WON HOF 2017

[Bix]

My ballot:

 

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Wild Bull Curry

Sputnik Monroe

Bearcat Wright

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES

Junkyard Dog

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES [Abstain]

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES

Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo

Cien Caras

Karloff Lagarde

Blue Panther

Huracan Ramirez

El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND/PACIFIC/AFRICA CANDIDATES [Abstain]

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE [Abstain]

NON-WRESTLERS

Dave Brown

Jim Crockett Jr.

Jim Crockett Sr.

Jimmy Hart

Jerry Jarrett

---

I've long been a proponent of switching to yes/no/abstain but you know Dave won't go for it because of how set he is on keeping it close to the baseball HOF. But the categorization & 10 vote limit are very much a slog at this point, although less so if someone doesn't vote for lucha candidates.

[...TG]

I've long been a proponent of switching to yes/no/abstain but you know Dave won't go for it because of how set he is on keeping it close to the baseball HOF. But the categorization & 10 vote limit are very much a slog at this point, although less so if someone doesn't vote for lucha candidates.

 

The irony (if that's the right word) is that the usual criticism of the baseball HOF is how the 10-vote limit system is flawed, and a how yes/no system would be much better.

[JNLister]

Should also add that I'd bet at least 95% of voters don't realise there's a difference between "I am abstaining from this category" and "I am not voting for any of the candidates in this category."

[fxnj]

I like the 10 vote limit for the sort of detailed critical analysis it inspires on individual candidates that would likely be lessened if switched to a yes/no format. I have no ballot, so just watching the discussion from the sidines is far more interesting to me than seeing who actually goes in. Making serious comparisons to the baseball hall of fame is silly as Dave's hall of fame holds nowhere near that level of prestige. None of the guys up for discussion are losing sleep over whether or not they get inducted, if they're even aware of it. The whole exercise is little more than an excuse for hardcore fans to get together and think about wrestling history with a critical eye, and the 10 vote format is perfectly adequate for that.

[Ricky Jackson]

5 new inductees announced Weds

[Ricky Jackson]

Not much love for many of the PWO favorites.

 

"Added to the ballot next year: Kenny Omega" Uh oh

[sek69]

The new class is AJ Styles, Minoru Suzuki, Pedro Morales, Mark Lewin, and the Sharpe Brothers.

[Grimmas]

Fuck why do they insist on voting on people during their prime? It's mind boggling.

[Al]

Misioneros fell four votes shy. They need a push to just get them in the HOF already.

[Richeyedwards]

Not much love for many of the PWO favorites.

 

"Added to the ballot next year: Kenny Omega" Uh oh

 

This is going to be fun. Cant wait for some people (not on pwo) to say he shoud get in on work alone because he has objectivly the four best matches of all time, and the extreme backlash against it.

Something Goc, trevor danes, Cheapshot and I all mentioned on twitter was that arn/tully and JJ recived 49% based on one year of work together which seems just silly, without JJ they went three years as a team. Comes across as voting for favorites and not on criteria.

 

I think it may have been cheapshot who said that they got a large amount from wrestlers both retierd and currently active which does make sense as you often hear that they are extremly respected by wrestlers.

 

[Boss Rock]

As far as current NJPW goes and the guys on the ballot, Naito is definitely someone who will have a case in a few years if he remains a top draw and high-level wrestler. And as controversial as Kenny is, he could be another guy in a few years with a better case. Okada will inducted his first year eligible and unless he absolutely tanks from here on out, he will deserve it.

[SteveJRogers]

Fuck why do they insist on voting on people during their prime? It's mind boggling.

Triple H going in while in midst of the Reign of Terror era of 2003-2004 is one of the most absurd HOF selections ever...ANY HOF!

[Boss Rock]

Question about Sangre Chicana. I've only delved into his stuff a bit and I agree he's great but I don't know much about him beyond that. Does he meet any other requirements for the WON HOF besides in-ring work? What's his status as a draw or influence on lucha in general? Is he like a Fujiwara to Japanese wrestling?

[NintendoLogic]

Fuck why do they insist on voting on people during their prime? It's mind boggling.

 

Dave addressed this in the HOF issue. He said that workrate candidates have to go in early because their legacies tend to be forgotten as years go by (he specifically mentioned Kiyoshi Tamura and Red Bastien as victims of this tendency). On the other hand, guys who won lots of titles tend to do better as the years pass. This seems like an inherent issue without a structural fix.

 

Anyway, looking at the lucha candidates, Los Misioneros, Ultimo Guerrero, Villano III, Cien Caras, LA Park, Karloff Lagarde, Dr. Wagner Jr., and Blue Panther all received between 40 and 60 percent of the vote. There seems to be a serious collective action problem with Mexico voters. They need to coalesce around a couple of candidates to break the logjam.

[...TG]

Anyway, looking at the lucha candidates, Los Misioneros, Ultimo Guerrero, Villano III, Cien Caras, LA Park, Karloff Lagarde, Dr. Wagner Jr., and Blue Panther all received between 40 and 60 percent of the vote. There seems to be a serious collective action problem with Mexico voters. They need to coalesce around a couple of candidates to break the logjam.

 

 

I saw someone on twitter with a theory that is more non-Lucha voters tossing a token Lucha guy they recognize on their ballot. Dave probably should tighten up the cross-category rules if that's the case.

[WrestlingPower]

I listened to Dave's WOR and he's not oblivious to most of the talking points around here. He agrees that Lucha is the most heavily stacked category & someone needs to go in to free up some room for someone to stand out. He claims that since the category has so many worthy candidates, "no one stands out". Mexico is also one of the lowest voting pools, not sure what can be done to get more lucha voters. Something is clearly wrong as it seems anyone with any kind of buzz for a couple years in US or Japan goes in really easily but no one from Mexico ever gets in.

 

He also seems to be sensible in thinking Omega & Naito will be better revisited in 5 years. I don't think he realizes that's a good argument for waiting to put people on.

 

I think I kind of agree with Matt Farmer saying that Rick Martel is a marginal candidate and him going in would open it up to like 100 more people being worthy. I thought we had this discussion with Masa Saito. Maybe the Japanese bar is lower now?

 

I would assume Omega goes on under the Japan section.

 

How come the Hardys haven't made it on yet?

 

I have advocated for the yes/no/abstain thing too but at this point I think some of the blame is on the votership. I seriously doubt Dave reviews ballots with a critical eye & ever cuts people out of voting once they get a ballot once. I realize current wrestlers may be skewing things as far as "low information" voters but appreciate the need for the perspective for those in the business to have the influence votes. But just as an example, Vampiro got 16 votes, I doubt he has much influence, so I'd seriously consider not sending a ballot to those 16 people again.

 

I'm not sure about lifting the 10 votes thing. Dave's specific instructions have always been "vote for the 10 best guys", ignoring the math of how that works against other candidates in a region & in relation to the 15/50 rule. But I think he's painted himself into a corner now with all these parameters and isn't very likely at all to change any of them.

[Cox]

I can see the case that Red Bastien may have been hurt by not having gone in the ballot after his prime. But that's because there's no real footage of his available. Nowadays, there is no shortage of available footage for any wrestler who may be added to the ballot in the next 20 years. I suspect that every major, and many minor, AJ Styles match that has taken place over the past 20 years is available in some form. His body of work will be represented 5 or 10 years from now if he were to be added to the ballot later. This is more about Dave's opinion of watching old footage, but moving forward, any voter who wants to watch a wrestler's entire body of work will be able to do so without much issue.

 

I don't think Tamura's issue was that people forgot his legacy, but that not enough people followed his career in the first place. Shoot style candidates have traditionally not fared well unless they have a major Japanese promotion run to pair with it, with Suzuki being an example of this. If Tamura had gone to New Japan at some point, he would have fared much better on the ballot. Same with Volk Han, who probably came closer than any other pure shoot style candidate to making it.

[Al]

"We better rush this guy in before people forget how good he was" seems like an absurd principle to apply to a Hall of Fame. If your body of work is forgotten five years later, either it probably wasn't HOF quality or you need a completely new set of voters.

 

The problem though is that if you change the format (let's say five years later), you then have five years with no new modern candidates hitting the ballot. That's a tough pill when a Hall of Fame by nature needs fresh discussion to thrive.

[NintendoLogic]

I saw someone on twitter with a theory that is more non-Lucha voters tossing a token Lucha guy they recognize on their ballot. Dave probably should tighten up the cross-category rules if that's the case.

 

I had considered this as well, and it makes me curious as to how one is deemed qualified to vote in a particular region. Is it purely on the honor system?

 

I can see the case that Red Bastien may have been hurt by not having gone in the ballot after his prime. But that's because there's no real footage of his available. Nowadays, there is no shortage of available footage for any wrestler who may be added to the ballot in the next 20 years. I suspect that every major, and many minor, AJ Styles match that has taken place over the past 20 years is available in some form. His body of work will be represented 5 or 10 years from now if he were to be added to the ballot later. This is more about Dave's opinion of watching old footage, but moving forward, any voter who wants to watch a wrestler's entire body of work will be able to do so without much issue.

 

I don't think Tamura's issue was that people forgot his legacy, but that not enough people followed his career in the first place. Shoot style candidates have traditionally not fared well unless they have a major Japanese promotion run to pair with it, with Suzuki being an example of this. If Tamura had gone to New Japan at some point, he would have fared much better on the ballot. Same with Volk Han, who probably came closer than any other pure shoot style candidate to making it.

 

But someone who watches 2017 AJ Styles matches for the first time in 2037 is going to have a completely different perspective than someone who watched them in 2017. And I don't dispute the value of rewatching and reevaluating old footage as a fan, but I do think it's kind of silly to say that someone can't be considered a great worker unless their matches hold up 20 years after they've retired. As for Tamura, it's not like he was a complete nobody. He was voted Best Technical Wrestler by Observer readers in 1998.

[Cox]

"We better rush this guy in before people forget how good he was" seems like an absurd principle to apply to a Hall of Fame. If your body of work is forgotten five years later, either it probably wasn't HOF quality or you need a completely new set of voters.

 

The problem though is that if you change the format (let's say five years later), you then have five years with no new modern candidates hitting the ballot. That's a tough pill when a Hall of Fame by nature needs fresh discussion to thrive.

 

The WON HOF ballot had 74 wrestlers and 15 non-wrestlers this year. Even with 5 acts being voted in, 6 acts falling off the ballot, and a relatively light 2 wrestlers being added next year, that's still 66 wrestlers and 14 non-wrestlers to vote on next year. I think we can go a few years without adding anybody new to the ballot and have no shortage of discussion.

 

 

I saw someone on twitter with a theory that is more non-Lucha voters tossing a token Lucha guy they recognize on their ballot. Dave probably should tighten up the cross-category rules if that's the case.

 

I had considered this as well, and it makes me curious as to how one is deemed qualified to vote in a particular region. Is it purely on the honor system?

 

I can see the case that Red Bastien may have been hurt by not having gone in the ballot after his prime. But that's because there's no real footage of his available. Nowadays, there is no shortage of available footage for any wrestler who may be added to the ballot in the next 20 years. I suspect that every major, and many minor, AJ Styles match that has taken place over the past 20 years is available in some form. His body of work will be represented 5 or 10 years from now if he were to be added to the ballot later. This is more about Dave's opinion of watching old footage, but moving forward, any voter who wants to watch a wrestler's entire body of work will be able to do so without much issue.

 

I don't think Tamura's issue was that people forgot his legacy, but that not enough people followed his career in the first place. Shoot style candidates have traditionally not fared well unless they have a major Japanese promotion run to pair with it, with Suzuki being an example of this. If Tamura had gone to New Japan at some point, he would have fared much better on the ballot. Same with Volk Han, who probably came closer than any other pure shoot style candidate to making it.

 

But someone who watches 2017 AJ Styles matches for the first time in 2037 is going to have a completely different perspective than someone who watched them in 2017. And I don't dispute the value of rewatching and reevaluating old footage as a fan, but I do think it's kind of silly to say that someone can't be considered a great worker unless their matches hold up 20 years after they've retired. As for Tamura, it's not like he was a complete nobody. He was voted Best Technical Wrestler by Observer readers in 1998.

 

 

I have always supported the 45/25 rule with the HOF (45 years old or 25 years after their debut). This is not so long after their debut to where their body of work has been forgotten, but long enough to where we have an idea of how much of their body of work had some sort of lasting impact or legacy. AJ getting on the ballot five years from now would have been perfect, because we would have some perspective on his career after his WWE run and we would see if that had any lasting impact.

[Dylan Waco]

I have no major problem with this years class, though I don't think Suzuki is a particularly good candidate, and it seems pretty clear that Dave's public endorsement of his candidacy is the reason he got in

[sek69]

I have no major problem with this years class, though I don't think Suzuki is a particularly good candidate, and it seems pretty clear that Dave's public endorsement of his candidacy is the reason he got in

 

I think Suzuki is just another example of the voter's fetish for guys with "real fighter" cred even if most of his famous fights may have been worked to some degree or another.

 

Also I was shocked at Lewin if for no other reason I didn't think we'd ever see anyone get in mainly based on Australia credentials. I figured it would be next to impossible for anyone to get in from the "Miscellaneous" category.

[Dylan Waco]

Lewin finishes second among historians. A huge number of people who voted for him were probably voters like me who felt he was one of the strongest people on the ballot, but thought he was in a dumb region. I didn't vote for him because of the region he was in, but I'm guessing many voters just said fuck it and pulled the trigger anyhow.

 

On Suzuki I don't doubt that the shoot cred helps him, but if you look at the specifics I think it's a near certainty that he got a "Dave says he's a good candidate so I'm voting for him" bump. Dave usually doesn't explicitly release a ballot in advance, he did this year, and it's my understanding he made a case for Suzuki in the process. If you look at Suzuki's totals he finished first among reporters, and didn't really place in either of the other voter categories (IIRC he wasn't even in the top 30 among either sub-group of wrestlers). Based on what is known he more than any other candidate was carried almost entirely by one portion of the electorate. I'm of the opinion (and always have been) that the reporter category is the category that is most likely to be influenced by Dave's thinking, though I admit that can't be proven.

 

In general I suspect that Dave's public ballot helped Pedro and The Sharpes get over the hurdle as well, but they were close to induction anyhow.

Suzuki jumped 25%. If you follow New Japan, it's really hard to see what happened with him in that promotion this year that would merit that kind of leap. While I LOVE the G1 match with Okada, the earlier Okada title match was widely panned even by NJPW hardcore fans (to be fair the match was polarizing, but usually NJPW hardcores are pretty unanimous in their praise of NJPW main events), and the lumberjack match main event v. Elgin a few months back is generally thought of as one of the worst - if not THE absolute worst - NJPW main event of the Bushi Road era. The angle where Suzuki Gun returned this year was a hot one, but I'm not buying the idea that voters were deeply enamored with that.

 

Regardless of whether or not you think Suzuki belongs in or not his induction is very likely "Takahashi sold out the Tokyo Dome numerous times!" 2.0

[Matt D]

I'm annoyed that Lewin wasn't helped or hurt by the Houston footage probably (out of region anyway I guess). He had one of the best face turns I've come across in years in that footage, one legitimately great Terry Funk match, a few fun grumpy old man babyface performances, and lots of stinkers as a heel.

[shoe]

I voted Lewin last year. This year I didnt vote for him because of the cat he was in.