Most Overrated 5 Star Matches

[Johnny Sorrow]

hart vs austin

it was far to brawl driven fir a submission match if it booked as an i quit match i would still think it was overrated but not as so its only three at best of that in the current form lys get knocked now for the overall lack of mat work in a submisson match

 

i first watched in 2007 i read i was a submission matched i always was though hart was a technical guy on a level of a Han, Fujiwara or a maestro but this match showed me thst was not true and austin as shit too.

 

even if this was booked as an i quit match i would say it not as good as Flair vs Funk

Wow. You really stink at this. You are feeling the pressure that everyone knows youre either a phony or a mental patient, and youre being ignored, and this has led you to to try and get a response by shitting on Austin vs Bret. I do appreciate you mentioning Han, I admire the consistency.

[Johnny Sorrow]

 

Yeah, it was awesome. The only shitty part was that they zip tied the seats together, and I was sitting between two giant, sweaty, fat, smelly dudes. I was squished between them.

What?! Two giant, sweaty, fat, smelly dudes? At a Ring of Honor show? Well now I know you're lying. That hardly seems possible.

 

Next thing you'll be claiming they had neckbeards or something.

The best part was Rev Ray and I think Pete from DVDVR were sitting behind me laughing at my situation. It was like being squashed between Earthquake and Typhoon if they hadnt used deodorant ever.

[shodate]

 

hart vs austin

it was far to brawl driven fir a submission match if it booked as an i quit match i would still think it was overrated but not as so its only three at best of that in the current form lys get knocked now for the overall lack of mat work in a submisson match

 

i first watched in 2007 i read i was a submission matched i always was though hart was a technical guy on a level of a Han, Fujiwara or a maestro but this match showed me thst was not true and austin as shit too.

 

even if this was booked as an i quit match i would say it not as good as Flair vs Funk

Wow. You really stink at this. You are feeling the pressure that everyone knows youre either a phony or a mental patient, and youre being ignored, and this has led you to to try and get a response by shitting on Austin vs Bret. I do appreciate you mentioning Han, I admire the consistency.

 

what im not allowed the have my view on a match and its a legit view to have since it is submission match with no to very little mat work in it it was a good brawl but that was not what i was expecting from a submission match it would by a solid **** if it was an I| quit match but it was not i judge matches in a vacuum i cae not about moments oh the double turn that booking not match quilty bookers book workers work.

 

what you do not like me talking about a sacred cow match

 

i have my isuues with alot of dave's ratings and lack thereof in some cases like his baisef against llpw and modern joshi, as a rule, people say he has a Japan bais fir wrestling belong a global art from the coverage of not us stuff is very low let alone is MMA coverage and it not hard to get Asian MMA shows [ hell Pancrase is even on the ufc service*

] if your mma journalist you need ot cover these shows promotions like OFC Pancrase etc among others there is alot left be desired

 

i would say it would be soccer Journalist not know who a club like M Utd is

* i only know about Pancrase being on the ufc service because there is this guy in yt who reviews old Pancrase and he said it is there

 

back the bias argument I do not think he has any my ratings system has biases yes but i will admit if some is a good worker in their style even if dislike that style as i said up before about the dragon gate match

[El-P]

"I quit match" stipulation don't demand submission matwork. The greatest I Quit match, and one of the very few match I would rate 5 stars, is Magnum TA vs Tully Blanchard.

[shodate]

Flair vs. Steamboat 2/20/1989

Never got this one. Just feels like them running through their shtick in front of a hot crowd without really much of a hook behind it. Entertaining but ***** and better than Clash VI? Hell no.

 

Cena vs. Punk 7/17/2011

I think this is a case of people confusing a match's build with the actual match. Punk's pipebomb promo was amazing, but the match itself never really stuck out to me and was sloppy at points. Finish was great, though.

 

Okada vs. Shibata 4/9/2017

Limbwork that goes nowhere, dull strike exchanges, and it's too damn long. Also the story doesn't really make a whole lot of sense with Shibata dominating Okada the whole match just to fall to the rainmaker like he's just another guy.

 

Okada vs. Omega 6/11/2017

Actually haven't seen this one in full, but I'm listing it anyway because the first 30 minutes bored the hell out of me to the point that I just shut the match off with no interest in watching further.

correct if wrong

did not all four flair vs steamboat matches that are on tape one being a fan cam get ***** from dave just asking

[shodate]

"I quit match" stipulation don't demand submission matwork. The greatest I Quit match, and one of the very few match I would rate 5 stars, is Magnum TA vs Tully Blanchard.

that is wjat i mean if it was I quit I would not be so harsh on how brawl hevey the match was in fact if it was and i quit it i would have rated it a solid **** not while flair funk and tully magnum are just above that **** 3/4 both for me but i would not say there overrated if anyone would say there ***** for me if it over 1/2 star difference between me qand others

 

my rating for austin vs hart is around 63% [ based on the submission match idea] it would be aorund 20% better if it was a quit while the other two mentioned I quit matches are in and around 93-96% rated imo rating by star is new to me i always rated by % ranges but i converted to stars to make it easier for people to get to my system

[El-P]

To me it's a matter of poor semantics only. Turn "submission" into "I quit" with the same match move per move, and Austin vs Hart doesn't have the issue of "well, they really don't try to submit each other" that can be a valid criticism because of the gimmick name only. But as it is, the match still is a classic to me.

[Laz]

I think Hart/Austin and Punk/Cena are examples of why wrestling doesn't work in a vacuum. Those matches exemplified the stories heading into them so perfectly that they're worthy of the full 5.

 

I digress from Dave a ton. I wouldn't give any Misawa singles I've seen 5*, for example, because of my issues with Misawa's work in general. I also don't think the Joe/Punk series in ROH, which was the first US match to get 5* from Dave since Hart/Austin, gave me anything close to perfection since their two long bouts were HEADLOCK HEADLOCK HEADLOCK and sure, it fits the story perfectly, but 60 minutes of headlocks isn't what I call quality pro wrestling.

 

That's not even getting into the 6* nonsense. Like TTK, I think Omega's facial reactions are ridiculous for such a "serious" talent (they were fine when he worked DDT and PWG a bunch), Okada struggles to make anything but the finishing stretch matter, and even the idea of extending the scale screams more "let's get Twitter heat" than it does "seriously this is that much better."

 

But I've also never taken Dave's snowflakes to mean a whole lot. He's like Peter Travers, calling everything competently made an instant classic.

[Cap]

Hart/Austin is a genuine classic to me. I rewatched it before Mania this year and it is still probably my favorite WWE match ever (at least top 3). I actually think you don't need too much context for that match to really come off as elite. That also is a little less of an issue for me in the modern era where we get nice concise video packages that summarize the build.

 

However, I forgot he gave the Bret/Owen cage match the full 5. I would say that is at least among the matches where there is the biggest divide between Dave's ratings and my own.

 

Punk/Cena is an interesting one for me. It is an example of how there is more than one way to skin a cat. The ring work is just ok and I find Vince's part really eye rolly.... but it is really hard for me to detach everything that went into the match from the match itself. I don't have it as 5, but I have it as 4.75.

[shodate]

To me it's a matter of poor semantics only. Turn "submission" into "I quit" with the same match move per move, and Austin vs Hart doesn't have the issue of "well, they really don't try to submit each other" that can be a valid criticism because of the gimmick name only. But as it is, the match still is a classic to me.

not in the context i look at it a submission match should have of mat work in it and its fits the setting that match sets as per the name of the stipulation i expect form submission match worker in the ring trading submission holds to secure a tapout victory

 

i quit is by any means mean match like watching someone in th head with a chair or threting to put someone eys out with the wooden leg so soon as ny one uses weapons or leaves the ring it become an i quit match or that is how o view it submission matches should be pure mat work and limb work as part of work toward the affomaetioned tap out victory iv never seen an i quit match end in clean submission holds for hpld victory ie wuth not weapon or brawking involved

 

its a match structure debate in my eyes

[Edwin]

not in the context i look at it a submission match should have of mat work in it and its fits the setting that match sets as per the name of the stipulation i expect form submission match worker in the ring trading submission holds to secure a tapout victory

You're free to look at things however you want to, but that's just being silly and overcritical.

 

Do you hate death matches because the guys don't actually die?

[Laz]

That's on you for eschewing the build and story of the match. Bret wanted to make Austin tap, Austin just wanted to kick Bret's was. They'd been involved for at least 5 months at that point. If you expected tons of technical wrestling then you probably expect a fast food burger to be healthy and filling.

[SPS]

Tiger-Dynamite was certainly a revolutionary match for its time, but I think it's aged rather poorly. It just doesn't measure up to the later high-flying showcases of guys like Mysterio or Liger. I would think that a match rated 5 stars should be timeless, something you could watch years, even decades later and still enjoy The non-finishes also don't help.

 

I like this topic idea as its fun to compare viewpoints. First off I personally have always felt the concept of the "5 star match" has changed dramatically over the years as the Observer and Dave's reputation grew.

 

From a fan looking back reading old Observers and watching the matches years later, for the time period of the 80's when it started to about 1994 or so it was mostly based on recommending matches you'd want to get a tape for and not always how "good" the match might've been in the sense of how workers or hardcore fans might judge it now based on how much more has been learned and how educated the viewers have gotten.

 

With how much the viewing audience has changed who care about these match ratings and how many guys have taken what Tiger Mask and Dynamite have done and put it together in a more impressive and complex result then going back and seeing a match like this now makes it look a lot less impressive.

 

While I get the point that some matches like films stand the test of time despite their age in a concept like this you have to keep in mind I don't think it was originally about what it's come to be and more so it was about sharing the most impressive matches of that current time without worrying about how it might've looked decades later.

 

So like films that haven't aged well, early 5 star matches shouldn't be seen as not worthy or overrated in my mind because the fans of the time it aired had no way of knowing what was to come later and it's not fair to compare them as being apples to apples with what fans think now.

 

Saying all that if I had to pick my most overrated it'd be a tie between either Elgin/Richards or Lee/Dijak. Both at the time and despite multiple rewatchings still have me scratching my head as to what Dave saw in them. Both were excessive in what they did and in the Lee/Dijak match just looked clumsy and sloppy as hell. It wasn't like either was innovating anything or before their time and they were of the era where they are both just mixtures of the worst tropes and cliches of modern indie wrestling for my tastes.

[Cap]

Judging the match in the context of genre expectations rather than the context of the feud just feels counter-intuitive to me. If they had come in and grappled it would have felt completely disjointed from the heat they had built (not to mention where each character was at that point). Why should the entire feud and the personas involved change direction just because the match is titled a "submission match"?

 

No one has to like a match they don't like, that is just where I feel a disconnect with your take on Austin/Breat

[Migs]

Cena vs. Punk 7/17/2011

I think this is a case of people confusing a match's build with the actual match. Punk's pipebomb promo was amazing, but the match itself never really stuck out to me and was sloppy at points. Finish was great, though.

 

 

This one hits at a core point in a match being 5* - this match is all about your emotional investment in it. If you care, that match is great and has held up as 5* on rewatch. It's tuned to the way the fans react and the emotion in that room. But I can see not being engaged and finding that match to be just fine.

[Laz]

Re: Elgin/Richards

The only thing about that match which stood out, even in its time, was that Elgin was presented as a legitimate competitor. It was cool seeing somebody not named Eddie Edwards take the fight to Davey, but the match itself still suffers greatly from both men's pitfalls. Maybe ***, if even.

 

I think Meltz just loves finishing stretches. Like, LOVES them. It seems all the crazy high praise he doles out goes to matches where the finishes are stupid hot, no matter the quality of work heading in.

[KawadaSmile]

Why doesn't he rate the Usos higher, then?

[Childs]

 

 

To me it's a matter of poor semantics only. Turn "submission" into "I quit" with the same match move per move, and Austin vs Hart doesn't have the issue of "well, they really don't try to submit each other" that can be a valid criticism because of the gimmick name only. But as it is, the match still is a classic to me.

not in the context i look at it a submission match should have of mat work in it and its fits the setting that match sets as per the name of the stipulation i expect form submission match worker in the ring trading submission holds to secure a tapout victory

 

i quit is by any means mean match like watching someone in th head with a chair or threting to put someone eys out with the wooden leg so soon as ny one uses weapons or leaves the ring it become an i quit match or that is how o view it submission matches should be pure mat work and limb work as part of work toward the affomaetioned tap out victory iv never seen an i quit match end in clean submission holds for hpld victory ie wuth not weapon or brawking involved

 

its a match structure debate in my eyes

You seem to judge wrestling based on extremely rigid parameters that exist only in your head, and you demonstrate little understanding of the context in which matches were actually worked. There is no debate to be had with you because you talk past everyone.

 

This argument is particularly stupid because to submit someone literally means to make them say I quit. There is no difference.

[shodate]

 

not in the context i look at it a submission match should have of mat work in it and its fits the setting that match sets as per the name of the stipulation i expect form submission match worker in the ring trading submission holds to secure a tapout victory

You're free to look at things however you want to, but that's just being silly and overcritical.

 

Do you hate death matches because the guys don't actually die?

 

as a rule not afan of death matches full stop minus of i know the worker can work outside that style like onita or sekimoto i have never liked pure deathmatch workers its just on in my taste but i give them credit for there part in history like in i HOF topic i have Kudo and Nakamura for example]

 

im ok with stipulation match here and then but you whole booking can not be foucsed around them that is how i see DM promotions

 

as i said about the dragon gate match i may not like that style but if good match of that style comes up i will recommend that match to people who like that style

 

and i say if some is not technique mided as me im technique and executionoplile when i wil rate workers or matches in the same way

[shodate]

 

 

To me it's a matter of poor semantics only. Turn "submission" into "I quit" with the same match move per move, and Austin vs Hart doesn't have the issue of "well, they really don't try to submit each other" that can be a valid criticism because of the gimmick name only. But as it is, the match still is a classic to me.

not in the context i look at it a submission match should have of mat work in it and its fits the setting that match sets as per the name of the stipulation i expect form submission match worker in the ring trading submission holds to secure a tapout victory

 

i quit is by any means mean match like watching someone in th head with a chair or threting to put someone eys out with the wooden leg so soon as ny one uses weapons or leaves the ring it become an i quit match or that is how o view it submission matches should be pure mat work and limb work as part of work toward the affomaetioned tap out victory iv never seen an i quit match end in clean submission holds for hpld victory ie wuth not weapon or brawking involved

 

its a match structure debate in my eyes

You seem to judge wrestling based on extremely rigid parameters that exist only in your head, and you demonstrate little understanding of the context in which matches were actually worked. There is no debate to be had with you because you talk past everyone.

 

This argument is particularly stupid because to submit someone literally means to make them say I quit. There is no difference.

 

 

 

i said i watch wrestling in vacuum

[Jetlag]

Bret wanted to make Austin tap, Austin just wanted to kick Bret's was.

 

Austin went for that Ground Octopus Hold though, which I still find a hilarious choice of hold for a southern redneck character. Austin mentioned Al Snow showed him that hold because he didn't have any submissions before the match.

[Laz]

 

 

Bret wanted to make Austin tap, Austin just wanted to kick Bret's was.

Austin went for that Ground Octopus Hold though, which I still find a hilarious choice of hold for a southern redneck character. Austin mentioned Al Snow showed him that hold because he didn't have any submissions before the match.

That still fits the theme of the feud and of the match. Austin wanted to break Bret physically and mentally by bringing the fight to him, he wanted to upstage him by any means necessary.

 

That's a match I really can't understand not "getting."

[shodate]

Judging the match in the context of genre expectations rather than the context of the feud just feels counter-intuitive to me. If they had come in and grappled it would have felt completely disjointed from the heat they had built (not to mention where each character was at that point). Why should the entire feud and the personas involved change direction just because the match is titled a "submission match"?

 

No one has to like a match they don't like, that is just where I feel a disconnect with your take on Austin/Breat

thank you for understanding i listed the reason i dislike a match and your not forcing me to try and change my view on

 

i have always Judge wrestling the way i judge it now .

i never try and force my views upon anyone [ that is why alot of the use the words Just my odd views at the end of stuff i post ] but i got attacked for doing that so i stopped that ]

 

side note

 

i also dislike the tlc matches for the reason of there are far better spotfest matches like Cybernertiocs in mexico and tag matches and M pro and others this is coming from someone who has a Strong dislike of spot fest style but i can admit ff there is a good match for people who like that style i will never like the young bucks style match [ fave my fave jr ever is sano] and then Otani but i would never call them the best id call either tanaka or liger the best overall and i wager few may agree with me in that .

[Loss]

For what it's worth, I agree that there's a difference between a submission match and an I Quit match that isn't just semantic. Submission matches are about submission. I Quit matches are about surrender.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not reading all of this at the moment but I have always been bothered by the fact that Austin didn't have a true submission hold coming into that match. That's a long standing criticism of mine going back 20 years and I don't think it is needlessly pedantic. .