in the last 12 months kind of makes it worse. During the year they can main event PPVs and TV and have 30 minute title matches and stuff. They've shown that they have the workers and the popularity to do it. But they won't even consider building two separate women's issues for Mania. They won't even consider building to some epic, 30 minute title match like the men get. The best they can do is shoehorn them into the same lone title match spot that they always get. But this time, they'll get 15 minutes to work instead of 3.

 

While that sounds like a "WWE showing its true colors about the women", it's clear that none of the women WWE currently has employed saved for maybe Asuka are capable of handling what is needed for a WM main event match. The top four can't even finish a 10 minute TV match without it falling apart multiple times. And these are women that work with each other pretty much exclusively for the past 2-3 years. Do you really trust Bayley to end the show of shows in front of 100K people?

 

The Divas Revolution worked, the Four Horsewomen are all decent-great workers, but every match any of them are involved in can still go completely off the rails any second regardless of opponent. You can't depend on them not to get completely lost and not know how to get back.

 

Too bad Sasha-Bayley from Brooklyn was the best WWE match from the last decade.

[stro]

 

 

 

You're right, of course, but card management is a big problem in general. Is Zayn going to get a singles match? Is Joe? Is Braun? Is Harper? We did just have a Smackdown PPV with 3 women's matches, right? Mania's tough because all of the bullshit. They've never figured out a way around it. I think, personally, I'd much rather have a Wrestlemania VII with a lot of fun little showcase matches than a bunch of 25 minute "epics." I know I'm not in the majority though.

 

No I get that, and it's tough trying to fit everyone onto Mania, but it's about priorities.

 

The top male wrestlers WILL get top singles matches/title matches/showcase matches at Mania. It's when you get down to the midcard or leftover guys where they'll get thrown into a random undercard match or the battle royal to get them on the show. Jobbers will struggle to make it on.

 

But the top female wrestlers WILL get thrown into their random undercard matches to get them on the show. Everyone below them misses out.

 

The women have kind of made it from the absolute bottom of that Midcard/Throw Them On Somewhere tier to the top of it. That's progress I guess. But they're still ways away from cracking the top tier. They flirted with it by having them main event a B PPV and Raw and stuff (and again I'm not complaining about that kind of progress) but when you get to Mania you see where their REAL priorities lie. And at Mania the clock strikes midnight and the women have to go back into their box. We need the time for the real stars.

 

Like, the fact that the women have come so far in the last 12 months kind of makes it worse. During the year they can main event PPVs and TV and have 30 minute title matches and stuff. They've shown that they have the workers and the popularity to do it. But they won't even consider building two separate women's issues for Mania. They won't even consider building to some epic, 30 minute title match like the men get. The best they can do is shoehorn them into the same lone title match spot that they always get. But this time, they'll get 15 minutes to work instead of 3.

 

While that sounds like a "WWE showing its true colors about the women", it's clear that none of the women WWE currently has employed saved for maybe Asuka are capable of handling what is needed for a WM main event match. The top four can't even finish a 10 minute TV match without it falling apart multiple times. And these are women that work with each other pretty much exclusively for the past 2-3 years. Do you really trust Bayley to end the show of shows in front of 100K people?

 

The Divas Revolution worked, the Four Horsewomen are all decent-great workers, but every match any of them are involved in can still go completely off the rails any second regardless of opponent. You can't depend on them not to get completely lost and not know how to get back.

 

Too bad Sasha-Bayley from Brooklyn was the best WWE match from the last decade.

 

Okay, but what does that have to do with what I said?

 

It was great. It was also extremely sloppy, Bayley got lost multiple times, and it wasn't headlining a 5 hour event in front of 100,000 people. The month after, Bayley/Sasha got to headline an even and it was also a sloppy mess. A few months back, Charlotte and Sasha got to headline an actual PPV and it was a sloppy mess. These Raw main events with Charlotte vs Sasha/Bayley have been sloppy messes that often fall apart completely multiple times per match and get by on pacing and big spots. The WM match last year was a sloppy mess with multiple blown spots.

 

The last thing I'm wanting in the main event of WM is multiple talents who frequently get lost and don't know how to recover and get back on track. As of now, all of the women on the main roster are still those talents, as good as they may be overall or how many good matches they've had.

[Ricky Jackson]

I agree that Hell in a Cell was sloppy at times, but man come on, you're acting like several highly praised, and awesome, matches from the last couple years were as bad as the piss break divas matches from the previous era

[stro]

I'm not at all. What I am saying is that there is still a talent barrier reason why they won't get a main event at WM slot anytime soon that goes beyond "Vince/Dunn/whoever doesn't like women" nonsense. I'm saying the top four are very sloppy and get easily lost and have a hard time getting back on track, and that's nothing something I'd nor I presume Vince McMahon will be willing to actually headline WM. Just like I like Braun a lot, but I don't trust him in the main event of WM at this stage in his career.

 

Some of my favorite WWE matches in the past couple of years have been with the Four Horsewomen, but I also have seen them all crash when the pressure is really on, and that's not the kind of talent you want in the main event at WM.

[Ricky Jackson]

Considering how bad the situation for women as far as being taken seriously was even two years ago, a Mania main event anytime soon is a pretty unrealistic expectation

[stro]

Isn't this what we're talking about? That the women get put in their little box come WM season because Vince doesn't actually see them as stars since he won't put them at or near the top of a WM card (ignoring of course that they got placed over Brock on the card, were front and center in the adverts, had the biggest entrances, and was universally called the match of the night by fans and the announcers)? Not that it could possibly be that the women are not yet at the level where they can be trusted to headline such an event based on their weekly and PPV matches that have frequent flubs and awkward spots or blown finishes. Has to be Vince hates women, of course.

[KawadaSmile]

As much as the current situation says that they are not ready yet for big PPV headlines, this current generation of female wrestlers are showing that they can actually main event things.

 

Sasha, Charlotte and Bayley all have main evented RAW episodes in the past, and their matches were very praised and got the crowd very excited for the action. The HiaC main event, despite the blown table spot, was actually the most memorable match in that card, and the crowd was actually losing their shit over it.

 

Saying that they are not ready for a WM headline, which would be true for the moment, does not take away from the fact that they can headline smalled events and PPVs, which honestly is a major improvement over only 3 years ago. I'm glad that they got this far and I hope that in a few years, this idea of a Women's Title Match headlining WM or Summerslam isn't a farfetched one.

 

 

This "Vince hates women" narrative is a bit shoddy right now when you actually see how they are actually portrayed. Hates them so much he's giving them the main event of Raw and an actual PPV main event.

[stro]

As much as the current situation says that they are not ready yet for big PPV headlines, this current generation of female wrestlers are showing that they can actually main event things.

 

Sasha, Charlotte and Bayley all have main evented RAW episodes in the past, and their matches were very praised and got the crowd very excited for the action. The HiaC main event, despite the blown table spot, was actually the most memorable match in that card, and the crowd was actually losing their shit over it.

 

Saying that they are not ready for a WM headline, which would be true for the moment, does not take away from the fact that they can headline smalled events and PPVs, which honestly is a major improvement over only 3 years ago. I'm glad that they got this far and I hope that in a few years, this idea of a Women's Title Match headlining WM or Summerslam isn't a farfetched one.

 

 

This "Vince hates women" narrative is a bit shoddy right now when you actually see how they are actually portrayed. Hates them so much he's giving them the main event of Raw and an actual PPV main event.

This is basically what I'm saying. The sexism angle that people bring up as why women don't get a chance when they're now getting multiple matches per PPV, main events on Raw and PPV, gimmick matches, heavily pushed in advertising beyond hot women, etc, is ridiculous. The idea of Vince revealing his TRUE feelings on the women wrestlers he pays because Goldberg vs Brock and Undertaker vs Roman are bigger matches than Sasha vs Bayley to him is

 

There are a number of reasons why they aren't there yet, and it's not because they are women or Vince doesn't think they are capable/should be headlining his shows.

[jcmmnx]

I'd rather watch wrestling where the babyface is liked. Every time I see Reigns wrestle he's more hated than the last. They just fed their best monster heel to him, and the fans still hate his guts. It's pathetic watching them fail so miserably to get him cheered. With Cena it was 50/50 and a shit ton of merch being sold. I just don't get why Roman is worth the effort.

[goc]

I'd rather watch wrestling where the babyface is liked. Every time I see Reigns wrestle he's more hated than the last. They just fed their best monster heel to him, and the fans still hate his guts. It's pathetic watching them fail so miserably to get him cheered. With Cena it was 50/50 and a shit ton of merch being sold. I just don't get why Roman is worth the effort.

Cena was really NOT 50/50 until at least a good 2 years into his run as top guy. His very first year on Raw wasn't even close.

 

Reigns is either the #2 or #3 merchandise seller in the company. The problem with Reigns isn't that they won't turn him it's that they took so long to just decide "fuck it, we're going with him" and did that stupid finish at Mania against Lesnar and then had him just waste time in the midcard while Rollins was having one of the worst WWE title runs of all time. They had actually finally figured out what to do with him before he got suspended for Adderall.

[stro]

They figure it out every 3 months, where all you need is to have Roman be king bad ass and beat the shit out of someone while not saying much. It has worked literally every single time they've tried it. And then a week or two later they go back to lame promos that go much longer than they should for him, or he's given a title shot for no reason. Just have him beat people up and be quiet. That's how he got over in the first place. They just brought Goldberg back and can't figure out, "hey, this formula seems to work"?

[Jimmy Redman]

Just to be clear, I never said that Vince hates women or anything remotely conspiratorial like that. The women's division has come a long way in the last 12 months and I'm super happy about it.

 

My issue is with a specific booking decision, with the idea of throwing all of the Raw women into a title match at Mania. I don't like it because it doesn't feel like a natural progression, it feels like a way to shoehorn them all onto the card. They're doing and will do a lot of convoluted stuff that makes little sense to get them all in the match (such as the babyfaces cheating to win here), and a messy four-way seems like a WAY worse idea on paper than a big, focused singles match like Charlotte/Bayley or Sasha/Bayley that they could have been building to for months. The same way they have done with, say, Jericho/Owens.

 

After the progress they have made, after the strides they have made to treat the women's work the same as men's, longer matches, headlining TV, headlining PPVs...after all that, they get to Mania, the biggest show, and all they can think of is "hey just throw them all in a match". It feels a little regressive, like a nod back to where we were two years ago and earlier. It's a reminder that while they've come a long way, there's still a long way to go too. Which is exactly what I said in the first place.

 

I never mentioned main eventing Mania either, but since it came up, yes it is a big bar to clear, the biggest in fact, but it still has to be the goal. Don't forget that after last Mania everyone was going nuts about the women having the best match and being the most over on the show. It didn't seem so far-fetched then. I remember at the time I said I wanted Sasha/Bayley to main event this year, and like, I really wasn't joking. Now of course the scene has simmered down due to booking and general main roster malaise so it hasn't seemed like an option for a while now, but the seed is there.

[WingedEagle]

Just to be clear, I never said that Vince hates women or anything remotely conspiratorial like that. The women's division has come a long way in the last 12 months and I'm super happy about it.

 

My issue is with a specific booking decision, with the idea of throwing all of the Raw women into a title match at Mania. I don't like it because it doesn't feel like a natural progression, it feels like a way to shoehorn them all onto the card. They're doing and will do a lot of convoluted stuff that makes little sense to get them all in the match (such as the babyfaces cheating to win here), and a messy four-way seems like a WAY worse idea on paper than a big, focused singles match like Charlotte/Bayley or Sasha/Bayley that they could have been building to for months. The same way they have done with, say, Jericho/Owens.

 

After the progress they have made, after the strides they have made to treat the women's work the same as men's, longer matches, headlining TV, headlining PPVs...after all that, they get to Mania, the biggest show, and all they can think of is "hey just throw them all in a match". It feels a little regressive, like a nod back to where we were two years ago and earlier. It's a reminder that while they've come a long way, there's still a long way to go too. Which is exactly what I said in the first place.

 

I never mentioned main eventing Mania either, but since it came up, yes it is a big bar to clear, the biggest in fact, but it still has to be the goal. Don't forget that after last Mania everyone was going nuts about the women having the best match and being the most over on the show. It didn't seem so far-fetched then. I remember at the time I said I wanted Sasha/Bayley to main event this year, and like, I really wasn't joking. Now of course the scene has simmered down due to booking and general main roster malaise so it hasn't seemed like an option for a while now, but the seed is there.

 

I'm not at all a fan of the four way, but I think it more reflects wanting to get the 4 legitimate female players onto the card rather than simply hit pass on coming up with a creative idea. Post-brand split, the women's roster isn't really deep enough to present that many compelling PPV matches. You could certainly split this up, but between the nostalgia acts, New Day-type segments we'll get this year, musical performances and other filler, its arguably a tighter show than most. In that sense I don't see it as all that different from tossing the guys without a program into a ladder / MITB match.

[stro]

80% of the male roster gets stuck in battle royals or 8 man ladder matches every year. They're being treated like the men, which is what the revolution was about, was it not?

[Loss]

Reigns won the 2015 Royal Rumble. It all goes back to that. He became irredeemable as a top babyface that night.