Who is the greatest booker ever?

[BrianB]

'85-'86 Crockett is some of the best wrestling anywhere in any time period, and Dusty was the man behind it.

 

Sure, and that's the peak run, he also booked the downturn. But are we going to ignore him booking in 1991? 1993? 1992 I guess could be debatable. He was the head booker under Watts, but it sorta feels jarring looking at some of those shows whether Dusty or Watts had more hands over the booking. Was he the booker under Frey too?

 

I haven't seen any of his TNA booking. Did anybody really love that?

[cad]

I feel like Antonio Pena needs to at least be in the team photograph here, even if not at #1. As Bix said on the latest BTS...strictly in terms of booking wrestling--angles, gimmicks, finishes, feuds and payoffs, etc., not promoting or marketing or even running an organization--he may have had an even better mind for the business than Vince. Pena also had a hand in designing costumes and masks for his guys, which I don't think any other booker anywhere can say.

Huh, I was reading this thread and thinking how Peña was more of a McMahonlike candidate, but then a lot of his booking feels overwrought to me. His biggest achievements IMO were making the EMLL easily the number one promotion in the country (largely on the strength of TV) and then creating a promotion from out of nowhere that overnight became bigger than the one he'd just helped build up, and had a different way of doing business than any promotion in Mexico. I don't know that either of these falls under what would traditionally be called booking. No doubt the wrestling programs that he booked helped these things happen, though.

[peachchaos]

Bix's praise for Peña felt like a post in this thread when I listened to it.

 

Here's a list of everyone mentioned so far:

 

Giant Baba

Bill Watts

Paul Heyman

Riki Choshu

Gabe Sapolsky

Chris Kreski

Vince McMahon

Gary Hart

Dusty Rhodes

Mike Quakenbush

Adam Pearce

Jerry Jarrett

Dutch Mantell

Scott D'amore

Eddie Graham

Gedo

Pat Patterson

Antonio Peña

 

Mark Dallas (best current booker?)

[peachchaos]

George Scott deserves a mention for bringing in Johnny Valentine and freshening up the Mid Atlantic territory which had been strictly tag wrestling. Gave the next generation of stars their first chance to shine and took JCP into Canada. Unfortunately we don't get to see much of the really famous stuff.

[peachchaos]

I look at Pat Patterson as more of an agent than a booker. His hallmark is laying out matches and putting together finishes. He does have the Royal Rumble and Iron Man Match concepts, however.

[El-P]

Vince assisted by Patterson / Prichard wrote the WWF TV for years. It's booking.

[El-P]

I haven't seen any of his TNA booking. Did anybody really love that?

 

It was awful. Barely a step above Russo's solo shit, honestly. Just terrible stuff, with Dusty putting himself over in (awful) matches again in the early 00's.

[PeteF3]

 

I feel like Antonio Pena needs to at least be in the team photograph here, even if not at #1. As Bix said on the latest BTS...strictly in terms of booking wrestling--angles, gimmicks, finishes, feuds and payoffs, etc., not promoting or marketing or even running an organization--he may have had an even better mind for the business than Vince. Pena also had a hand in designing costumes and masks for his guys, which I don't think any other booker anywhere can say.

Huh, I was reading this thread and thinking how Peña was more of a McMahonlike candidate, but then a lot of his booking feels overwrought to me. His biggest achievements IMO were making the EMLL easily the number one promotion in the country (largely on the strength of TV) and then creating a promotion from out of nowhere that overnight became bigger than the one he'd just helped build up, and had a different way of doing business than any promotion in Mexico. I don't know that either of these falls under what would traditionally be called booking. No doubt the wrestling programs that he booked helped these things happen, though.

 

 

In my Yearbook viewing I've had a lot of praise for some of the creative AAA finishes in big matches...but now I have to confess that I don't know if Pena booked those specifically or if he had a Pat Patterson with him. "Overwrought" isn't a wrong term in some cases as those finishes did eventually start to get frustrating. Then again, I think some of Riki Choshu's upset booking was him being too clever by half and booking upsets just for shock value, too. No booker is immune from going to the well a little too often.

[ohtani's jacket]

In some cases, I think it's hazy who did the actual booking. I'm fairly certain, for example, that promoters like Baba had other people do the booking. Baba was responsible for the style of wrestling, the promotion's philosophies, and the bigger picture stuff, but I'm sure he had other people doing the booking.

 

Pena's talent was creating gimmicks. He was Russo-like in the sense that his best period as a booker was a mixed product where you had the conservative Juan Herrera pushing the traditional EMLL style and Pena rocking the boat with his new ideas. He was a visionary in terms of his ideas about having EMLL return to television and marketing new stars but his actual booking wasn't that strong. Early on, he relied on shock finishes that went against the grain of traditional lucha and pushing new talent over established veterans, which rubbed the veterans up the wrong way. In AAA, he booked some outstanding programs during the boom period but also a ton of rubbish. I also think it's debatable whether he created a star in AAA that was as successful as Konnan, Octagon or Mascara Sagrada. And it wasn't for lack of trying either.

[Mad Dog]

I keep seeing mentions and detracting from guy's for their later work or ideas totally sucking. I think we need to go to the world of comic books for a few moments here. Let's talk about some of the great creators like Frank Miller and Alan Moore. Two super influential writer and some of their books like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns are hailed as some of the best work ever done in the medium. Okay, now go pick up something Moore or Miller did in the last decade. It's fucking garbage and that's being generous. Now, does the garbage they're currently putting out in any way effect those early works that helped shape how the industry does storytelling? Not really. So I think when looking at a booker, if their highs are super high then we should mostly consider that because the truth of the matter is everyone is going to put out garbage as the get older and lose touch with the audience.

[iamthedoctor]

 

Has anyone booked for longer than Vince McMahon?

 

By all accounts he has lived and breathed booking wrestling 24 hours a day for 30+ years now. His success is insurmountable. While he's had many collaborators over the years, he's always been the Ace booker.

 

WrestleMania. Pay Per View. Monday Night RAW. Hulkamania.

While Vince's success as a booker and a businessman will always be lauded and celebrated, I wonder how much of his legacy will be tarnished by his losers as opposed to his winners. Notable examples include the WrestleMania X debacle, the Triple H reign of terror in the early 00s, the Invasion, etc. I certainly think that even now he still has some fantastic ideas and plans (just look at how hot the Raw main event scene is) but the misses are certainly in large number.

 

 

Wrestlemania X main event was very disapointing. Especially how short it was compared to the previous year between Yoko/Bret. I still think it would have been better if they had pitted a old boys vs new generation storyline where Bret battled Macho Man for the title.

[peachchaos]

Except that 10 was a resounding success and a huge part of that is the closing moments of the show. The match was nothing, but Bret being cemented as the Ace with Owen in the shadows is flawless booking.

[Ricky Jackson]

And the poster already corrected himself that he meant IX not X

[peachchaos]

Yeah, no argument there. 9 was a total stinker.

[Al]

The Wrestlemania X celebration was fine. They were celebrating a new champion, not a great match.

[Ricky Jackson]

I will say that I absolutely hated the finish to the Mania X main at the time, feeling it made it seem that Bret only beat Yoko by fluke. I understand now that they wanted to keep Yoko strong for Taker later in the year, but they still could've booked it so Bret had a more convincing win to start his reign

[Ricky Jackson]

Also, was I the only one whose immediate thought after the finish was that it was going to turn out Taker had caused Yoko to lose his balance and fall through some kind of beyond the grave supernatural bs?

[SmartMark15]

On the argument of Vince's highs vs. Vince's lows, I can't help but think about how different the consequences of his lows are as compared to another booker.

 

Let's compare it to someone like Heyman for example. Heyman's lows towards the end of his ECW run meant that ECW might have gotten a bit stale with its product and didn't have the same roster depth.

 

When Vince McMahon fucks up, he ruins an angle that could have easily sent the company up for years of success moving forward (The Invasion), He sabotages his own company's and workers' chances at success (I love Roman Reigns but it'll be years before he's accepted as a babyface again). He mishandles talent that's gaining steam both critically and financially (Punk). Not to mention all the dogshit on the undercard that's too inconsequential to mention but doesn't help his case either.

 

It's why I have such a hard time granting this to him. The complete dissonance between his highs and his lows make it seem like a lot of luck. And of course I'm not trying to say that Vince McMahon isn't creative or talented at making good wrestling or moments happen but he seems to do it so inconsistently that one wonders how good he can be.

 

I have enjoyed this discussion so far by the way, I love learning about bookers who I've not been too familiar with.

[Jmare007]

Vince is such a great promoter he's the only one that was able to suck as a booker on numerous occasions - botching big angles, wasting potential superstars and creating a good amount of garbage - and not pay the biggest consequences for his mistakes (like pretty much everyone else did). He's so good at promoting that he will always give himself the chance to book something that works no matter how many misses he has.

[Timbo Slice]

Do Don Owen or George Young make the list? What about Misawa with NOAH's rise? The Matsunaga Brothers with AJW?

[conker8]

Don Owen was the promoter, Dutch Savage was the booker during those peak years (1977-1985).

You mean George Scott right ?

[Jmare007]

Do Don Owen or George Young make the list? What about Misawa with NOAH's rise? The Matsunaga Brothers with AJW?

 

Wasn't Akiyama the booker during NOAH's peak and downfall?

[jushin muta liger]

 

 

Do Don Owen or George Young make the list? What about Misawa with NOAH's rise? The Matsunaga Brothers with AJW?

Wasn't Akiyama the booker during NOAH's peak and downfall?

Akiyama was. Misawa oversaw everything but Akiyama was the primary booker.

 

I have no clue who did what when it comes to the Matsunaga Brothers.

[Timbo Slice]

George Scott, yeah. Don't know why I thought Young.

 

I was talking more from NOAH's beginning to the Dome Shows. I thought that was still all Misawa at that point.

[NintendoLogic]

 

 

Do Don Owen or George Young make the list? What about Misawa with NOAH's rise? The Matsunaga Brothers with AJW?

Wasn't Akiyama the booker during NOAH's peak and downfall?

Akiyama was. Misawa oversaw everything but Akiyama was the primary booker.

 

I have no clue who did what when it comes to the Matsunaga Brothers.

 

 

The brothers would switch around the formal titles they held with the company, but Takashi was the brains behind the operation.