Roman Reigns as the ace post-Wrestlemania

[Coffey]

Was that whole "historically, all Samoans are only successful when booked as heels" talking point taken verbatim from Court Bauer? Because I know I've heard him repeat on no less than three podcasts since Mania.

 

Either way, it's silly & simply untrue.

 

That's not what I said. And no. I can think for myself.

[SomethingSavage]

I've said numerous times in this thread alone. My biggest issue with this match is they killed far more interesting storylines over the course of the year because they were only interested in this match. Lesnar/Joe was great and they glossed over it because it wasn't Lesnar/Reigns. Same with Braun/Lesnar. I would much rather have seen either of those feuds, which were far hotter as well, get more fleshed out and get better matches out of it. But instead those guys had to get cut off at the knees and job to 1 F5 so Reigns could kick out of 800 of them.

 

Reigns is whatever to me. I'm generally apathetic to him but the fact that he in storyline never earns anything really annoys the shit out of me. He can fail as much as he wants to and there will always be some BS avenue for him to get back to that title match. And if that BS avenue doesn't exist he'll just declare he's getting a shot at the title and it will be so.

I see what you mean, but it's ultimately irrelevant. All roads were going to lead to the same spot. They've insisted on keeping Brock on top, and that's that.

 

Brock was still going to be absent and a non-factor on television for such large gaps. What were they gonna do? Have Braun or Joe go our their and deliver 20 minutes of one-sided dialogue for months on end? That accomplishes nothing, and suddenly those once white hot feuds feel like they're dragging on pointlessly with no definitive purpose. There's no winner in that scenario. It benefits no one.

 

It might make for a fresher feud, a better buildup, or more star ratings when they finally *do* get around to delivering one of those alternate Mania matches - but that's it.

 

In the end, the only difference is that the same people would be lodging similar complaints - only it'd be about Braun or Joe eating the Mania loss instead of Reigns.

[Mad Dog]

The problem is they need to do something different.

 

I often talk on another group how if I had the book for Smackdown that I would put the World Title on Big E. I would turn him heel and I wouldn't have New Day turn on him. I would put the World Title on Big E and he would still be a member of New Day. It shows how deeply in a rut the booking has been that such a simple idea seems so radical within the current WWE landscape.

 

With Braun, why can't you just do what you've been doing with him except he has the Universal Title on his shoulder while doing it? Why does the setup have to change? Why couldn't Joe have choked out Lesnar at Summerslam and lost it back to him at Survivor Series with a few title defenses between? There's a lot of places they could go with their top programs if they were willing to break up their formula even a little bit.

[SomethingSavage]

 

Was that whole "historically, all Samoans are only successful when booked as heels" talking point taken verbatim from Court Bauer? Because I know I've heard him repeat on no less than three podcasts since Mania.

Either way, it's silly & simply untrue.

 

That's not what I said. And no. I can think for myself.

I know what you said. I read it.

 

I can read for myself.

 

You suggested that all Samoans were better & more successful as heels. That's almost verbatim what Bauer offered up - numerous times - over the course of the oast few weeks. It was almost word for word, which is why I asked if that's where it came from. I asked. I didn't accuse. But anyone on earth that heard the audio would likely draw the same conclusion. It's odd. That's all.

 

And hey. I'm in the same camp as a lot of others. I'd love to see a genuine Roman heel run. It's something I wanted to see against AJ. Then again with Seth's return. And again with Braun. Then again with Taker. And maybe later with Cena. But really, it just seems like they've dug their heels in on the issue, so it is what it is.

 

Reigns would certainly feel fresher and hotter as a heel act right now. But suggesting that he'd be more successful as a heel due to his heritage and bloodline? That's reaching, and it's a really odd talking point in the first place. Like, no one is suggesting that Shelton Benjamin should be a top baby face because it worked for the Junkyard Dog.

 

 

It's that line of thinking that had them convinced that Del Rio would automatically be the next Eddie Guerrero, or Sin Cara could just slide in as the new Rey.

 

It's just a weird stance. I mean, OF COURSE Reigns would be better as a heel right now. But it's due to circumstances and booking. It's got nothing to do with his heritage.

 

And Roman ain't no Rock - no matter how many people fantasy book him to be cut from the same exact cloth.

[SomethingSavage]

The problem is they need to do something different.

 

I often talk on another group how if I had the book for Smackdown that I would put the World Title on Big E. I would turn him heel and I wouldn't have New Day turn on him. I would put the World Title on Big E and he would still be a member of New Day. It shows how deeply in a rut the booking has been that such a simple idea seems so radical within the current WWE landscape.

 

With Braun, why can't you just do what you've been doing with him except he has the Universal Title on his shoulder while doing it? Why does the setup have to change? Why couldn't Joe have choked out Lesnar at Summerslam and lost it back to him at Survivor Series with a few title defenses between? There's a lot of places they could go with their top programs if they were willing to break up their formula even a little bit.

Oh. I absolutely agree.

 

But that was kinda my point. The issue is with the formula and their insistence on keeping Brock on top.

 

Everything you suggested there sounds so revitalizing for the product, but my point was that they were never gonna go there with Braun or Joe. That's all.

 

I'm with you though. I was all in on that Joe/Brock feud last summer. By the time the Braun match rolled around, I was a little less optimistic - but I was still hopeful they'd pull the trigger.

 

Once Rumble rolled around - hell, even way back at Survivor Series - I was dialed out and really apathetic toward anything they were gonna go with Brock anymore.

[Mad Dog]

It just amazes me they won't change. They let Lesnar and Joe get a little off the formula and the crowds were super into it. You would think that would encourage them to change things up a little bit.

[NintendoLogic]

 

Cherry-picking a handful of counterexamples does not disprove the overall point.

 

What are the actual example examples?

 

 

Plenty. Andre. Big John Studd. Jerry Blackwell. Barry Windham. Also, all the guys you mentioned had multiple extended injury layoffs.

 

Anyway, count me among those who continue to be baffled by Roman's booking. He's booked just strong enough to engender resentment among fans who don't like him but not enough to send the message that they need to shut up and deal with it. It's the worst of both worlds.

[gordi]

What kills me about the booking is this: Even though Roman seems to be pretty widely hated and even though it seems like the average fan would rather not see Roman as champ... WWE managed to book it so that NOBODY is happy about Roman losing to Brock. It's like the goal is to send everyone home disappointed. The closest things to a positive reaction I have seen, anywhere, are either: "I think maybe it was kind of a little better than the WM match, " "Just put the belt on him and get it over with already," or "...at least they kept it short."

 

The "broken controller" finisher spamming style that Roman and Brock are working just absolutely cracks me up. It's hard to imagine two more gifted athletes and experienced pro wrestlers working a worse match.

 

WWE would definitely be best served by moving Roman on to something else for a good long while and going in literally any other direction with Brock. (and I mean literally. Brock vs Dolf or Brock vs Mojo would be more interesting to me than another chapter of Brock vs Roman at this point).

 

Roman is obviously a talented guy with a great look but it is going to take some time to get this stink off of him.

[Loss]

I halfway expect yet another try at WM35, which is just asinine.

[gordi]

I halfway expect yet another try at WM35, which is just asinine.

 

At this point, I am honestly doubtful that a year will be enough time to get the stink off.

[Loss]

He's done. But hey, John Cena was booed too I guess, and apparently they see the lesson from that as that this means it's working. We actually hear arguments that cheered wrestlers like Daniel Bryan and Rusev aren't over. The world is an interesting place.

[gordi]

The world is an interesting place.

 

"There is a Chinese curse which says 'May he live in interesting times.'" - John Kennedy, Cape Town, June 1966

[Stiva]

Reigns honestly needs to be off TV for a good while. Beating Joe is going to do him no favours, on top of the terrible booking he's been subjected to. Keep him off TV until after Summerslam (where Lashley may win the belt), have him return in a way that makes people pop for him and hope that he's kept away from the sabotage that's, seemingly, always assaulting him.

[Loss]

Ideas of pushes and burials in WWE are often humorous to me. Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn are supposedly in the doghouse and spend the next several months as the top heels on Smackdown, with Zayn getting the biggest push of his career. Reigns is the one that Vince supposedly loves and sees as The Guy and he's constantly booked horribly. What gives?

[shodate]

 

I halfway expect yet another try at WM35, which is just asinine.

 

At this point, I am honestly doubtful that a year will be enough time to get the stink off.

 

what stink simply put brock is bigger draw tha roman could ever be so it makes sense ot have the belt on him as long as possible

 

explain what stink

[Strummer]

It's weird because for the last couple years wwe made it known, publicly, that they didn't care if Reigns was being booed. Yet all of a sudden Vince is freaked out by crowd reactions again. I.E. not having him win at mania because he knew the crowd would shit on it. So yeah which is it? Do crowd reactions matter or not? Why now and not two years ago?

[Victator]

If you look over Reigns TV record since the Taker match, he has lost more than won. The times he wins are very screwy because they know it will be shit on. So this is nothing new. I think at this point it comes down to a 72 year old man refusing to admit he is wrong.

I think everyone else sees Braun as the future. That is why they did that crap with the kid at Mania and he won the Saudi Rumble. They are trying to put him over as number one any place they can without getting him near Reigns.

Which unfortunately they work best together. Braun has his best matches and people care about Roman. Separate they are diminished.

[Victator]

 

 

I halfway expect yet another try at WM35, which is just asinine.

 

At this point, I am honestly doubtful that a year will be enough time to get the stink off.

 

what stink simply put brock is bigger draw tha roman could ever be so it makes sense ot have the belt on him as long as possible

 

explain what stink

 

Reigns and Brock are getting apathy from the crowds. Nobody cares what they do together, good or bad.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

It's weird because for the last couple years wwe made it known, publicly, that they didn't care if Reigns was being booed. Yet all of a sudden Vince is freaked out by crowd reactions again. I.E. not having him win at mania because he knew the crowd would shit on it. So yeah which is it? Do crowd reactions matter or not? Why now and not two years ago?

I’m just making an assumption here but I don’t think it changed because of reactions, because I don’t think he does care. I think he just cooled off on Roman for the time being. A big part of that whole narrative was that they were going to switch the belt in Saudi Arabia and they didn’t do that, which makes me doubt the whole story.

 

Obviously, it’s a whole different can of worms when you think about the build to Mania and why you would possibly do what they did if the end game wasn’t Roman walking out with the belt.

[Sean Liska]

What do you guys think of my conspiracy theory that Vince is intentionally building around Brock and Rousey to screw with UFC as they're both on the market for new TV deals?

[Seabs]

How does that affect UFC?

[MoS]

I do not really understand what their end-game with this constant carpet-pulling is. What happens next? Reigns claims he got screwed because he won the match and thus he gets another title shot whenever Brock wrestles next? The title is stripped from Brock because of the controversy? The finish is reviewed or whatever and Roman is awarded the championship? Because all of them are distinct heel scenarios and I fail to see how doing any of them would help Roman.

[SomethingSavage]

The losses aren't helping of course, but Roman still suffers from the same ailment as the rest of the roster. His character simply never evolves.

 

He hasn't changed one thing since the Shield went babyface back in 2014. Hell, the argument could be made that he hasn't changed at all since debuting.

 

It's pretty much the problem fans have had with Cena for a long time. The last time his character underwent any significant change, it was when they stripped away the rapper gimmick way back in late '05. I know people were constantly crying out, campaigning, and fantasy booking for a John Cena heel turn every other month - but really, it comes down to an evolution of the character at any level. That could have been enough.

 

It's what propelled so many people toward WCW in the Monday Night Wars. OF COURSE there were other factors involved, but make no mistake - a lot of folks (yours truly included) were tuning in to see their childhood heroes & favorites undergo a completely fresh & new evolution of their characters. Hogan was turning to the dark side. Miss Elizabeth was a cougar. And on & on.

 

On the other side of the fence, the same thing kick-started "attitude" over in the Federation. Bret became this bitter, whiny sore loser. A huge part of the appeal in his heel turn was in watching that fall from grace, while simultaneously still nodding in agreement with a handful of the things he said.

There are plenty of things to pick apart about the WWE on-screen product, and so many of them feel stale and sterile. But I can deal with arenas that all look alike. I can get past LED boards, excessive padding on ring posts, barricades, or you name it. But none of those things affect the product as much as this lack of character evolution. It hurts & hinders their progress at every level, from every angle.

Whether it's a full-blown heel turn or something more subtle, that's all in the details. But there needs to be some sense of stakes. Some consequences to the actions of these individuals. Otherwise, they're just play fighting to fill time every week. And, at that rate, why would anyone bother watching? Out of habit? Out of obligation? I don't know.

 

But these characters need to be allowed to evolve and grow. They need to change over the course of some of these major, significant wins & losses. They need to endure, to succeed, and to fail. Right now, they all simply exist as built-in video game characters or some shit. They just plug & play every week. And then the next week, maybe the players get mixed up and moved around, but it's all the same.

 

No evolution. No character development. No growth. No sense of story-driven purpose. It's just all so POINTLESS when you sit back & take a look at it.

 

It's like every week is Chapter 1 of the same book. You read it, but then you're never allowed to reach Chapter 2 to find out what happens to your favorite characters next. Instead, you just shut the book and start back at Page 1 of Chapter 1 all over again next week. And the next. And the next.

 

There's no progression to these people or their stories, which is why I basically drop in to catch a couple of matches from every PPV card or every other big event and feel like I haven't missed a single episode of their television.

[The Thread Killer]

I understand why some of you think Reigns is pretty much ruined as a character right now, and for the most part I agree with you. However, I do think he would be fairly easy to salvage with a reboot. And there are obviously people who work for WWE right now who are capable of pulling such a reboot off. For proof of this theory, I submit the case of Andrade Cien Almas.

 

I remember in early 2016 when it was announced that La Sombra had signed with NXT, a lot of people were excited. I assume that was based on his work in CMLL and New Japan, which I did not personally see. But based on his reputation, I was intrigued to see him. They unmasked him, which I didn't see as a big deal, since we know that (aside from Rey) WWE doesn't really like masked wrestlers. He finally made his debut in June 2016, and I think it is safe to say the consensus was that his debut was disappointing. Whatever the "it factor" is, Almas did not seem to have it. It became to obvious to everybody that he wasn't getting over, so by the fall they turned him heel, but that didn't really seem to help him much either. He pretty much floundered in NXT from the fall of 2016 all the way until the Spring/Summer of 2017.

 

If I remember correctly, Zelina Vega made her first appearance in July 2017 and then he was taken off the air for about a month. When Andrade Cien Almas returned with Zelina Vega as his manager in August 2017, that is when he became the Almas that we all know and love now. But if you look at the dates, he pretty much floundered in NXT for over a year. He was so unremarkable that I remember Triple H making reference to the fact that he wasn't adapting well to the NXT/WWE style in an interview, and they actually made his mediocre, underwhelming and disappointing performance part of his gimmick. They had the announcers referencing the fact that he had come into NXT with high hopes but had failed to impress.

 

Look at him now. Almas has been involved in two legit MOTYC's so far in 2018 and his pairing with Vega is viewed by most as not only being a highlight, but a refreshing change to the entire dated wrestler/valet dynamic. Look at their performance during his match with Aleistar Black at the most recent Takeover. This from a guy that a year prior had been struggling in a feud with No Way Jose. My point is, somebody in NXT saw the problem, identified it, and came up with a plan to change it. They saw that Almas had all the raw materials, but wasn't getting over as he was being presented. They pulled him back, tweaked his character, repackaged him and sent him back out there - and it worked. There is no doubt whatsoever that it worked. Anybody who has seen Almas with Vega perform since last summer can't possibly confuse him with uninspired guy who was working the NXT undercards in the Winter of 2017. All this, and Almas doesn't even speak English well.

 

(By the way - I say all this about Almas, being fully aware of the fact that now he has been "called up" to the main roster, whoever is in charge of making creative decisions about him either probably didn't see what made him succeed in NXT, or won't care. They'll give him a "main roster" makeover, I'm sure. He'll likely be presented as a babyface, feuding with Shelton Benjamin, and split up from Vega in less than six months.)

 

If WWE has the resources and tools to reboot and repackage a guy like Almas, who can't even really deliver a solid promo - what could they do with Reigns, who has all the tools? His work is solid in most cases, to very good - depending on the quality of his opponent. (And assuming he can be taught to stop repeatedly making that ridiculous motion like he's "loading" his arm before using his stupid Superman punch that he does way too often.) His promos are decent, and serviceable, if unremarkable. With some changes and a couple of weeks off television, he could easily be salvaged.

 

They could shave his head. They could take the stupid plastic Kevlar vest off him. They could put him in tights. They could give him a manager or valet. They could make him go silent and stop delivering promos altogether. They could get rid of his theme music, which at this point makes people boo automatically like Pavlov's dogs. Hell, they could modify or change his name. They could do any number of things to change him and represent him, and then make him a top guy again. Let's remember, this is a company that successfully took one half of the APA who was midcard at best, put an entirely new gimmick on him and made him the WWE Champion in a very quick turnaround.

 

My point is Roman Reigns could easily still be a top guy and there is obviously somebody in WWE who knows how to do something like that, because they did it (albeit on a much smaller scale) with Almas. Hell, they might be in the process of doing the exact same thing with Nakamura as we speak. It can be done, I just don't know if it will be done. I don't know if they have the will to do it. Also, if rumors are to be believed, Vince himself books Reigns. I doubt it was Vince who repackaged Almas or Nakamura. Vince seems to be getting more and more oblivious and more and more stubborn with age. I don't know if his attitude is becoming "if they won't accept him as I present him, then they won't accept him at all."

 

I've never liked the tried and true WWE talking point about their best characters being "themselves with the volume turned up to 10." I've heard Stone Cold, The Rock, and Triple H claim that in interviews and it has to be a WWE created buzz-phrase. But if there is even a shred of truth to it, I don't think they've applied to it to Roman Reigns. I don't think the character he portrays on television is close to the guy he is in "real life." I think he is probably an alpha male type, sure. But I don't think he is much of a talker and them putting him out there and having him spout off ridiculous catch phrases like "I'm THE guy" is doing him any favors. If they aren't going to let him be him, then they need to do a much better job of finding a character that he can portray convincingly. If they do that, I think he can still be presented as a top guy. Maybe even "the" guy. But not the way they are doing it now, and I don't know if they even see what needs to be done to change things.

[Loss]

It seems to me like wrestling did well for a long time without character evolution. Ric Flair never changed. Dusty Rhodes never changed. Randy Savage changed his ring attire and look, but not really his madman persona. Roddy Piper never changed. The Road Warriors never changed. I don't want to write off the point because I think there's something to it. It's how Chris Jericho has stayed relevant. It played a role in Daniel Bryan getting over. It revitalized Matt Hardy. But why didn't it matter in the past? I think the bigger creative issues are wins and losses, who gets pushed and who doesn't, and the obsession with size. Whether everyone on both sides fully realizes it, this is a battle between a fanbase that wants full control over creative decisions and a promoter who still feels, rightfully so in some ways, that it's up to him to manipulate his audience into wanting to see what he plans to present. The truth is somewhere in the middle.